165 réponses à ce sujet

[Nosblod]

DA:O had a female non-human companion, Shale, a dwarf golem...

[berrieh]

As to character types,

 

I think a thinking/intelligent Darkspawn female character would be great, preferably an Emissary (mage). That would be awesome and terrifying. 

 

I also think it's obvious we need a female dwarf companion again (so great in Awakening) and making her an LI would be even better. I don't care what class. 

 

But, most of all, I want a Qunari woman, preferably one who was put into the ranks of warriors (rare, as that's typically a male job, but not unheard of because the Qunari put everyone in the jobs they are best suited for) because of her superior skill in that area. I would like her to be middle-aged and battle-scarred and have left the Qun over something she "saw" while fighting, a legitimate deserter. One who threw her sword down for some reason and chose to be Tal-Vasoth. 

 

 

I never said I was opposed to any of the characters. I like all of them.  Would I prefer Iron Bull without scars, yes, I would.  I don't think you can argue women need to be uglied up and then say you're not against attractive women.  Since attractiveness is subjective, and as stated MANY times, not everyone finds the females in this game attractive, it would seem one would have no point to argue, as it has already happened.  Since it has already happened; the women are not all conventionally attractive, or attractive in the same way you would have to be arguing they must become more hideous, which does seem vindictive, :Sorry, you're not ugly enough!"  "I find some part of you attractive, so you are forcing women to conform to unfair standards of beauty!"  I really don' know what you're arguing.  I am all for other races of women showing up.  I don't think we need to mutilate them though.  Why do you?

 

No one has ever suggested all the companions need to be uglied. Just that female character types should not be limited by the Rule of Pretty. 

 

I am arguing that the appearances of women in-game should be as varied and interesting as the appearance of men and not limited by the need to be beautiful or even average/cute, the same way male companions are not limited that way. I'm arguing that the, "Whoa! Wait, a second?!? They can't be ugly, that would ruin my game!" crowd does not react the same way to "ugly" male companions or attach such fervor to it, and that this is very disturbing to me (much moreso than the lack of racial diversity among female companions, actually) and when that was brought into this thread by those people - after a few posters simply suggested interesting versions of female characters, like a hulking, scarred female Qunari (akin to Iron Bull but a woman essentially) - I decided to speak out against it. I will continue to because otherwise nothing will improve.  

 

The fact that some people think characters like Cassandra, Sera, and Josephine are already NOT attractive enough doesn't really say anything good about this aspect of the gaming community. So many people are excited for Iron Bull. No one has complained that he's not conventionally attractive enough. And Cole and Solas aren't any more attractive than the ladies people complain about, but have you seen nearly as many complaints about them? 

 

It has nothing to do with being against beauty. I'm all for some companions being beautiful (male and female) and some companions being ugly, battle-scarred, weird-looking, whatever. It should be an interesting mix. And developers like Bioware who clearly do care about diversity and giving the right messages about inclusion to fans should be very careful not to let socialized biases (like the fact that women/female characters derive more intrinsic value from attractiveness than men or need to be attractive) impact their work. I don't think Bioware wants to per se. I think they have good intentions. But if people like me aren't as vocal as people like you, it will never get fixed. 

 

DA:O had a female non-human companion, Shale, a dwarf golem...

 

She was pointed out if not in the OP on the first page of this thread; she was paid DLC. The request was as part of the core game. That said, Shale is awesome. 

[Muspade]

She was pointed out if not in the OP on the first page of this thread; she was paid DLC. The request was as part of the core game. That said, Shale is awesome. 

Shale was Included as free-DLC If you bought the game retail, to my knowledge. Don't know about digital, as I that was outside of my care-zone.

[berrieh]

Shale was Included as free-DLC If you bought the game retail, to my knowledge. Don't know about digital, as I that was outside of my care-zone.

 

Right, but that doesn't change the fact that she was DLC. It does not diminish what a great character Shale was, however. But why not include that concept with the main game? Likely because it was developed later. I wonder if that had to do with the Rule of Pretty (not saying it did, and honestly wouldn't have even thought it until I saw some of the extreme responses here even to the suggestion of a wider array of female companion looks). I agree entirely that Shale is exactly the type of character the OP is suggesting we see more of, but what about not making them optional content that is presented as slightly outside the main game? 

 

Honestly, I wasn't riled up when this thread started - but when people act like allowing female characters to be unattractive ruins their games, it does bother me. Immensely. 

 

I want to be clear on Shale - she was perfect, she was awesome. She should absolutely be "counted" to some degree, but not as a base game character. The OP mentioned specifically that the ratio in base games was extremely poor and did show evidence. 

[DaySeeker]

There have been at least two threads on how strange Iron Bull looks.  People have complained about Dorian's mustache and skin color.  Many people have wanted Varric to be a love interest even though he is one of the "unattractive" races, dwarf.  Many people think Solas looks silly and have complained about his baldness.  People have complained that Solas should be a love interest for everyone.  I have not seen anyone argue that all females must be attractive on this thread.  I don't see the disparity being referred to in regards to attractiveness.

[Gwydden]

As to character types,

 

I think a thinking/intelligent Darkspawn female character would be great, preferably an Emissary (mage). That would be awesome and terrifying. 

Are darkspawn even a sexual species? Because they are, they are likely all male. Which is a pity, because I actually like the idea.

 

No one has ever suggested all the companions need to be uglied. Just that female character types should not be limited by the Rule of Pretty. 

As it has never been the case...

 

I am arguing that the appearances of women in-game should be as varied and interesting as the appearance of men and not limited by the need to be beautiful or even average/cute, the same way male companions are not limited that way. 

*Tries to think of male companions who weren't somewhere between beautiful and "average".*

 

...

 

*Fails.*

 

I'm arguing that the, "Whoa! Wait, a second?!? They can't be ugly, that would ruin my game!" crowd does not react the same way to "ugly" male companions or attach such fervor to it, and that this is very disturbing to me (much moreso than the lack of racial diversity among female companions, actually) and when that was brought into this thread by those people - after a few posters simply suggested interesting versions of female characters, like a hulking, scarred female Qunari (akin to Iron Bull but a woman essentially) - I decided to speak out against it. I will continue to because otherwise nothing will improve.  

There isn't a single male companion ever in a DA game that can be called "ugly", in my oh-so-humble opinion. In fact, they're all fairly attractive.

 

The fact that some people think characters like Cassandra, Sera, and Josephine are already NOT attractive enough doesn't really say anything good about this aspect of the gaming community. So many people are excited for Iron Bull. No one has complained that he's not conventionally attractive enough. And Cole and Solas aren't any more attractive than the ladies people complain about, but have you seen nearly as many complaints about them? 

Ah, yes, the fact that attractiveness is subjective doesn't say anything good about your position. I very much agree. I wonder if the reason people don't complain about IB, Cole, and Solas not being "conventionally" attractive is that... they don't agree with that statement? There's nothing unattractive about them. Zero. Nada. Zilch.

 

It has nothing to do with being against beauty. I'm all for some companions being beautiful (male and female) and some companions being ugly, battle-scarred, weird-looking, whatever. It should be an interesting mix.

Leaving aside your liberal use of the terms "beautiful" and "ugly", which really doesn't help you case at all...

 

Why should it be?

[Gwydden]

Honestly, I wasn't riled up when this thread started - but when people act like allowing female characters to be unattractive ruins their games, it does bother me. Immensely. 

I would actually be perfectly okay with your opinion, and even largely support it, if it weren't for the little, slightly annoying fact that you're trying to push a personal preference as a moral imperative.

[berrieh]

I would actually be perfectly okay with your opinion, and even largely support it, if it weren't for the little, slightly annoying fact that you're trying to push a personal preference as a moral imperative.

 

I would not consider it a moral imperative or a personal preference. I would consider it an emotional plea. I, as a female gamer, just want to have a place in gaming and feel comfortable, and I am routinely made uncomfortable. Less so here. I actually love Bioware for their inclusion and the forums for the most part, but the suggestion that people were wrong for wanting women who didn't fit the Rule of Pretty (made on the very first page, by some posters) does bother me - it bothers me because it threatens my very place in this community. I have seen gaming get better. But not quickly enough. And I always feel like we will slide backwards again. 

 

I, personally, don't really care if NPCs are ugly, pretty, or in between, but I do care that the Rule of Pretty for female characters is going strong even in a community like Bioware. It makes me very afraid that gaming will never get better. That's especially scary in a forum for a game that seems to be a step forward in so many ways.

 

Seriously, I want to clarify this - I said it bothered me immensely. I said it riled me up. Where did I say it was a moral imperative? I'm trying to explain why it's personally important to me is all. 

 

There have been at least two threads on how strange Iron Bull looks.  People have complained about Dorian's mustache and skin color.  Many people have wanted Varric to be a love interest even though he is one of the "unattractive" races, dwarf.  Many people think Solas looks silly and have complained about his baldness.  People have complained that Solas should be a love interest for everyone.  I have not seen anyone argue that all females must be attractive on this thread.  I don't see the disparity being referred to in regards to attractiveness.

 

Your post on the very first thread argues that females should be attractive. I read through your post history (recent, not the whole thing) to see if you had said anything in relation to male companions/NPCs and didn't see it. If you have, then I apologize, but since you decided to come into a thread about female companions to argue against a wider array of female companions, I took it as an endorsement of the Rule of Pretty. 

 

Are darkspawn even a sexual species? Because they are, they are likely all male. Which is a pity, because I actually like the idea.

 

It's possible darkspawns are all male. But it's never been confirmed, so I don't know. That could be a flaw with that idea, for sure. 

 

*Tries to think of male companions who weren't somewhere between beautiful and "average".*

 

 

Oghren, Iron Bull, Solas, and if we're including ME games (which have more problematic ratios on this) Wrex, Garrus (once scarred), Thane, Grunt. I'm not counting Zaeed for the same reason I'm not counting Shale. Maybe Sten. If Leliana were to be horribly scarred, do you think people would have the same lack of reaction as they do to a scarred Garrus? 

 

I do agree that attractiveness is subjective, but I feel the Rule of Pretty is definitely applied to female characters more (just as it is applied to female actresses more) and that it is one of the reasons we haven't been given a wider array of female companions. I do think Bioware has done a better job than most. But I feel if people who appreciate this become complacent, we are not helping Bioware move forward. I think Bioware wants to be as diverse as possible, but I know there are market forces that work against them in that. 

[Lady Nuggins]

I never said I was opposed to any of the characters. I like all of them.  Would I prefer Iron Bull without scars, yes, I would.  I don't think you can argue women need to be uglied up and then say you're not against attractive women.  Since attractiveness is subjective, and as stated MANY times, not everyone finds the females in this game attractive, it would seem one would have no point to argue, as it has already happened.  Since it has already happened; the women are not all conventionally attractive, or attractive in the same way you would have to be arguing they must become more hideous, which does seem vindictive, :Sorry, you're not ugly enough!"  "I find some part of you attractive, so you are forcing women to conform to unfair standards of beauty!"  I really don' know what you're arguing.  I am all for other races of women showing up.  I don't think we need to mutilate them though.  Why do you?

 

This is an incredible leap of logic to make.  Asking for a more diverse range of character designs is arguing they must all become hideous?  A person can't want unconventional characters as well as attractive ones?  Nobody is even saying there is anything wrong with the existing characters, just that it would be nice if they could mix it up more in the future.

 

As for "mutilating" them, scars are just an interesting character feature.  They tell a story.  I'm sure that Iron Bull's will say something important about his history, just as Zaeed's and Garrus's did.

[DaySeeker]

This is an incredible leap of logic to make.  Asking for a more diverse range of character designs is arguing they must all become hideous?  A person can't want unconventional characters as well as attractive ones?  Nobody is even saying there is anything wrong with the existing characters, just that it would be nice if they could mix it up more in the future.

 

As for "mutilating" them, scars are just an interesting character feature.  They tell a story.  I'm sure that Iron Bull's will say something important about his history, just as Zaeed's and Garrus's did.

 

It wouldn't be an incredible leap of logic if the posters had only asked for more of a range of characters- which is what I have also said I was for, and I have repeatedly pointed out there is a range of female character types and that many have complained they weren't attractive.  However, if posters have consistently posted they wanted characters to be less attractive and have explained that by saying the ladies need to scarred and ugly then it isn't a stretch of logic.  It's not really a discussion if posts are miscategorized and salient points ignored.  

 

So again, what is being asked for, Cassandra has a scar.  Other threads have complained that almost all the NPC's are unattractive, both male and female.  So, again, I state- I would love to see females of other races in the games, but Dragon Age has not had a problem showing a variety of women.  Other games are horrible with this- no question.  I do not see this as a problem with Dragon Age.  SO what is it that is being asked for that does not already exist in the game?  Yes there is not a female dwarf or qunari companion.  I don't think anyone on the thread has argued that these wouldn't be cool to see.  

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Black Halfelf of Revani decent. 

[berrieh]

Su lu Pi, Wouldn't a half-elf just look human?

 

So again, what is being asked for, Cassandra has a scar.  

 

You know, maybe she does. I didn't even realize it. I thought those were just temporary injuries in the cutscene because they're so faint and simple. But let's say she does, it's clearly a big difference between her scar and Garrus/Iron Bull. (I tried to post the pictures here, but it won't let me from my phone.)

 

Look at her ladylike scar compared to losing an eye. Even Zaeed's scars look more intense

 

This is just another example of The Rule of Pretty (potentially). They could give Cassandra a scar, maybe (she doesn't have one in DA2), but they couldn't really mess her up, not like they did Garrus. Why? 

 

I'm not even saying I want Cassandra to have a scar per se, but I want it not out of the question for a woman to lose an eye, be mutilated, etc, when male characters have been. 

[Asdrubael Vect]

Black Halfelf of Revani decent. 

only if his/her father was a elf..at least it would be new

 

i personaly kinda sick of those elfblooded humans

 

it would be better to have normal non-humans

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

duno but we havent had one yet have we?

and i suppose its perantage like Lygers and Tigons.

[Umbar]

I don't know about anyone else, but why does 'non-attractive' automatically mean 'ugly' and why does 'ugly' mean 'scarred/mutilated'? People who are average-looking or even considered unattractive by a majority sample don't have to be mutilated to be considered such. Saying 'Cassandra having a scar' makes her ugly and so we don't need a character who is average-looking a really strange argument to make

[Ianamus]

It gets even worse when you look at the female LI's. Every female LI in Dragon Age is either an elf or a human, and in Mass Effect the least human-looking female LI (Excluding Diana Allers) is Tali... who turned out to look practically human anyway.

 

With the male LI's we've had Thane, Garrus, Iron Bull... even Javik is a one night stand option in the Citadel DLC!

 

It's like they are scared to do anything with the female LI's (and companions in general) that isn't conventionally attractive.

[Decepticon Leader Sully]

Scaring is hot in my book personaly id like to see more horrific scarring.

i had a pretty good conversation in the DA2 forum about this arround Xmas.

[DaySeeker]

It gets even worse when you look at the female LI's. Every female LI in Dragon Age is either an elf or a human, and in Mass Effect the least human-looking female LI (Excluding Diana Allers) is Tali... who turned out to look practically human anyway.

 

With the male LI's we've had Thane, Garrus, Iron Bull... even Javik is a one night stand option in the Citadel DLC!

 

It's like they are scared to do anything with the female LI's (and companions in general) that isn't conventionally attractive.

 

Thane was very attractive, Garrus became a love interest because many fans called for it, but was not one originally.  Seriously, who do you think is going to be romanced more, the female elcor or the asari?  With limited resources aren't we going to choose the one more players would enjoy?

[SpiritMuse]

I don't know about anyone else, but why does 'non-attractive' automatically mean 'ugly' and why does 'ugly' mean 'scarred/mutilated'? People who are average-looking or even considered unattractive by a majority sample don't have to be mutilated to be considered such. Saying 'Cassandra having a scar' makes her ugly and so we don't need a character who is average-looking a really strange argument to make

It doesn't, necessarily. It's just one of the options offered for non-conventionally-attractive females. Another is non-human "creature" alien females (think Krogan), whether they be scarred or not. And all alongside the existing conventionally attractive females.

Basically we want female Zaeed and female Wrex standing alongside the likes of Miranda.

[Ianamus]

Thane was very attractive, Garrus became a love interest because many fans called for it, but was not one originally.  Seriously, who do you think is going to be romanced more, the female elcor or the asari?  With limited resources aren't we going to choose the one more players would enjoy?

 

In settings with so many different races it's boring to have the female LI's always be limited to one or two of the most human-looking ones. Thane and Garrus actually looked alien, and they were both popular, so why can't we have female Turians or Drell as love interests?

 

Tali was already an incredibly popular character, but instead of keeping her a mystery or making her actually look like an alien species they made her look like a human with purple skin, glowing eyes and a few lines on her face.

 

The issue is there at the developer level as well. Gaider has said before that he's unsure about female Dwarf or Qunari LI's because they are too "fetishy", as if having Iron Bull be an LI and #RideTheBull being so popular isn't the epitome of "fetishy".

[daveliam]

duno but we havent had one yet have we?

and i suppose its perantage like Lygers and Tigons.

 

We haven't had a half-elf, half-human with Rivaini blood.  But......

 

Spoiler

It's been heavily hinted at, without official confirmation, that Alistair is half-elf.  His father was Maric and his mother is likely Fiona.  It's been confirmed that the timeline for his birth aligns with The Calling, which is when Fiona became pregnant with Maric's child.  So, in reality, we've already had a half-elf companion and LI. 

[Nightshade715]

I would love to see another female dwarf companion in any of the future Dragon Age games. I simply adore Sigrun.

 

I wouldn't mind having female qunari companion, maybe she could be a former Tamasrran. Such a companion would certainly give us more insight on Qunari culture.

And this. I would love to hear more about the Qunari culture from someone who's role in the society is different than other Qunari companions we've seen so far.

[Lady Nuggins]

It wouldn't be an incredible leap of logic if the posters had only asked for more of a range of characters- which is what I have also said I was for, and I have repeatedly pointed out there is a range of female character types and that many have complained they weren't attractive.  However, if posters have consistently posted they wanted characters to be less attractive and have explained that by saying the ladies need to scarred and ugly then it isn't a stretch of logic.  It's not really a discussion if posts are miscategorized and salient points ignored.  

 

So again, what is being asked for, Cassandra has a scar.  Other threads have complained that almost all the NPC's are unattractive, both male and female.  So, again, I state- I would love to see females of other races in the games, but Dragon Age has not had a problem showing a variety of women.  Other games are horrible with this- no question.  I do not see this as a problem with Dragon Age.  SO what is it that is being asked for that does not already exist in the game?  Yes there is not a female dwarf or qunari companion.  I don't think anyone on the thread has argued that these wouldn't be cool to see.  

 

Dragon Age does offer a wide range of female characters--as long as they are human or elven.  If DA were a universe where only humans existed, then it would be an impressive range of female character designs.  But that's the point--we're talking about a fantasy universe, and people are asking for fantasy races.  So pointing out that Cassandra has short hair and a delicate little scar on her cheekbone isn't really satisfying what people are asking for in this thread.  

 

It's just a continuing pattern with both Dragon Age and Mass Effect that the more alien and inhuman characters are almost always going to be male.  Why is there no female dwarf or qunari companion?  Why no female krogan or turian or salarian companion?  Why do female characters always have to specifically be of the races that happen to look the sexiest?

 

Thane was very attractive, Garrus became a love interest because many fans called for it, but was not one originally.  Seriously, who do you think is going to be romanced more, the female elcor or the asari?  With limited resources aren't we going to choose the one more players would enjoy?

 

Right, but we don't know that fans wouldn't also respond to a female turian, because the option never came up.  Garrus was great, because he proved that good writing and good voice acting could make people respond to a character even if they looked less human.  Before I played ME myself, I kept seeing pictures of Garrus floating around and hearing people talk about how dreamy he was, and I really didn't understand how they could possibly romance that.  

 

They wouldn't make a romanceable elcor, just as they never made a romanceable krogan.  But as a non-romanceable character, why not a female elcor?  I would take her everywhere in my party.