165 réponses à ce sujet

[Vazgen]

[Vortex13]

My biggest issue with the Halo series as it developed; and was personified in Halo 4; was humanity's Mary Suedness. I'm not just talking about the nuke thing, or MC surviving re-entry; I am talking about the whole 'we're older and more powerful than even the Forerunners' reveal. I get it, this is a game made by humans for humans, but the level of contrivances to continually elevate humanity above every other species in the setting was becoming obnoxious by the end of Halo 4. IMO.


Humanity standing against alien attackers in a fight for our survival is one thing, but making it so that suddenly we are this god race (only humanity being worthy of "The Mantle", etc) really took my enjoyment out of the setting. I much preferred the Arbiter and the Elites to MC and humanity; they were more 'human' than the gods the narrative turned us into. The amount of times the 'humanity is special' trope was used in Halo, far surpassed ME's treatment of humanity. Sure BioWare had its fair share of human bias throughout the trilogy, but the level of Mary Sue humanity in Halo dwarfed it.


It would be like ME revealing that humans were older than the Leviathans, and that we completely decimated them in all forms of combat; just because we're that awesome; and it was only the arrival of the Reapers that stopped us. But even then we weren't killed,the Leviathans; realizing that us humans truly were the best at everything; spends their last bit of strength to hide us away on Earth, because only we are worthy of inheriting the universe.


It's a bland, species-wide power fantasy; and it completely removes all sense of attachment I have for the humans of the Halo-verse.

 

 

EDIT:

 

This sums up my view on the matter perfectly:

 

[XXIceColdXX]

Well , hopefully with a new lead writer , we can get to the 'Wake up Shepard' moment sooner .

[Drone223]

Well , hopefully with a new lead writer , we can get to the 'Wake up Shepard' moment sooner .

Seeing as how Shepard won't be in ME: next, don't count on it.

[XXIceColdXX]

Seeing as how Shepard won't be in ME: next, don't count on it.

Sooner as in final scene of next game , or game after that.

[Drone223]

Sooner as in final scene of next game , or game after that.

Bioware clearly stated they're done with Shepard so don't get your hopes up.

[goishen]

Sooner as in final scene of next game , or game after that.

 

 

If they do that I'll do two things.  Lose all faith that BioWare can tell a good story, and then promptly stop buying BioWare games.

[Revan Reborn]

My biggest issue with the Halo series as it developed; and was personified in Halo 4; was humanity's Mary Suedness. I'm not just talking about the nuke thing, or MC surviving re-entry; I am talking about the whole 'we're older and more powerful than even the Forerunners' reveal. I get it, this is a game made by humans for humans, but the level of contrivances to continually elevate humanity above every other species in the setting was becoming obnoxious by the end of Halo 4. IMO.


Humanity standing against alien attackers in a fight for our survival is one thing, but making it so that suddenly we are this god race (only humanity being worthy of "The Mantle", etc) really took my enjoyment out of the setting. I much preferred the Arbiter and the Elites to MC and humanity; they were more 'human' than the gods the narrative turned us into. The amount of times the 'humanity is special' trope was used in Halo, far surpassed ME's treatment of humanity. Sure BioWare had its fair share of human bias throughout the trilogy, but the level of Mary Sue humanity in Halo dwarfed it.


It would be like ME revealing that humans were older than the Leviathans, and that we completely decimated them in all forms of combat; just because we're that awesome; and it was only the arrival of the Reapers that stopped us. But even then we weren't killed,the Leviathans; realizing that us humans truly were the best at everything; spends their last bit of strength to hide us away on Earth, because only we are worthy of inheriting the universe.


It's a bland, species-wide power fantasy; and it completely removes all sense of attachment I have for the humans of the Halo-verse.

 

 

EDIT:

 

This sums up my view on the matter perfectly:

 

I certainly agree one of the weaknesses to Halo is how humanity seems to be at the center of the galaxy, much like Star Trek. What I will say though is that it's more of a MC issue than specifically a human issue. After the events of Halo CE, Bungie turned MC into a god. From 2 to 3, he literally was able to accomplish the impossible, regardless of the odds. Bungie made MC so incredibly perfect, that he began to suffer the same shortcomings that Superman does. One aspect I will agree I did not like about Halo 4 was how the Forerunners and Humanity had a history and a previous war. I would like to see 343 move away from this god-complex humanity seems to have in Halo and focus more on other species that can bring them down a few notches.

[Heimdall]

I certainly agree one of the weaknesses to Halo is how humanity seems to be at the center of the galaxy, much like Star Trek. What I will say though is that it's more of a MC issue than specifically a human issue. After the events of Halo CE, Bungie turned MC into a god. From 2 to 3, he literally was able to accomplish the impossible, regardless of the odds. Bungie made MC so incredibly perfect, that he began to suffer the same shortcomings that Superman does. One aspect I will agree I did not like about Halo 4 was how the Forerunners and Humanity had a history and a previous war. I would like to see 343 move away from this god-complex humanity seems to have in Halo and focus more on other species that can bring them down a few notches.

I actually thought the inclusion of the Arbitor as a playable character did wonders to reduce that impression, sadly they did not continue in that trend.

[Revan Reborn]

I actually thought the inclusion of the Arbitor as a playable character did wonders to reduce that impression, sadly they did not continue in that trend.

I would have just preferred Bungie not turn MC into a god. He was already awesome enough in CE when he was a super soldier. They just couldn't help themselves and they had to take it to the next level because he was "special" and he had "luck" unlike the other Spartans. Had MC's role been more grounded, I believe it would have made for better storytelling.

[XXIceColdXX]

Bioware clearly stated they're done with Shepard so don't get your hopes up.

A few more changes in Bioware's top brass, it won't matter what old BioWare stated.

But yeah, not getting my hopes up,

[BaladasDemnevanni]

I would have just preferred Bungie not turn MC into a god. He was already awesome enough in CE when he was a super soldier. They just couldn't help themselves and they had to take it to the next level because he was "special" and he had "luck" unlike the other Spartans. Had MC's role been more grounded, I believe it would have made for better storytelling.

 

I never really bought into that. MC was a god right from the get go of CE. And it only gets worse starting from the Flood mission onwards where he quite literally spends the second half of the game fighting an army single-handedly and manages to survive. The Halo novel the Flood only served to reinforce this super hero notion. 

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Halo CE may not be an achievement of storytelling, but it's by far the best out of the Bungie games. It had the most coherent and digestible story, versus the other games that went off on a tangent about MC being some sort of god and Bungie getting caught up in their own mess about the Covenant, the Forerunners, and the Flood.

 

 

I addressed this above, but Chief was a God right from the start. You quite literally spend the last five levels of the storyline murdering armies single-handedly. The bare bones nature of Halo 1's narrative ensures that the writers were more concerned about Chief's body count than they were about providing content and context about why all this is occurring. They give you just enough information to keep shooting things, but not much more.

 

I'd also like to make the distinction that Halo 4 is the first in a new trilogy of Halo games. If we are to be fair, it would only make sense to compare Halo 4 to Halo CE. Halo 2 and 3 were merely true sequels that attempted to build off of CE and muddled it up. With the exception of MC and Cortana, the reclaimer trilogy is an all new cast of characters.

 

 

I don't think that's a distinction that has any importance however. Being the first in a series does not excuse either a non-existent villain (the Didact) or a bare bones plot (CE more than Halo 4 in this regard). Consider any other story that is either the first in a series or doesn't even have a sequel. Hell, Mass Effect 2 may be my favorite of the bunch, but ME1 doesn't suffer from either CE's or 4's pitfalls by virtue of being first in the line.

 

While the Arbiter does progress the plot from a different perspective, I would argue Bungie didn't really do a great enough job to make the player care. Part of the problem was that we already had the perspective of MC and so many other plots and subplots were taking place in Halo 2. Then we throw the Arbiter on top of that and have this completely independent experience? I would have rather Bungie just made a game focused on MC and then create an expansion or spin-off game to give context from the Arbiter's perspective. Trying to put two protagonists into one game that was already cluttered? Terrible execution.

 

 

I disagree. I enjoyed MC's storyline in Halo 2, but I hardly think there was too much going on to prevent an additional storyline from being told. The Arbiter himself is meant as a foil for the Master Chief character (as seen in Halo 2's opening cinematic). This isn't Game of Thrones (as an example) where we had 15 different subplots flying around. If you remove the Arbiter, we're very much back at Halo CE's bare bones storyline. 

 

I agree that the Didact should have been used more. 343 was really focused, however, on building the MC-Cortana dynamic, which I didn't mind. While I agree the Forerunner threat was inevitable and predictable, what do you believe 343 should have done? The Covenant threat was done and honestly getting old. There needs to be some sort of conflict and purpose. The Forerunners were always this outside party, so it only made sense they'd play a role at some point.

 

 

To be honest, I don't really think it's the critic's job to play the role of writer. I may have ideas that I think have helped, but if the writers can't create a coherent enemy for their story, then the story shouldn't be told (or at least the story will have a glaring weakness). 

 

The Forerunner reveal didn't come off as an organic evolution of the story for me. It came off as "well, crap, we need another enemy for the player to face....everyone really loves Forerunners, let's use them!". It would be as if ME4 decided to create a race of even bigger and badder starships like the Reapers simply because they needed to make everything more dramatic.

 

I really see this more of Bungie doing a terrible job of using the universe they created rather than 343 just not getting it. If anything, they were limited in the tools they could use, and they had to be conservative as to not "change" Halo too much. Even though I personally thought Halo 4 was fantastic and had an amazing story, I'm hopeful that 343 will have the creativity to really take Halo places it never went before.

 

 

In some regards, I can agree. Halo has a (no pun intended) legendary reputation so there's going to be certain expectations for the series to possess. On the other hand, issues like a bland plot and villain can't really be blamed on anyone other than the writers themselves; the issue of creating a compelling narrative is theirs to do. 

[Nitrocuban]

Halo isn't exactly the pinnacle of storytelling but Halo never did aim for that in the first place and was always more about being a cool COD in space shooter.

 

So as long as BW does not let the guys from Destiny write ME4's story I'm ok with it.

[Revan Reborn]

I never really bought into that. MC was a god right from the get go of CE. And it only gets worse starting from the Flood mission onwards where he quite literally spends the second half of the game fighting an army single-handedly and manages to survive. The Halo novel the Flood only served to reinforce this super hero notion. 

I only disagree for the simple fact that there was this focus on him being a super soldier in CE and not someone specifically special. He was meant to be a cut above the rest in terms of the marines and even had an AI companion to help him along. I thought this was reasonable had they just maintained MC in this role. Unfortunately, in Halo 2 and Halo 3 they had to suggest why he wasn't just a super soldier, but he is the most special human on the planet and only he can save it. Were the events in CE ridiculous? Sure, but the universe was so new and things largely weren't fleshed out that it was hard to criticize. After CE going into 2, 3 and the novels, they just turned MC into a super hero as he literally was the only one who could do anything.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

I only disagree for the simple fact that there was this focus on him being a super soldier in CE and not someone specifically special. He was meant to be a cut above the rest in terms of the marines and even had an AI companion to help him along. I thought this was reasonable had they just maintained MC in this role. Unfortunately, in Halo 2 and Halo 3 they had to suggest why he wasn't just a super soldier, but he is the most special human on the planet and only he can save it. Were the events in CE ridiculous? Sure, but the universe was so new and things largely weren't fleshed out that it was hard to criticize. After CE going into 2, 3 and the novels, they just turned MC into a super hero as he literally was the only one who could do anything.

 

But why was it "hard to criticize", in your words? The premise relies on the idea of a single man, modified or not, last of the Spartans (at least according to the in game manual), who cuts a swath single-handedly through an army of implacable villains, without any sort of rest in the interim.

 

If you dislike super soldier stories, I could agree. But that's not enough to criticize any of the subsequent games when they're merely following up on the premise established of Halo CE, which is that the Chief can do anything solo. If anything, CE actually relies on this even more, since it doesn't have Keyes, Johnson, or Admiral Hood to even play an active role in the storyline. Everybody disappears from Halo CE after Assault on the Control Room. 

[Revan Reborn]

But why was it "hard to criticize", in your words? The premise relies on the idea of a single man, modified or not, last of the Spartans (at least according to the in game manual), who cuts a swath single-handedly through an army of implacable villains, without any sort of rest in the interim.

 

If you dislike super soldier stories, I could agree. But that's not enough to criticize any of the subsequent games when they're merely following up on the premise established of Halo CE, which is that the Chief can do anything solo. If anything, CE actually relies on this even more, since it doesn't have Keyes, Johnson, or Admiral Hood to even play an active role in the storyline. Everybody disappears from Halo CE after Assault on the Control Room. 

I just didn't personally feel that way with CE. Yes, there was a lot of isolation and you were doing things on your own, but you weren't taking on scarabs, surviving re-entry into Earth's atmosphere, or going head to head with the Gravemind and some of the more ridiculous elements in future games. CE really felt more grounded to me than any of the sequels, which blew everything over the top and out of proportion. Halo CE was really just about survival. Halo 2 and onward was about saving the Earth and humanity because you were the "chosen one."

[Drone223]

A few more changes in Bioware's top brass, it won't matter what old BioWare stated.
 

The top Brass at Bioware won't be changing anytime soon either.

[XXIceColdXX]

The top Brass at Bioware won't be changing anytime soon either.

Not sure if you've noticed but it's already been happening. Well at least at Mass Effect production level. New blood new ideas , old promises don't always hold up.

[Drone223]

Not sure if you've noticed but it's already been happening. Well at least at Mass Effect production level. New blood new ideas , old promises don't always hold up.

There is still a good number of dev's who a veteran's of the trilogy so don't be surprised if there aren't many changes.

[XXIceColdXX]

There is still a good number of dev's who a veteran's of the trilogy so don't be surprised if there aren't many changes.

Noted. like I said before, 'hopefully' and not getting hopes up.

Buzzkill !

[goishen]

Halo isn't exactly the pinnacle of storytelling but Halo never did aim for that in the first place and was always more about being a cool COD in space shooter.

 

So as long as BW does not let the guys from Destiny write ME4's story I'm ok with it.

 

 

That's really not fair though.  

 

From what I understand of Destiny, and full disclosure here, I haven't played it.  Destiny had a kick ass story.  It's just somebody, not sure who...  But somebody came in there and ripped it all out.  Now, is this guy up to ME standards?  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[KaiserShep]

That's really not fair though.  

 

From what I understand of Destiny, and full disclosure here, I haven't played it.  Destiny had a kick ass story.  It's just somebody, not sure who...  But somebody came in there and ripped it all out.  Now, is this guy up to ME standards?  I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

I have to assume that they just didn't know where to go with it just yet, but in any case, that seems like a likely reason for how hollow Destiny's actual story content feels. It's practically nothing for the few hours of actual story mission that's in there.

[ZipZap2000]

Destiny probably did have a great story, it wound up being a story about horde mode sadly. This is coming from a guy who can sink hours into Horde mode in gears on a sunday.

 

We won't get Shepard back at any point in the game, it would kill off the atmosphere and any connection we have to the new title.

[Shermos]

Halo is not much more than Call of Duty in a sci-fi setting. It doesn't compare to Mass Effect at all. I don't see this as good news, but he's only one guy on a big team and for all we know, he might have been one of the best people on the Halo 4 team.