105 réponses à ce sujet

[blahblahblah]

She does know that the wardens don't know - but to be fair the most clear demonstration of this I remember is a romance banter between Alistair and Morrigan where she's clearly probing him to see what he knows - so many might not have heard it. And, only when I heard it again after the DR convo I realised its full significance. There is also that line in the ritual conversation itself "why didn't you tell me" or something - which I think refers to the archdemon death situation. I'm sure there are others, but I can't recall detail (I do wonder if she's testing you to see what your reaction is with her "if there is one thing I have learnt, is that one must survive" convo)

 

Source?

[DinkyD]

Source?

 

here:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=W5HPt6R8iBY

[blahblahblah]

here:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=W5HPt6R8iBY

It didn't change anything though. Even if she tell you about the Archdemon, it is only you or Alistair will only kill unless you run away for help and leave Ferelden destroyed by Darkspawn.

[darkmage84]

You may be right, but that video doesn't confirm that she knew they were unaware of what would be needed to end the blight.  The question she asked would be no less relevant, if that stipulation was not needed in order to end the blight.  And considering the Riordan says that it is kept secret for a reason, Alistar's avoiding of the question would confirm nothing. 

[Br3admax]

Grey Wardens keep it a secret, it's for a reason.

Morrigan does it, obvious betrayal.

 

 

Uh huh. 

[darkmage84]

And the actual dark ritual scene, you have the option of asking "So you knew about the sacrifice before Riordan told me?"  And Morrigan's response was "I did, would you have believe me if I had been the one to tell you?  I have my doubts."  So even here she only confirms that she knew, but not that she did not know that you (or more specifically Alistar) were unaware.

[DinkyD]

It didn't change anything though. Even if she tell you about the Archdemon, it is only you or Alistair will only kill unless you run away for help and leave Ferelden destroyed by Darkspawn.

 

You are likely right, but isn't it said often in these forums that leaving Ferelden is what Duncan would have done in the pc's shoes anyway? Presumaby partly because he has this knowledge.

 

And if it doesn't matter, then she's got nothing to lose by telling you. Maybe she's concerned that you'll turn tail and run, knowing the truth? And really, as I said above, I'd expect someone who called me sister just to tell for the sake of it, whether it helps or not

 

 

You may be right, but that video doesn't confirm that she knew they were unaware of what would be needed to end the blight.  The question she asked would be no less relevant, if that stipulation was not needed in order to end the blight.  And considering the Riordan says that it is kept secret for a reason, Alistar's avoiding of the question would confirm nothing. 

 

Fair point, but it's difficult not for me to interpret it that way I describe, given the devs love of fore shadowing. Morrigan seems to think she has learned something significant to a precise question, and it's not as if Alistair sounds like he's being evasive.

[darkmage84]

and fwiw, if morrigan was so manipulative, she would have just got pregnant and not said anything.  I don't think there is an actual ritual, as much as the fetus would bear the taint and thus the arch demon would seek it out.

[Battlebloodmage]

I had a baby with her after being dumped by Alistair, so it works out fine for me, but female Warden who befriended her should allow her be softer as well. Not every problem can be solved with a penis.

[LadyLaLa]

Not every problem can be solved with a penis.

That right there is a perfect way to put it. She softened just as much from the "sisters" angle as she did from the lover angle

[DinkyD]

And the actual dark ritual scene, you have the option of asking "So you knew about the sacrifice before Riordan told me?"  And Morrigan's response was "I did, would you have believe me if I had been the one to tell you?  I have my doubts."  So even here she only confirms that she knew, but not that she did not know that you (or more specifically Alistar) were unaware.

 

It's more of what she doesn't say I suppose. There's enough wiggle room to believe that she didn't know if you wish so, but I think it's strongly intimated that she did. She's not likely to flat out admit it anyway. And one really has to carve out doubt.

 

And if she didn't know you didn't know, that let's her of the hook a bit, but there's still the issue that she keeps that info to herself, given its seriousness you'd expect her to mention it anyway, to find out if you know?  She can't know that you do know can she? (I think I'll stop here as this is getting a bit convoluted!) "Well, I thought you knew" might come across as a very lame excuse to a pc that trusted her.

 

 

Grey Wardens keep it a secret, it's for a reason.

Morrigan does it, obvious betrayal.

 

 

Uh huh. 

 

 

Not obvious no. But that's a good point - if you think that the wardens are remiss for not telling two junior wardens that would not have been expected to be near the archdemon anyway or very unlikely to be in a position to take the final blow,  then what Morrigan does is far worse as there is a clear and present danger.

[Br3admax]

Not obvious no. But that's a good point - if you think that the wardens are remiss for not telling two junior wardens that would not have been expected to be near the archdemon anyway or very unlikely to be in a position to take the final blow,  then what Morrigan does is far worse as there is a clear and present danger.

Hypocrisy at its finest. Right here. The only clear and present danger comes right before the final battle. 

[Who Knows]

Maybe the friendship route for female Wardens is decided by:

1. "Defeating" Flemeth and giving Morrigan the grimoire

2. Persuading Alistair or Loghain to do the dark ritual

[DinkyD]

Hypocrisy at its finest. Right here. The only clear and present danger comes right before the final battle. 

 

1 - The two wardens are alone in Ferelden remaining to stop the blight. Their companion knows how the blight is ended, but does not say. One out of two will die. The two may be friends or lovers. They are not warned.

 

2 - The alternative is that they are one among hundreds, with the seniors lining up to take the final blow first.

 

If I was told I had to try to defend one state of affairs, I'd try to defend the latter.

[LadyLaLa]

Maybe the friendship route for female Wardens is decided by:
1. "Defeating" Flemeth and giving Morrigan the grimoire
2. Persuading Alistair or Loghain to do the dark ritual

Not to mention choosing not to stab her in Witch Hunt

1 - The two wardens are alone in Ferelden remaining to stop the blight. Their companion knows how the blight is ended, but does not say. One out of two will die. The two may be friends or lovers. They are not warned.

2 - The alternative is that they are one among hundreds, with the seniors lining up to take the final blow first.

If I was told I had to try to defend one state of affairs, I'd try to defend the latter.

Personally, I can see why she didn't want to tell you about the Dark Ritual, particularly if you romance really anyone in the game. Think about it:

1: The fact that a Warden has to die is a terrible fact, and for 3/4 of the game, at least, it seems the PC and Alistair are the only two left.

2: If the Warden is male, there's no promise that they've formed a relationship. If the PC is female, she CLEARLY doesn't like Alistair and he doesn't like her. If the Warden IS in a romantic relationship with her, then how is she supposed to say that in order for your character to have more than a 50-50 chance of survival, you need to conceive a child RIGHT before the battle, whether you're ready to cope with that fact or not.

3: If the PC is female, she has to ask you to convince either Alistair or Loghain to sleep with her. That's just awkward, there's no other way to put it


I will admit that she's harsh, she speaks her mind and she keeps her secrets and she's very pragmatic but I honestly can't blame her. Not everyone is an open book, not everyone is going to be easy to like and some people are not going to be working to save every kitten stuck in a tree. That doesn't make her a bad person, that makes her a realist. I admire that

[Br3admax]

1 - The two wardens are alone in Ferelden remaining to stop the blight. Their companion knows how the blight is ended, but does not say. One out of two will die. The two may be friends or lovers. They are not warned.

Except it's not two wardens fighting the Blight. It's two Warden's rummaging around Ferelden and doing everything but combating the Blight. Finally, one of them has been a Grey Warden for over half a year. If the Wardens didn't tell him, no one else is obligated to. 

 

 

2 - The alternative is that they are one among hundreds, with the seniors lining up to take the final blow first.

There were only a few dozen in Ferelden. Alistair only personally attached to one. Who also happened to be the leader of the Wardens. Said nothing. Even if this weren't the case, the knowledge doesn't make anything more or less urgent. The situation remains exactly the same in literally every way. 

 

 

If I was told I had to try to defend one state of affairs, I'd try to defend the latter.

That's great. Has absolutely no bearing on the logic of your argument. One is the actual Order itself keeping its recruits in the dark. The Joining, the Calling, the archdemon, the nightmares, the mind control. The other is Morrigan simply not telling you that you'd die, which honestly should be common knowledge to Alistair since he pretend to know so much about them. 

[Ryzaki]

Meh I feel Morrigan holding the information was manipulative on her part and she did it for an obvious reason so the warden would me more liable to take her deal.

 

Blew up in her face on most of my playthroughs though. Most of my wardens laughed in her face and pointed at Loghains room sorry honey don't let the door hit your ass on the way out.

[DinkyD]

Except it's not two wardens fighting the Blight. It's two Warden's rummaging around Ferelden and doing everything but combating the Blight. Finally, one of them has been a Grey Warden for over half a year. If the Wardens didn't tell him, no one else is obligated to. 

There were only a few dozen in Ferelden. Alistair only personally attached to one. Who also happened to be the leader of the Wardens. Said nothing. Even if this weren't the case, the knowledge doesn't make anything more or less urgent. The situation remains exactly the same in literally every way. 

That's great. Has absolutely no bearing on the logic of your argument. One is the actual Order itself keeping it's recruits in the dark. The Joining, the Calling, the archdemon, the nightmares, the mind control. The other is Morrigan simply not telling you that you'd die, which honestly should be common knowledge to Alistair since he pretend to know so much about them. 

 

So Morrigan has no ethical obligation to tell the wardens because no one else already has? So they were let down by someone else so that excuses Morrigan? Because Alistair should know, it's OK to keep quiet, even in the case where she knows he doesn't?

[Ryzaki]

and fwiw, if morrigan was so manipulative, she would have just got pregnant and not said anything.  I don't think there is an actual ritual, as much as the fetus would bear the taint and thus the arch demon would seek it out.

 

Gaider did say there was an actual ritual. It's not just sex.

 

And it'd been obvious when no one died.

 

Not to mention her getting preggers in the first place requires a warden to sleep with her. If you didn't romance her her coming up to you for sex would be rather suspicious. And she had a snowballs chance in hell of seducing Alistair.

[Br3admax]

So Morrigan has no ethical obligation to tell the wardens because no one else already has? 

No, because Morrigan doesn't have your ethics. Sorry to tell you this, but a woman raised in a swamp by a mega abomination doesn't think the same way you do. 

 

 

So they were let down by someone else so that excuses Morrigan? Because Alistair should know, it's OK to keep quiet, even in the case where she knows he doesn't?

Who cares if it's "okay?" It's not a betrayal, your knowledge would not solve anything, and in the end, the only time the ritual would have worked would be when she told you anyway. 

[DinkyD]

No, because Morrigan doesn't have your ethics. Sorry to tell you this, but a woman raised in a swamp by a mega abomination doesn't think the same way you do. 

Who cares if it's "okay?" It's not a betrayal, your knowledge would not solve anything, and in the end, the only time the ritual would have worked would be when she told you anyway. 

 

I think that impending death is information of importance enough to understand, even if she was raised in a swamp. Wasn't survival Flemeth's primary lesson? She does understand the impact of the information she holds.

 

Saying that it makes no difference assumes that your warden couldn't have made any choices differently if they'd known earlier. That is very debatable. Waiting for a full compliment of wardens for example.

 

Yes, Morrigan does have a different idea of ethics, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion. I don't think that Morrigan is that divorced from normal ideas of morality that holding that kind of information, for her own purposes or independent of them, can be seen as totally without reproach, that is all.

[Red of Rivia]

I agree that Morrigan did not betray the Warden,she makes clear her way to thinking in dialogues. However, Duncan had no time to say that the Warden has to make a sacrifice to the Old God dies,after all he was not sure it was a Blight and if someone would kill that dragon would be him. (Sure he could have warned about this for care)

Morrigan gives you the option to get out alive,of course there is the famous ''law of equivalent exchange'' you can get out alive, but will have a cost, the cost is getting to her ''soul'' of an Old God. If this go against Warden moral concepts,I think the only way is follow the motto ''In death,sacrifice.''

[Red of Rivia]

Grey Wardens weren't created to kill Old Gods. The were created to end Blights. Morrigan's Ritual served that purpose.

You are right to some extent,but in theory if you kill their leader,the Old God,will end the Blight per hour ( disregarding their pick in the expansion ) then somehow they are designed to kill the Archdemon,after all the Blight only happens on their behalf.