92 réponses à ce sujet

[crashsuit]

Flamer is good because you can time it to whatever weapon you're using.

[Deerber]

Can someone tell me what the difference between hiding and cancelling is?  I think I have an idea but I might be missing something here.  An example or two would be great.

 

Reload cancelling has been a normal part of my gaming in several games over the years, but I have never heard of hiding.  I assume it has to do with emptying a clip and using a power while the gun is reloading, but I haven't tried this nor do I know the timing.

 

Thanks!

 

Reload canceling is this: you empty a magazine, start the reload as normal, then when the mag is ready again you cut the reload animation short by forcing your character to perform another animation. This leaves the gun loaded and saves you the time of the last part of the reload animation, which is effectively useless.

 

Reload hiding is this: you empty a gun, then BEFORE the reload animation begins, you use a power/perform another animation. If done correctly, the character will use the power and perform the power animation while reloading the gun "in the background". So you end up with the gun loaded and you used your power, effectively hiding the reload animation like it's not there. The right timing is the one that forces your character to be performing the power animation when the reload animation would start. You can figure it out easily with a few tries, especially on low RoF, low magazine guns like claymore and javelin.

 

The two can also be, and should be if you want to play in the most effective way possible, combined. Meaning that every time you hide a reload, you should also cancel the reload (non-) animation in the same way you would normally, saving even more time.

[Deerber]

Sure, it's not optimal - but it still means you can cram a bit more action into the given time frame.

 

Thinking back to this, though. Why is it then that some kinds of animation seem not to be able to hide reloads? I'm thinking about dodge and melee ones, mostly. It seemed to me that the ones with a long animation were the most likely to succeed in hiding the reload... While the short animation ones were pretty hard to use in that way. Any thought on that?

[LemurFromTheId]

Thinking back to this, though. Why is it then that some kinds of animation seem not to be able to hide reloads? I'm thinking about dodge and melee ones, mostly. It seemed to me that the ones with a long animation were the most likely to succeed in hiding the reload... While the short animation ones were pretty hard to use in that way. Any thought on that?

That's a good question. I'm not familiar with the code, but my guess is that it's a design choice that all power animations can hide a reload. Animation length itself is irrelevant, but obviously some adjustment with the timing is needed from the player if it's shorter than the weapon's ROF delay.

I might write a lengthier post about reload hiding in general when I get home. It seems there's some confusion about the way it works and even what it actually is. I don't feel like an expert, but if no one else is stepping up...

[Deerber]

That's a good question. I'm not familiar with the code, but my guess is that it's a design choice that all power animations can hide a reload. Animation length itself is irrelevant, but obviously some adjustment with the timing is needed from the player if it's shorter than the weapon's ROF delay.

I might write a lengthier post about reload hiding in general when I get home. It seems there's some confusion about the way it works and even what it actually is. I don't feel like an expert, but if no one else is stepping up...

Yeah, of course you need to be careful with timings and when hiding things like claymore with CB, for example. But that wasn't what I was talking about, I was talking about delaying the start of the animation until the reload is just around the corner.

Try, for example, to reload a claymore animation into a combat roll. Good luck with that. Only managed it once, as far as I recall. Why is it that way? Maybe some code expert can enlighten us? Assuming that's something decently easy to make out of the code...

Oh and sure, feel free to write an in depth post, I'll contribute with whatever knowledge is left in my head XD

[nukembaby]

Again, any power with an animation longer than the (canceled) reload one can, and will

Again, I know that but I want to make a list of the ones that players know to work reliably and are practical to use (combat effective). For example, on paper warp + hurricane shouldn't work so well, but I guarantee it works (0.1 s is enough of a window to time it correctly since you can see the ammo counter ticking down as you fire). 

[Deerber]

Again, I know that but I want to make a list of the ones that players know to work reliably and are practical to use (combat effective). For example, on paper warp + hurricane shouldn't work so well, but I guarantee it works (0.1 s is enough of a window to time it correctly since you can see the ammo counter ticking down as you fire). 

 

Then, *again*, why the hell are you asking if a power can hide some gun's animation? Then answer is YES.

[RopeDrink]

Had it happen a few times randomly during my Geth Solider runs - Would start flaming and then noticed my weapon reloaded whilst I was still melting faces in holy fire. Couldn't replicate it when I wanted it, though, but nice to know there's a technique.

 

Still, I don't use flamer characters too often - and the character I use ALL the time just happens to have an ability spammable every 2seconds (hello sexy human soliders) - So when I'm using concussive shots, I don't really need to bother thinking of reload animations at all for any reason as you're effectively reloaded in the time it takes to fire two concs and most animations fit well into detonation rotations - that is if I can't be bothered to 'cancel' with dodge (without dodging), just sprinting, medi-gel or whatever I feel like.

 

Will look into it a bit more if/when I diverge away from comfort characters.

[LemurFromTheId]

Alright.

 

Ti = 60 / ROF (time after the the last shot before reload begins; also the interval between shots in weapons with mags > 1; ignoring min refire time here)

Tr = reload time (cancelled or non-cancelled, whichever you prefer)

Tt = Ti + Tr (total time between last shot before reload and the first shot after reload)

Ta = animation length

 

(Ti is usually smaller than Tr, but there are exceptions, such as Wraith.)

 

In order to initiate reload hiding successfully, you have to initiate a power after the last shot in the mag but before Ti has elapsed, and that power must end after Ti has elapsed. It's possible to do several actions within this time window, e.g. Shoot - Dodge - Warp: the weapon reloads itself.

 

Therefore reload hiding happens "reliably" when Ta >= Ti and Ti is long enough that you're able to initiate the power (which depends entirely on you.) This is why reload hiding with the Hurricane is difficult; it's Ti is 60 / 600 = 0.1 which is a very short time window to cast a power.

 

If Ta is shorter than Tr, the animation always ends before the weapon has reloaded. This isn't a bad thing in anyway, it just means that you could've used a longer animation without sacrificing weapon ROF.

 

If Ta is longer than Tr, there's a chance (if you initate the power late) that you'll end up waiting for your power animation to end before you can shoot again, even though the weapon is ready.

 

If Ta is longer than Tt, you'll be always sacrificing ROF.

 

Optimally Ti <= Ta <= Tr. This way you don't need to do any extraneous timing tricks and you'll never lose weapon ROF.

 

 

Example:

 

Claymore has ROF of 64 and cancelled reload time of 1.04. Therefore:

Ti = 60 / 64 = 0.94

Tr = 1.04

Tt = 1.98

 

"Optimally" you hide the reload with a power with Ta between 0.94 and 1.04 seconds, so you'll never miss the reload for being too quick with the power and you'll never end up waiting for the animation to end before being able to shoot again. However, Ta is still pretty good as long as it's smaller than Tt, i.e. 1.98 seconds. If Ta is close to 1.98, you have to initate the power immediately after the shot or you'll end up losing ROF.

[Deerber]

Alright.

 

Ti = 60 / ROF (time after the the last shot before reload begins; also the interval between shots in weapons with mags > 1; ignoring min refire time here)

Tr = reload time (cancelled or non-cancelled, whichever you prefer)

Tt = Ti + Tr (total time between last shot before reload and the first shot after reload)

Ta = animation length

 

(Ti is usually smaller than Tr, but there are exceptions, such as Wraith.)

 

1

 

In order to initiate reload hiding successfully, you have to initiate a power after the last shot in the mag but before Ti has elapsed, and that power must end after Ti has elapsed. It's possible to do several actions within this time window, e.g. Shoot - Dodge - Warp: the weapon reloads itself. 2

 

Therefore reload hiding happens "reliably" when Ta >= Ti and Ti is long enough that you're able to initiate the power (which depends entirely on you.) This is why reload hiding with the Hurricane is difficult; it's Ti is 60 / 600 = 0.1 which is a very short time window to cast a power. 

 

If Ta is shorter than Tr, the animation always ends before the weapon has reloaded. This isn't a bad thing in anyway, it just means that you could've used a longer animation without sacrificing weapon ROF.

 

If Ta is longer than Tr, there's a chance (if you initate the power late) that you'll end up waiting for your power animation to end before you can shoot again, even though the weapon is ready. 

 

If Ta is longer than Tt, you'll be always sacrificing ROF.

 

Optimally Ti <= Ta <= Tr. This way you don't need to do any extraneous timing tricks and you'll never lose weapon ROF. 3

 

 

Example:

 

Claymore has ROF of 64 and cancelled reload time of 1.04. Therefore:

Ti = 60 / 64 = 0.94

Tr = 1.04

Tt = 1.98

 

"Optimally" you hide the reload with a power with Ta between 0.94 and 1.04 seconds, so you'll never miss the reload for being too quick with the power and you'll never end up waiting for the animation to end before being able to shoot again. However, Ta is still pretty good as long as it's smaller than Tt, i.e. 1.98 seconds. If Ta is close to 1.98, you have to initate the power immediately after the shot or you'll end up losing ROF.

 

Looks good to me. Some points that I feel need futher elaboration:

 

1 you should probably explain here that, before you're able to start a reload, whether it's hidden or not, you need to wait for the full time between two normal shots of the gun. That should make things clearer.

 

2 I'm not so sure about this. Chaining multiple animations works at times, but it fails some other times. For example, claymore -> nova -> roll has a very high chance of not hiding the reload, in my experience. I've always wanted to try it more and understand what's behind it, but I never got around to it. Maybe a look at the code could help, if someone's reading and has that skill.

 

3 It might be worth noticing that even if Ta < Ti, reload hiding can still be performed very comfortably by just delaying the start of the animation enough that it overlaps the start of the reload.

[nukembaby]

Then, *again*, why the hell are you asking if a power can hide some gun's animation? Then answer is YES.

I'm not asking "if". This is meant as a quick reference list of combos that people have found to be reliable and useful in actual gaming. If you still don't understand the purpose of the thread or find it useless to you, then just ignore it. We don't need your pedagoguery.

[Deerber]

I'm not asking "if". This is meant as a quick reference list of combos that people have found to be reliable and useful in actual gaming. If you still don't understand the purpose of the thread or find it useless to you, then just ignore it. We don't need your pedagoguery.

 

So Tac Scan can hide Widow reload?

 

 

But hey, alright, I guess Caerdon should just start a whole other thread on reload hiding mechanics, and I'll gladly contribute there.

[nukembaby]

Alright.

 

Ti = 60 / ROF (time after the the last shot before reload begins; also the interval between shots in weapons with mags > 1; ignoring min refire time here)

Tr = reload time (cancelled or non-cancelled, whichever you prefer)

Tt = Ti + Tr (total time between last shot before reload and the first shot after reload)

Ta = animation length

 

(Ti is usually smaller than Tr, but there are exceptions, such as Wraith.)

 

In order to initiate reload hiding successfully, you have to initiate a power after the last shot in the mag but before Ti has elapsed, and that power must end after Ti has elapsed. It's possible to do several actions within this time window, e.g. Shoot - Dodge - Warp: the weapon reloads itself.

 

Therefore reload hiding happens "reliably" when Ta >= Ti and Ti is long enough that you're able to initiate the power (which depends entirely on you.) This is why reload hiding with the Hurricane is difficult; it's Ti is 60 / 600 = 0.1 which is a very short time window to cast a power.

 

If Ta is shorter than Tr, the animation always ends before the weapon has reloaded. This isn't a bad thing in anyway, it just means that you could've used a longer animation without sacrificing weapon ROF.

 

If Ta is longer than Tr, there's a chance (if you initate the power late) that you'll end up waiting for your power animation to end before you can shoot again, even though the weapon is ready.

 

If Ta is longer than Tt, you'll be always sacrificing ROF.

 

Optimally Ti <= Ta <= Tr. This way you don't need to do any extraneous timing tricks and you'll never lose weapon ROF.

 

 

Example:

 

Claymore has ROF of 64 and cancelled reload time of 1.04. Therefore:

Ti = 60 / 64 = 0.94

Tr = 1.04

Tt = 1.98

 

"Optimally" you hide the reload with a power with Ta between 0.94 and 1.04 seconds, so you'll never miss the reload for being too quick with the power and you'll never end up waiting for the animation to end before being able to shoot again. However, Ta is still pretty good as long as it's smaller than Tt, i.e. 1.98 seconds. If Ta is close to 1.98, you have to initate the power immediately after the shot or you'll end up losing ROF.

This is exactly why I made a thread about this. I just want to have a handy list of tried-and-true combos rather than have to go through calculations and lookup tables. I mean, how many possibilities are there? A lot. But which ones would you actually find useful? This list. Please understand this or just go away.

[Deerber]

But which ones would you actually find useful? This list. Please understand this or just go away.

 

The answer is still "a lot". Besides, you don't get to decide who answers to your threads, in this forum.

[nukembaby]

 

 

 

 

But hey, alright, I guess Caerdon should just start a whole other thread on reload hiding mechanics, and I'll gladly contribute there.

 

My question was not asking if. It was clarifying his experience with it. There's a difference. For someone so skilled in pedantry as yourself, I would have expected you to get it.

[LemurFromTheId]

Looks good to me. Some points that I feel need futher elaboration:

 

1 you should probably explain here that, before you're able to start a reload, whether it's hidden or not, you need to wait for the full time between two normal shots of the gun. That should make things clearer.

 

2 I'm not so sure about this. Chaining multiple animations works at times, but it fails some other times. For example, claymore -> nova -> roll has a very high chance of not hiding the reload, in my experience. I've always wanted to try it more and understand what's behind it, but I never got around to it. Maybe a look at the code could help, if someone's reading and has that skill.

 

3 It might be worth noticing that even if Ta < Ti, reload hiding can still be performed very comfortably by just delaying the start of the animation enough that it overlaps the start of the reload.

 

1. Yeah, probably. I guess it might be worthwhile to make a new thread and spend some time detailing exactly what reload hiding is, what it's used for and why and how it's entirely a separate thing from reload canceling.

 

2. I think the problem here is the combat roll; from my experience, it's just not reliable for reload hiding, sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't, even when you get the timing down. It could be a bug, but whether or not it's supposed to be able to do reload hiding. I always talk about power animations for this reason, my bad for not making that clear. That said, a combo like Claymore - asari dodge - Warp works reliably every time as long as you do it quickly enough.

 

3. Good point, I should've pointed that out explicitly instead of just implying it.

[nukembaby]

The answer is still "a lot". Besides, you don't get to decide who answers to your threads, in this forum.

The fact that you're still here means you don't understand it I guess

[LemurFromTheId]

This is exactly why I made a thread about this. I just want to have a handy list of tried-and-true combos rather than have to go through calculations and lookup tables. I mean, how many possibilities are there? A lot. But which ones would you actually find useful? This list. Please understand this or just go away.

 

The problem here is that there are pretty much hundreds of tried-and-true combos that all work well for some purpose or another. The mechanics aren't all that complicated, so if you understand how it all works, figuring out good combinations is more or less trivial.

[nukembaby]

 

 

 

 

But hey, alright, I guess Caerdon should just start a whole other thread on reload hiding mechanics, and I'll gladly contribute there.

 

Yes exactly. In fact Caerdon likely just killed this thread with that post (nothing against Caerdon). Just too many numbers for the average reader here.

[nukembaby]

The problem here is that there are pretty much hundreds of tried-and-true combos that all work well for some purpose or another. The mechanics aren't all that complicated, so if you understand how it all works, figuring out good combinations is more or less trivial.

Give me one that you've confirmed personally with gameplay that is combat-effective and reliable. No? Then this list is for you. Get it now?

[Deerber]

My question was not asking if. It was clarifying his experience with it. There's a difference. For someone so skilled in pedantry as yourself, I would have expected you to get it.

 

Pedantry =/= knowledge of the english language, you know. Of which I'm not even an expert, so go figure...

 

Give me one that you've confirmed personally with gameplay that is combat-effective and reliable. No? Then this list is for you. Get it now?

 

Sure, I get it now. Here's one that is pretty awesome:

 

[nukembaby]

Pedantry = slavish attention to the rules or detail. 

 

Although I think this one is more appropriate to you:  false pattern based on a lack of perspective and judgment regarding what is relevant and appropriate.

 

I can only infer from the pic you posted that you are at a loss for words?

[nukembaby]

Still waiting for a combo from you Deerber I'm sure you can rattle one off the top of your head. Let's see how long it takes for you to calculate a good one.

[LemurFromTheId]

Give me one that you've confirmed personally with gameplay that is combat-effective and reliable. No? Then this list is for you. Get it now?

 

*sigh*

 

I'll give you a few.

 

Claymore - Incinerate

Claymore - Cryo Blast

Claymore - Warp

Claymore - Throw

Claymore - Stasis

Claymore - Dark Channel

Claymore - Reave

Claymore - Singularity

Claymore - Shockwave

Claymore - Grenade

Claymore - Charge

Claymore - Havoc Strike

Claymore - Flamer

Claymore - Smash

Claymore - Poison Strike

....

Do I need to go on? For every single weapon out there? Most of the combinations work out fine. Just make sure the power animation isn't too long or too short for the weapon you're using. It's not rocket science.

 

You won't improve your game by checking out lists of good reload hiding combinations. Just try them out and play the game, and you'll learn fast what works and what doesn't, provided that you understand the mechanic reasonably well.

[Deerber]

Still waiting for a combo from you Deerber I'm sure you can rattle one off the top of your head. Let's see how long it takes for you to calculate a good one.

 

Right. If you ask so nicely... (forreal this time)

 

 

Javelin - Incinerate

Javelin - Cryo Blast

Javelin - Warp

Javelin - Throw

Javelin - Stasis

Javelin - Dark Channel

Javelin - Reave

Javelin - Singularity

Javelin - Shockwave

Javelin - Grenade

Javelin - Charge

Javelin - Havoc Strike

Javelin- Flamer

Javelin- Smash

Javelin - Poison Strike

....