221 réponses à ce sujet

[Revan Reborn]

It seems by now we're both saying the same thing but in different ways.

 

I don't believe synthetics achieve true understanding of organics before Synthesis, I'm just saying that they can imitate them to fit into society, like EDI does. She's a synthetic but she's clearly trying to fit with organics and to do so she asks Shepard and etc how organics act and why, which we see in ME3 in various conversations on the Normandy and the Citadel, and we can see that she sometimes questions things that organics do and Shepard tells her that's it's normal for them, so EDI makes a modification in her programming so she can act accordingly. I think that's a little more clear?

I understand entirely what you are saying. I'm merely pointing out the fact that imitating something is not the same as actually truly grasping it. Take, for instance, a parrot. It can mimic what a human says, but does that mean it truly understands the full intent of those words and the expressions they convey? No. It's merely copying what it hears. The same applies to EDI and the Geth. They can copy and imitate all they want. Understanding isn't something can purely be created. It's a unique part of the human experience that can only be gained by being a human. An AI, with its limited programming capabilities, can never truly appreciate or understand the organic experience because it is not an organic. Synthesis resolves that dilemma by supplying the understanding and for lack of a better term, "humanity" that an AI can never have, programmed or otherwise.

[fyz306903]

Who's to say the Reapers wouldn't come to the conclusion that Synthesis wasn't the final solution and decided to begin harvesting again? What then?

 

Well, this sums up my problems with the endings. They didn't make it at all clear whether or not this could happen in synthesis, and they didn't make it at all clear if the Geth and EDI could be rebuilt in Destroy. It sounded pretty final to me, but they could retcon it. If ME4 is a sequel, it's got a hell of a lot of reconnecting/clarification/sidestepping to do because all we're doing is speculating. It might not even matter, anyway. I still think there's a chance ME4 will be a spin-off from ME3 and it won't even mention the events of ME3, I'd not like this, but I think its pretty likely, due to how much easier it would be, and it would give the new writer a 'clean slate'. Sill, We'll see, soon, hopefully. 

[Revan Reborn]

Well, this sums up my problems with the endings. They didn't make it at all clear whether or not this could happen in synthesis, and they didn't make it at all clear if the Geth and EDI could be rebuilt in Destroy. It sounded pretty final to me, but they could retcon it. If ME4 is a sequel, it's got a hell of a lot of reconnecting/clarification/sidestepping to do because all we're doing is speculating. It might not even matter, anyway. I still think there's a chance ME4 will be a spin-off from ME3 and it won't even mention the events of ME3, I'd not like this, but I think its pretty likely, due to how much easier it would be, and it would give the new writer a 'clean slate'. Sill, We'll see, soon, hopefully. 

In High EMS Destroy we see that the Citadel and the Mass Relays are repaired in a short amount of time. They don't explicitly say the synthetics are rebuilt, but I can't see why they wouldn't be considering they were much easier to create and weren't based solely on reaper tech. Synthetics also just improve organic life, so I really wouldn't understand why the races of the galaxy would not only rebuild, but improve upon synthetics of the past. Especially now that the reapers are out of the way, what's holding them back?

 

To me, Control and Synthesis are just bad because the Reapers are still in existence. Regardless of whether Shepard is controlling them or Synthesis has created the final stage of "evolution," they will always be a threat. Those endings provide a lot more problems and lack of closure which would just be easily resolved if BioWare sent the reapers back to dark space.

[Iakus]

In High EMS Destroy we see that the Citadel and the Mass Relays are repaired in a short amount of time. They don't explicitly say the synthetics are rebuilt, but I can't see why they wouldn't be considering they were much easier to create and weren't based solely on reaper tech. Synthetics also just improve organic life, so I really wouldn't understand why the races of the galaxy would not only rebuild, but improve upon synthetics of the past. Especially now that the reapers are out of the way, what's holding them back?

 

Except for EDI and the geth clearly being shown as dead...

[fyz306903]

Except for EDI and the geth clearly being shown as dead...

 

I suppose they could retcon any aspects of the ending, or ignore it. Personally, I'm not speculating anymore until Bioware release a teaser that gives some concrete information. Hopefully, this'll be soon.  

[Iakus]

I suppose they could retcon any aspects of the ending, or ignore it. Personally, I'm not speculating anymore until Bioware release a teaser that gives some concrete information. Hopefully, this'll be soon.  

 

Sadly, going the "Councilor Udina" route is probably the best hope we have if they decide to go the direct sequel route. 

[Revan Reborn]

Sadly, going the "Councilor Udina" route is probably the best hope we have if they decide to go the direct sequel route. 

The point of loss would have been entirely missed had organics quickly rebuilt synthetics right after the ME3 ending. What I was suggesting is that in the foreseeable future synthetics would be rebuilt. Not immediately.

[Iakus]

The point of loss would have been entirely missed had organics quickly rebuilt synthetics right after the ME3 ending. What I was suggesting is that in the foreseeable future synthetics would be rebuilt. Not immediately.

And as in-game lore clearly explains, they would not be the same synthetics.  Any more than any two random humans are the same.

[Vazgen]

Except for EDI and the geth clearly being shown as dead...

Are they? As I recall you see just a slide of EDI and nothing about the geth. It's heavily implied that they are dead but it's not explicitly shown. Been some time since I've seen the ending though

[Revan Reborn]

And as in-game lore clearly explains, they would not be the same synthetics.  Any more than any two random humans are the same.

Being rebuilt and being identical are two identical things. I'd rather not get on that discussion again as "in-game lore" is one small codex. The point is they are machines and they can be created, regardless of if they have the same "personality" or not.

[Iakus]

Are they? As I recall you see just a slide of EDI and nothing about the geth. It's heavily implied that they are dead but it's not explicitly shown. Been some time since I've seen the ending though

 

Spoiler

EDI is shown among the faces of the dead in Destroy, where she is not shown dead in even the lowest EMS Control, where her robot body is destroyed in the beam run (she lives on within the Normandy)

 

EDI's name appears on the memorial wall in all versions of Destroy, but not in Control, even the lowest EMS one

 

Rannoch where you sided with the geth but chose Destroy shows the world completely abandoned.  No one lives there now.  Control and Synthesis show geth living there otherwise.

 

It's pretty explicit.  They are dead.

[GalacticWolf5]

I understand entirely what you are saying. I'm merely pointing out the fact that imitating something is not the same as actually truly grasping it. Take, for instance, a parrot. It can mimic what a human says, but does that mean it truly understands the full intent of those words and the expressions they convey? No. It's merely copying what it hears. The same applies to EDI and the Geth. They can copy and imitate all they want. Understanding isn't something can purely be created. It's a unique part of the human experience that can only be gained by being a human. An AI, with its limited programming capabilities, can never truly appreciate or understand the organic experience because it is not an organic. Synthesis resolves that dilemma by supplying the understanding and for lack of a better term, "humanity" that an AI can never have, programmed or otherwise.

That's what I just said. We're saying the same thing here.

[Iakus]

Being rebuilt and being identical are two identical things. I'd rather not get on that discussion again as "in-game lore" is one small codex. The point is they are machines and they can be created, regardless of if they have the same "personality" or not.

 

Created?  Like Miranda and Oriana?  Like Grunt?  Like CloneShep?

[Iakus]

I understand entirely what you are saying. I'm merely pointing out the fact that imitating something is not the same as actually truly grasping it. Take, for instance, a parrot. It can mimic what a human says, but does that mean it truly understands the full intent of those words and the expressions they convey? No. It's merely copying what it hears. The same applies to EDI and the Geth. They can copy and imitate all they want. Understanding isn't something can purely be created. It's a unique part of the human experience that can only be gained by being a human. An AI, with its limited programming capabilities, can never truly appreciate or understand the organic experience because it is not an organic. Synthesis resolves that dilemma by supplying the understanding and for lack of a better term, "humanity" that an AI can never have, programmed or otherwise.

 

And by the same token, humans can't understand how synthetics process things.  We can't comprehend of a consensus because it's totlaly alien to our way of thinking.  Similarly, EDI preceives the world in ways we cannot understand, as she is not limited by a single physical body. 

 

EDI is not human, however curious about them she is or however attatched she may become to them.  But not being human is not the same as not being alive.  A feature ME2 seemed to embrace, and ME3 seemed to run away from.

[Vazgen]

Spoiler

EDI is shown among the faces of the dead in Destroy, where she is not shown dead in even the lowest EMS Control, where her robot body is destroyed in the beam run (she lives on within the Normandy)

 

EDI's name appears on the memorial wall in all versions of Destroy, but not in Control, even the lowest EMS one

 

Rannoch where you sided with the geth but chose Destroy shows the world completely abandoned.  No one lives there now.  Control and Synthesis show geth living there otherwise.

 

It's pretty explicit.  They are dead.

Spoiler

OK, I can see the explicitness of EDI's name appearing on the wall.

But how does ruined Rannoch proves that the geth die? Maybe they simply abandoned Rannoch. They were tending to the quarian buildings and infrastructure there, now that the quarians are gone they simply go away. Control and Synthesis are different, because the geth get help from the Reapers in both cases. 

I'm not saying they don't die, I'm saying that we are not shown dead geth in ending slides. 

[Iakus]

Spoiler

OK, I can see the explicitness of EDI's name appearing on the wall.

But how does ruined Rannoch proves that the geth die? Maybe they simply abandoned Rannoch. They were tending to the quarian buildings and infrastructure there, now that the quarians are gone they simply go away. Control and Synthesis are different, because the geth get help from the Reapers in both cases. 

I'm not saying they don't die, I'm saying that we are not shown dead geth in ending slides. 

 

Spoiler

Because as I said, Control and Synthesis shows geth living on Rannoch.  In Destroy, with the quarians gone, there is no one left to live there.  Ergo, abandoned world

[Vazgen]

Spoiler

Because as I said, Control and Synthesis shows geth living on Rannoch.  In Destroy, with the quarians gone, there is no one left to live there.  Ergo, abandoned world

That just means that

Spoiler

the world is abandoned. They abandon it if Reapers are destroyed and live there if Reapers are present.

Not that the geth are dead.

[Iakus]

That just means that

Spoiler

the world is abandoned. They abandon it if Reapers are destroyed and live there if Reapers are present.

Not that the geth are dead.

 

You're really grasping at straws there:

 

Spoiler

Why is it only abandoned in Destroy, the one ending that we are told exterminates all synthetic life, and which we have positive proof of killing EDI?  And yet in COntrol and Synthesis we explicitly see living geth there?

[Vazgen]

You're really grasping at straws there:

 

Spoiler

Why is it only abandoned in Destroy, the one ending that we are told exterminates all synthetic life, and which we have positive proof of killing EDI?  And yet in COntrol and Synthesis we explicitly see living geth there?

I'm not gasping at anything. Like I said, I think the geth are dead. I'm just saying that it's not explicitly shown and one can headcanon them being alive without contradicting what the game shows

[Rusted Cage]

The Geth of Destroy ending are the Schrödinger's Cat of Mass Effect.

[Iakus]

The Geth of Destroy ending are the Schrödinger's Cat of Mass Effect.

Only if the box the cat is in is riddled with bullet holes.

 

And possibly on fire

[StealthGamer92]

Only if the box the cat is in is riddled with bullet holes.

 

And possibly on fire

But if we don't open the box then the cat is still alive, right?