46 réponses à ce sujet

[JasonShepard]

If their true purpose is to prevent a cataclysmic organic/synthetic war, why not just periodically come back and wipe out all synthetics? Seems like it would be a lot easier--we already saw how trivial it was to wipe out a whole bunch of Geth at the end of ME2 afterall.

 

The answer is that they don't really care about the fate of organics at all. They just want us for the gray goo.

 

If they leave us be, then eventually we'll overtake the Reapers technologically. Then, if we create synthetics, those synthetics will be more powerful than the Reapers. And the Reapers won't be able to 'protect' us from them.

 

In short - they don't trust us to grow up.

Modifié par JasonShepard, 09 novembre 2014 - 02:13 .

[Valmar]

I think all my time spent on forums has made me develop a new pet peeve for people using "logical" in their argument, as if it fully validates them and leaves them free of any flaw.

 

If they leave us be, statistically, we'll create machines that will wipe us out. That is the pattern that has existed for billions of years in the Mass Effect universe. No cycle was even able to surpass the Leviathan's so I really don't see any of us overtaking the Reapers, the one who took over the Leviathan's. It's extremely arrogant and egotistical to think our cycle is so special that WE would had made it.

[JasonShepard]

Logical answer?

 

 

I think all my time spent on forums has made me develop a new pet peeve for people using "logical" in their argument, as if it fully validates them and leaves them free of any flaw.

 

That's... not what I mean by using the word "logical".

 

But, fair point, it does come across as arrogant, declaring that I'm making a logical argument as if everyone else here was being illogical. And putting those two words there didn't really add anything to the post. So I'll remove it.

 

***

 

If they leave us be, statistically, we'll create machines that will wipe us out. That is the pattern that has existed for billions of years in the Mass Effect universe. No cycle was even able to surpass the Leviathan's so I really don't see any of us overtaking the Reapers, the one who took over the Leviathan's. It's extremely arrogant and egotistical to think our cycle is so special that WE would had made it.

 

Was this in response to my post or not? It reads as if it could be, so I'll assume it was.

 

I wasn't talking about the Reapers leaving us alone. I was talking about the OP's suggestion - with the Reapers regularly coming in and wiping out any synthetics that organics might make (rather than hitting the reset button every cycle). I certainly wasn't talking about our cycle being at all special.

 

If the Reapers consistently prevent synthetic revolutions, organics will continue to advance. Eventually, the organics will overtake the Reapers (since the Reapers are not doing any active research). At that point, any synthetics created by organics would also be technologically superior to the Reapers - which would mean the Reapers would be unable to protect to prevent any subsequent synthetic revolutions, and the organics would ultimately get wiped out.

 

Hence, the Reapers can't afford to just wipe out synthetics.

[Valmar]

That's... not what I mean by using the word "logical".

 

But, fair point, it does come across as arrogant, declaring that I'm making a logical argument as if everyone else here was being illogical. And putting those two words there didn't really add anything to the post. So I'll remove it.

 

***

 

 

Was this in response to my post or not? It reads as if it could be, so I'll assume it was.

 

Hm. That is surprisingly mature of you. You have my respect sir, even if I don't share your view on certain things.

 

Also, to note, it was referring to your post but not in the sense that you are the only one that does it or directly personal to you. I see the use of the term 'logical' all over the place in forums. Rarely does it seem to do more than just prompt the position of the poster and undermine any alternative perspective. Hence why its become a pet peeve of mine.

 

 

I wasn't talking about the Reapers leaving us alone. I was talking about the OP's suggestion - with the Reapers regularly coming in and wiping out any synthetics that organics might make (rather than hitting the reset button every cycle). I certainly wasn't talking about our cycle being at all special.

 

If the Reapers consistently prevent synthetic revolutions, organics will continue to advance. Eventually, the organics will overtake the Reapers (since the Reapers are not doing any active research). At that point, any synthetics created by organics would also be technologically superior to the Reapers - which would mean the Reapers would be unable to protect to prevent any subsequent synthetic revolutions, and the organics would ultimately get wiped out.

 

Hence, the Reapers can't afford to just wipe out synthetics.

 

I was a bit too harsh with my reply since I didn't take the quote you were responding too in full context with your post. My mistake.

 

I still don't see our cycle ever surpassing the reaper's. If our cycle was immortal, yes, I can see it being a risk. However we are not. Even if our own creations don't wipe us out eventually something else will. Though, if any species was going to be able to accomplish this from our cycle it would very likely be the rachni. However given how they're constantly being wiped out by other organics this is not a sure-thing.

 

The Leviathan's and starbrat tried other solutions in the past, I find it hard to imagine that 'just blow up the machines' wasn't one of them. Anything we can conceive of the starbrat must had already tried. If the solution is simple to us should it not be equally as obvious to the billion year old intelligence? 

 

Wiping out the machines after we've made them would just be a waste of effort. The first time we build them they'll come and wipe them out and leave. Yet we still have the knowledge on how to make them. If organics have proven anything its that we're all quite insane. We'll always repeat past mistakes thinking "well, this time it'll be different because I know better". It is more efficient to just start over with a clean slate rather than constantly policing unpredictable organics who keep digging themselves deeper.

 

I wouldn't be too quick to assert that reaper's do not do any active research. They were studying the biology of organics in this cycle through the collectors. Leviathan mentions that the reapers studied and 'perfected' their indoctrination over the cycles. Clearly the reaper's are not beyond improving themselves when they feel it necessary. That doesn't mean they're still improving on their design (which they and Leviathan both view as 'perfect' already) but it is something to keep in mind.

In the end we both agree that just wiping out synthetics wouldn't be viable for the reaper's plans. Our reasoning for this conclusion however is different.

[nukembaby]

 

 

“This explains why the captured humans were rendered into their base components. Destructive analyst. They were dissected down to the atomic level. That data could be stored on an AI's neural network. The knowledge and essence of billions of individuals complied into a single synthetic identity. The ultimate goal would be to upload all humans into this reaper mind. “

 

 

How convenient. AI are inextricably tied to their hardware and separating their programming from it alters their personality and who they are--but humans aren't. Why? Because bias!

[SporkFu]

It's not like they ever do anything with the civilizations they harvest, anyway... except harvest the next civilization, that is. 

[Valmar]

How convenient. AI are inextricably tied to their hardware and separating their programming from it alters their personality and who they are--but humans aren't. Why? Because bias!

 

Arguably this bias actually works in the favor of the organics, not against them.

[nukembaby]

Arguably this bias actually works in the favor of the organics, not against them.

That's only if you think it's a better existence to be disassembled atom by atom and your consciousness integrated into a Reaper. We don't really know since we never hear from those that have undergone this--all we hear is from the entity that is Sovereign or Harbinger, etc. And if that's really what we become, ie Sovereign and Harbinger, then it can be argued that the process is negative because those two were huge a**holes.

[Valmar]

That's only if you think it's a better existence to be disassembled atom by atom and your consciousness integrated into a Reaper.

 

Though nothing you think is really valid prior to it happening. A change like that would completely alter your perception. Like a caveman suddenly having the knowledge of 20th century man beamed into his brain. I doubt he would had wanted it but after he has it suddenly omg, this is awesome.

 

Hell the reaper experience even changed Legion.

 

"We will build our own future! We reject the reapers!"

Gets upgrades and is 'awakened' to what it is like to be 'alive'.

"WE NEED THIS! WE MUST HAVE THIS!"

 

 

We don't really know since we never hear from those that have undergone this--all we hear is from the entity that is Sovereign or Harbinger, etc.

 

It all depends on your perspective. Like I said the reapers seem, given what the lore tells us, to be essentially the organic equivalent of the geth consensus. All these minds linked together to form one consensus, they no longer view themselves as individuals. Your consensus is conjoined with that of billions of others to form one entity. One nation. Go back in time and talk to your 6 year old self, I bet the person you were is radically different from the person you are now. In some ways you could say the person you were is gone since you're not the same. Yet we don't perceive it that way, you are still you no matter how much you change. You may reflect back on how much of a different person you used to be but that's usually the extent of it. You are still you, even if you think of 'younger you' as someone else. You are always you to yourself. Perhaps the harvest is not so utterly different than that. The power of perspective.

 

And if that's really what we become, ie Sovereign and Harbinger, then it can be argued that the process is negative because those two were huge a**holes.

 

It can be argued that, yes, but its entirely subjective. Again, the power of perspective comes into play. The reaper's do not view what they're doing as wrong. They are our salvation. They bring order to the chaos. Without them organics are doomed. Their actions are for the greater good of all life in the galaxy. You may not agree with this but it is how the reaper's view it, according to the lore. Once you are harvested and given all this knowledge and perspective and 'ascended' to Godhood perhaps you too would change your view and come to accept the reaper way. You will gain a new perspective and understanding. You will view it not as an limited organic with a short, pitiful life but rather as an immortal god with billions of years of knowledge and experience. You will go from being the caveman grunting at fire to the suddenly having the knowledge and complexity of Einstein.

 

So perhaps the consciousness is preserved but there has never been a reaper created that, when given all this insight, understanding and perspective, did not agree with the harvest. A man who is forced to view the world as round would have a hard time continuing to believe it is square. This, coincidentally, could also explains why the reapers all seem to have different personalities.

 

Some are a few quotes that, imo, provide relevant context to this:

 

“We are your genetic destiny.”

“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

“Embrace perfection.”

 

“The reapers are more your future than ours.”

“Your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence.” (referring to the human reaper)

 

Some deleted dialogue found within ME2 - granted it is deleted but it is still interesting I believe for context:

 

“You fight your own rebirth.”

 

“Thank us. Beg us for immortality.”

 

“You insult a future you cannot comprehend.”

 

“You are the one wasting lives.”

 

“You challenge your own ascension.”

 

“One must not destroy the nation.”

 

 

 

Honestly the more I think of the reapers the more fascinating I find them to be. Shame that the ending did so much evident damage to them.

[nukembaby]

I hate to bring up the Borg but essentially that is what this is--melding of all individuals into one mass mind thereby losing any sense of individuality and personal freedom. The Borg also thought they were doing the rest of the galaxy a favor. What you are arguing is that there may be an upside to it--which is a valid opinion. I just don't share it.

 

Also that quote “Evolution cannot be stopped.” That is so bogus coming from a Reaper because that is their main purpose in life--to stop the natural evolution of organics every 50k years and force a reset.

[Valmar]

I hate to bring up the Borg but essentially that is what this is--melding of all individuals into one mass mind thereby losing any sense of individuality and personal freedom. The Borg also thought they were doing the rest of the galaxy a favor. What you are arguing is that there may be an upside to it--which is a valid opinion. I just don't share it.

 

Of course you feel that way now. You're not harvested. I doubt many people will want to be uploaded into a reaper body. It is only after the fact do you come to realize it is preferred.

 

I never had cheese with my burgers, I thought it looked gross. I was basically forced to try one. Loved it, even though before that point the thought made me feel sick. Same principle applies. When you are given a new perspective on things your opinion can drastically change. I don't want to die yet if I did and found out there is some kind of paradise after death I'd suddenly be wishing I had died a lot sooner. Perspective is a powerful thing, never underestimate the change it can bring to you. I can't speak of the borg - I never watched Star Trek.

 

At any rate I was only trying to elaborate the reaper's perspective. You don't have to agree with them to understand them. Honestly, in a way, I'm showing you how bias organics are against the reapers. Many of us still only view the reaper conflict as a war and as them killing us all. Few people are willing to understand and rather insist that THEIR perspective is the only correct one. A bit hypocritical, really, considering how these people will often criticize the reapers for this as well.

 

 

 

Also that quote “Evolution cannot be stopped.” That is so bogus coming from a Reaper because that is their main purpose in life--to stop the natural evolution of organics every 50k years and force a reset.

 

This is a false conclusion. Evolution cannot be stopped, regardless of what the reaper's purpose my be. They also do not stop the natural evolution of organics. Arguably it is only BECAUSE of the reapers that many species are allowed to evolve in the first place. If the races of cycle's past were allowed to continue conquering and flourishing we likely never would had existed. How many species on this planet has mankind made extinct? Imagine where we'd be if the prothean's were never wiped out. Imagine where we'd be if the Leviathan's were still in control of everything.

 

We'd all be nothing but servants, tools to serve the great overlords. Our civilizations are each given a chance to flourish and expand each cycle. We get to evolve then when we reach the apex of that glory we are harvested and 'perfected' as immortal gods, the final evolution of existence. Unless you actually believe there is something higher than become an immortal free of all weakness and perfect in form. Your standards may be higher than that, I don't know.

 

The reapers pave way for new life. Your bias comes from your attachment to your own cycle. It is selfish to ignore the benefit the harvest presents to all races that come after us and all future cycles. All the other species that are now freely given a chance to evolve and flourish now that the slate has been wiped clean. You say the reapers are biased against organics, I say the organics are heavily bias against the reapers. As it should be, from a narrative stand point. They've been telling us throughout the trilogy that the reaper's are unknowable and that they are beyond our understanding. If the ending did anything right, it was this. Few people are willing or able to understand them. Though it is not the fault of the story, frankly. All the pieces are there throughout the trilogy if you view it all into context as one large picture. You just have to look for them and maintain a certain objective perspective about the whole thing.

 

Though I can't really blame the player either. After all the character we play as, Shepard, can be just as ignorant and blind to all this. Such as still viewing the reapers as machines no matter what he is told, still viewing it only as a war instead of a harvest. Shepard can quite often let his emotions guide him - like destroying the collector base for illogical and ridiculous reasons.

 

I WON'T LET FEAR COMPROMISE WHO I AM! HURRAH!
 

[nukembaby]

Of course you feel that way now. You're not harvested. I doubt many people will want to be uploaded into a reaper body. It is only after the fact do you come to realize it is preferred.

 

 

 

There is no way to know this since we don't hear from anybody afterwards; hence you can't argue objectively that one is better than the other. There's only personal opinion/bias--which your statement above fits neatly under.

[nukembaby]

 

This is a false conclusion. Evolution cannot be stopped, regardless of what the reaper's purpose my be. They also do not stop the natural evolution of organics. Arguably it is only BECAUSE of the reapers that many species are allowed to evolve in the first place. If the races of cycle's past were allowed to continue conquering and flourishing we likely never would had existed. How many species on this planet has mankind made extinct? Imagine where we'd be if the prothean's were never wiped out. Imagine where we'd be if the Leviathan's were still in control of everything.

 

Of course the Reapers are stopping our natural evolution; the Kid said so himself. He said that we would eventually evolve to a point where synthetics kill all organic life, so their purpose is to stop that from happening. Just because they let some evolution happen doesn't mean they are not stopping it eventually at the end of each cycle.

[Valmar]

There is no way to know this since we don't hear from anybody afterwards; hence you can't argue objectively that one is better than the other. There's only personal opinion/bias--which your statement above fits neatly under.

 

I never argued one is objectively better. I argued that the subject IS subjective and NOT objective. I'm trying to elaborate that the sides in this are not clear-cut and that perspective matters. It is subjective.

 

You're taking my comment about harvesting out of context of everything else I said leading up to it.

 

 

Of course the Reapers are stopping our natural evolution; the Kid said so himself. He said that we would eventually evolve to a point where synthetics kill all organic life, so their purpose is to stop that from happening. Just because they let some evolution happen doesn't mean they are not stopping it eventually at the end of each cycle.

 

If I allow a house to burn down half way before stopping it should I be credited as saving half of the house or for letting half of it burn? It's subjective. They allow and encourage cycles to grow, advance, evolve. Then at the apex of their glory they harvest them and help them ascend to the apex form of evolution. Without their intervention organics are doomed. It is only because of them that we are allowed to evolve in the first place because without them we'd just be dead. That is how the reaper's view it.

[SporkFu]

I don't think the reapers are allowing a civilization to ascend to the apex of evolution by harvesting them. I think all they're doing is the equivalent of storing the civilization in a warehouse, never to be seen or heard from again. Said civilization is preserved, which is the reapers' only purpose, but nothing ever comes of it. Sure, a new reaper is made, but so what? The new reaper behaves like all the other reapers the next time a civilization evolves to the point of harvest. Fifty thousand years or so later, they repeat the process. To the catalyst, the galaxy is an experiment, and evolution a tool. The Leviathan on 2181 Despoina basically tells us this. All the catalyst is doing is repeating the same steps over and over and over again, and all it has ever done to with regards to this experiment is make the process as efficient as possible. It took shep and the finally completed crucible to alter the variables and make a real solution possible. 

 

I remember when the Leviathan DLC was first announced, and there weren't details about it yet. Plenty of speculation, though. I remember wonder if it really was about a rogue reaper. I kinda wish it had been... like, one of these ancient harvested civilizations rising up against its oppressors from the inside, or something. *shrug* Oh well, too late now. Bring on ME:Next. 

[StarcloudSWG]

The Reapers do NOT preserve the minds of their victims.

 

They subject the victims to indoctrination, first, in order to make sure they are under the control of the Catalyst.

 

Then they rip the brain to shreds and liquify the body, thus eliminating the mind-body connection essential to keeping organic minds intact.

 

What emerges is another Reaper, just one that's 'flavored' by the memories in data archives of the race it used to be.

[Valmar]

I don't think the reapers are allowing a civilization to ascend to the apex of evolution by harvesting them. I think all they're doing is the equivalent of storing the civilization in a warehouse, never to be seen or heard from again. Said civilization is preserved, which is the reapers' only purpose, but nothing ever comes of it. Sure, a new reaper is made, but so what? The new reaper behaves like all the other reapers the next time a civilization evolves to the point of harvest. Fifty thousand years or so later, they repeat the process. To the catalyst, the galaxy is an experiment, and evolution a tool. The Leviathan on 2181 Despoina basically tells us this. All the catalyst is doing is repeating the same steps over and over and over again, and all it has ever done to with regards to this experiment is make the process as efficient as possible. It took shep and the finally completed crucible to alter the variables and make a real solution possible. 

 

The reapers, however, certainly DO view it as us ascending to perfection. The game tells us as such. The power of perspective, right?

 

“We are your genetic destiny.”

“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

“Embrace perfection.”

“The reapers are more your future than ours.”

“Your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence.”

“You fight your own rebirth.”

“Thank us. Beg us for immortality.”

“You insult a future you cannot comprehend.”

“You are the one wasting lives.”

“You challenge your own ascension.”

“One must not destroy the nation.”

 

 

 

I remember when the Leviathan DLC was first announced, and there weren't details about it yet. Plenty of speculation, though. I remember wonder if it really was about a rogue reaper. I kinda wish it had been... like, one of these ancient harvested civilizations rising up against its oppressors from the inside, or something. *shrug* Oh well, too late now. Bring on ME:Next. 

 

I was in the same boat as you and was hoping/expecting the same thing. That would had been awesome, imo.

 

 

The Reapers do NOT preserve the minds of their victims.

 

They subject the victims to indoctrination, first, in order to make sure they are under the control of the Catalyst.

 

Then they rip the brain to shreds and liquify the body, thus eliminating the mind-body connection essential to keeping organic minds intact.

 

What emerges is another Reaper, just one that's 'flavored' by the memories in data archives of the race it used to be.

 

You're wrong but I suspect its because you put a different value on what the 'mind' means. For all intents and purposes the mind is preserved. A reaper is a billion organic minds linked together. The lore tells us all this. Remember people Mass Effect is a fictional universe, it doesn't matter what you think makes sense in the real-world, this is how it works in the MEVerse.

 

Lore Fact: "This paste will then be used in the construction of a newborn Reaper, with the victims' minds being preserved to form the Reaper's gestalt consciousness."

 

May I suggest reading the reaper wiki page? I know, I know "but I already know everything because I played the game a hundred times, peasant!" Just humor me, you might find it enlightening.

 

http://masseffect.wi...com/wiki/Reaper

 

Honestly I would advise any fan to read through the  reaper, leviathan and catalyst wiki's at least once. Sure we learn all this stuff in the game but its all spaced out in such a way that its easy to forget about the little details. When you view it all as one big picture and put all the pieces together you might be surprised at how well it all fits. 

 

Also worth looking at is the wiki on the 'Virtual Aliens'. Clearly in Mass Effect the body is irrelevant to these things.

 

http://masseffect.wi...i/Virtual_Alien

[SporkFu]

The reapers, however, certainly DO view it as us ascending to perfection. The game tells us as such. The power of perspective, right?

“We are your genetic destiny.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“Evolution cannot be stopped.”
“Embrace perfection.”
“The reapers are more your future than ours.”
“Your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence.”
“You fight your own rebirth.”
“Thank us. Beg us for immortality.”
“You insult a future you cannot comprehend.”
“You are the one wasting lives.”
“You challenge your own ascension.”
“One must not destroy the nation.”

Ehh, Harby talked too much.... until ME3, that is. Those quotes are trashtalk subroutines 797-811. All they're really saying is, "You can't win. Stop fighting. Let us harvest you."

[ImaginaryMatter]

The reapers, however, certainly DO view it as us ascending to perfection. The game tells us as such. The power of perspective, right?

 

“We are your genetic destiny.”

“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”

“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”

“Evolution cannot be stopped.”

“Embrace perfection.”

“The reapers are more your future than ours.”

“Your species was offered everything geth aspire to. True unity. Understanding. Transcendence.”

“You fight your own rebirth.”

“Thank us. Beg us for immortality.”

“You insult a future you cannot comprehend.”

“You are the one wasting lives.”

“You challenge your own ascension.”

“One must not destroy the nation.”

 

Harbinger also states that the other races outside of humanity are unworthy for ascension, which ends up not being the case (unless ascension only refers to being a Sovereign class). Plus, he's kind of an assclown.

 

Lore is somewhat of an unstable thing in Mass Effect, since it's sometimes pushed aside for the story. For example, during the events of Rannoch and the arrival of sword fleet the transit limit for Relays is conveniently ignored. I think there should be only a limited amount faith in it because that's the same way the actual writers view it.

 

I also don't know how much this means but Legion's reference to the Reapers as a gestalt intelligence, according to Chris L'etoile, was an unintended hold over from when the Reapers were intended to be the uploaded minds of a harvested species before it was specifically changed over to the organic-synthetic amalgamation of the essence of a species that are the Reapers from that point forward.

[Valmar]

Harbinger also states that the other races outside of humanity are unworthy for ascension, which ends up not being the case (unless ascension only refers to being a Sovereign class). Plus, he's kind of an assclown.

 

Lore is somewhat of an unstable thing in Mass Effect, since it's sometimes pushed aside for the story. For example, during the events of Rannoch and the arrival of sword fleet the transit limit for Relays is conveniently ignored. I think there should be only a limited amount faith in it because that's the same way the actual writers view it.

 

I never said it was perfect. Lol.

 

 

I also don't know how much this means but Legion's reference to the Reapers as a gestalt intelligence, according to Chris L'etoile, was an unintended hold over from when the Reapers were intended to be the uploaded minds of a harvested species before it was specifically changed over to the organic-synthetic amalgamation of the essence of a species that are the Reapers from that point forward.

 

While that is interesting it doesn't actually change what happens in the game. Intentional or not its in the lore. The reapers are a billion organic minds linked together. This ultimately comes back to the argument that we should ignore lore if it is something we consider 'bad writing'. Something I disagree with.

[nukembaby]

 

If I allow a house to burn down half way before stopping it should I be credited as saving half of the house or for letting half of it burn? It's subjective. They allow and encourage cycles to grow, advance, evolve. Then at the apex of their glory they harvest them and help them ascend to the apex form of evolution. Without their intervention organics are doomed. It is only because of them that we are allowed to evolve in the first place because without them we'd just be dead. That is how the reaper's view it.

The issue I have with this is that past events do not predict future outcomes. There is always the aspect of randomness and probability that the Reapers will never control. So it's a flawed conclusion for the Reapers to assume that every cycle will end the same if they did nothing. If they are making this kind of fundamental mistake it really puts into question their competence and capability in determining the fate of organic life.

[Valmar]

The issue I have with this is that past events do not predict future outcomes. There is always the aspect of randomness and probability that the Reapers will never control. So it's a flawed conclusion for the Reapers to assume that every cycle will end the same if they did nothing. If they are making this kind of fundamental mistake it really puts into question their competence and capability in determining the fate of organic life.

Actually the reapers can control it, or at least what it is they are meant to control. Organics are unpredictable, our conflicts and wars are unpredictable. You can't control that variable. Know one variable that you can control though? Synthetics. AI are not a natural occurrence. You can't prevent organics from fighting each other but you can stop synthetics from wiping them out by just not making the synthetics in the first place. Hence the harvest that comes along and preserves the advance civilizations around the time they've reached the point in their development where they can make these dangerous synthetics.

 

You need to keep this into context of the reapers. I've said a million times by now but only because it is so damn critical. The reapers are a billion+ years old. The intelligence is even older than that. The leviathans are even older than THAT. They are immortal beings that have been observing the galaxy longer then we can imagine. They have observed this pattern of destruction. There is an old earth saying that you might know that goes "history repeats itself". This shouldn't be so hard for you to understand if its a concept even us humans have.

 

Using phrases like 'fundamental mistake' may make your argument look valid, but it doesn't actually add any credibility to it if its not objectively accurate.

 

What you are essentially arguing is that we shouldn't make any predictions of the future based off of observed past experiences. THAT is fundamentally ( ) wrong and goes against much of our knowledge today.

 

Imagine for a moment you are an immortal that has existed for over a billion years. You're practically god, without the powers, and you watch and observe all of organic life. You notice that consistently organics reach a point where they create synthetics and eventually these synthetics always turn on them and wipe them out. You watch it happen over and over and over and over. You're immortal and you've been observing this same thing cycle after cycle. The pattern keeps reoccurring. You mean to tell me that even though you've observed the same thing happening over and over you wouldn't consider that enough to predict what happens next? Do you know the definition of insanity?

 

You don't have to be a magic genie to figure it out. Predicting things based off of statistics gained from observation and patterns is something done all the time in real world. To say that you can't use past events to predict future outcomes is ridiculous. There are entire business models are function on the these principles. How do you think Amazon determines suggested items to show you or Netflix decides recommended movies for you? This is basic stuff. Even the damn protheans were able to pick up on the pattern and they're not even close to being as ancient as the leviathans. 

 

 

. So it's a flawed conclusion for the Reapers to assume that every cycle will end the same if they did nothing

 

Or more accurately to the lore it is the conclusion they came to because they did nothing and every time they did nothing it happened. It kept happening over and over again, a persistent pattern. It is why they the reaper's do something rather than nothing.

 

 

While we're speaking of predictions here is my prediction:

You're too emotional over the endings and thus you don't actually want to agree with anything about the ending. You want it to be wrong in every way and you want to find reasons to hate it more because it made you feel bad. So you'll delve out any reason you can to criticize and spit at it. Also, you'll disagree with me and say I'm wrong and that it has nothing to do with it.