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[MrFob]

So, this topic originates from a quick exchange Vazgen and I had in this thread. In order not to drag that thread further off topic, I am starting a new one here.

 

The subject of discussion is the cypher, Shepard gets from Shiala on Feros. I have heard several people say recently that it is a linked to the whole idea of the genetic essence of a species, that became very prominent in ME2/3 with the reaper harvests and also with Javik's reading ability. I may have missed something but at least for the cypher in ME1, I never heard genetics brought into it.

 

This is important because I find the idea that genetics can store thought patterns, memories or any other incarnations of consciousness rather ludicrous. With genetic data and sufficiently developed technology, it may be feasible to reconstruct the body of a human, even a brain but a brain as just organic tissue is fairly useless. Consciousness is in large parts shaped by learning and memories, our experience and our environment. It is created and maintained mainly through neuronal plasticity, i.e. changes in in the strength of connectivity between brain cells. The genetic data codes merely for the template structure in which these dynamic processes take place. Therefore, to equalize some genetic markers with an understanding of particular thoughts or feelings of a species (let alone an individual like in Javiks reading ability) makes little sense. Granted there are some results from experiments with rodents, that indicate that under certain circumstances, memories can be inherited by offspring. It is also the case that certain core behaviors (not just reflexes) are "hard coded" into our nervous system (to over-simplify things for the sake of space). However, these are fairly rudimentary responses to very specific stimuli and very likely dependent on a limited set of scenarios.

 

The cypher on the other hand - as I interpret it - is rather independent from genetics. It a consensus of conceptualization, shared between people. It does not materialize in a physical form, base-pairs or otherwise, but is really just a "way of thinking" for lack of a more apt description.

 

I'll take a crack at an  example, which is probably really bad and full of flaws and is riddled with speculation and anthropomorphism on top but anyway, here we go:

When an adult human, brought up in the 21st century (and not under a rock) sees a fork, he will immediately know that this is a tool for handling food. Why? Because he has learned this as a child and uses one every day. The idea of what a fork is good for is embedded in his mind by training, experience and initial information, provided by his peers. A toddler may not know what a fork is good for yet. On the one hand, the toddler has no experience with one, not even experience with solid food. On top of that, the physiognomy of a toddler won't even allow him to properly use one. The toddler only learns what the fork is good for as he observes his parents or others use the tool and as it's application actually becomes relevant to him. An ant, even if we suppose we have a very intelligent ant will never conceptualize a fork as a tool for handling food because the fork is about 100 times bigger than the ant., way bigger than any food the ant is ever going to handle at any one time and overall, completely useless to it as a tool. However, if there are scraps for food still clinging to the prongs, it may actually see it as a really big place in which food can be found.

 

Now, from that fork, you can basically extrapolate to every aspect of sensory experience and from the ant, you can extrapolate to an alien species, like the protheans. It is an alien race, that had it's own abstraction to a lot of the physical world in their mind. If they see the same thing as you or I, they will view it in a completely different context. The reason this does not happen between humans is because we are in constant communication, comparing our experiences and sharing our personal perspectives (also, we have similar sensory and computational systems, see below). However, if you suppose an alien culture, one, no one has ever interacted with, I think it is very possible there is more than just a language barrier.

 

I think it was pretty cool that ME1 touched upon this question with the cypher (not many works of mainstream SciFi do) and at the same time, gave a fairly clever (if purely fictional) solution in the form of the telepathic Thorian and Asari. Because this would be the only way to transfer this kind of meta-information, if you will.

Maybe, with enough time with such a different species, one could even get this information "translated" without telepathy,although that would be difficult with the extinct protheans.

 

BTW, of course, the cypher is not completely independent from genetics in that the same body structure, the same sensory perception systems and the same fundamental layout of the brain (or an equivalent organ) helps to form similar concepts of ones surroundings. However, genetic information could never be used to transfer a cypher.

 

What do you think? is the cypher is a feasible idea or do you think it's still all nonsense, just there for the plot? If we made contact with another species today, would we run into similar problems? Would be capable of overcoming such differences eventually without telepathy?

Food for thought.

 

 

... You may also just bash my example if you wish.

[cap and gown]

I pretty much agree with your idea of what the cipher was, a sorta cultural translator. Even among humans you can't just walk in and learn another language and expect to immediately understand what is going on around you. Your example, for instance, refers to a fork. Except many societies don't even use forks. Now if humans have difficulty understanding each other with all the same biology, how much more difficult would it be with an alien species that may have very different sense organs than us as well as many other differences in biology?

 

What I never did connect was the "essence of a species" in ME2 which basically seems to be tied to its DNA (and why should other species even have DNA? why not another molecule?) to the Cipher which I saw as a cultural translator, not a biology text.

[StarcloudSWG]

The 'cipher', as far as I can tell, was the sum total of the observations that the Thorian had about the Protheans. It probably captured and.. did whatever it did.. with their bodies and their brains, in addition to simply watching them. It basically learned how to think like a Prothean and understand their language.

 

There was no 'genetic memory' involved. Yes, RNA does play a function in a cell's 'memory' of what it is supposed to be and the conditions under which it functions, and it does play a role in 'transmitting' information from one cell to another, but to go from that to 'And now I know everything about you by touching you' is... utterly.. ridiculous.

 

At least Asari mind melds have a degree of logic behind them; it's basically a nervous system that can 'tune' itself to another, acting as antenna, transmitter, and receiver. There's a 'natural' translation as each nervous system still remains independent, and each brain processes information in ways familiar to itself. 

 

RNA? That's very specific to the cell. Javik might have been able to 'read' other Protheans and animals/plants native to the Prothean homeworld, but other than that, he should have gotten garbage from every other being.

[SporkFu]

The 'cipher', as far as I can tell, was the sum total of the observations that the Thorian had about the Protheans. It probably captured and.. did whatever it did.. with their bodies and their brains, in addition to simply watching them. It basically learned how to think like a Prothean and understand their language.

 

There was no 'genetic memory' involved. Yes, RNA does play a function in a cell's 'memory' of what it is supposed to be and the conditions under which it functions, and it does play a role in 'transmitting' information from one cell to another, but to go from that to 'And now I know everything about you by touching you' is... utterly.. ridiculous.

 

At least Asari mind melds have a degree of logic behind them; it's basically a nervous system that can 'tune' itself to another, acting as antenna, transmitter, and receiver. There's a 'natural' translation as each nervous system still remains independent, and each brain processes information in ways familiar to itself. 

 

RNA? That's very specific to the cell. Javik might have been able to 'read' other Protheans and animals/plants native to the Prothean homeworld, but other than that, he should have gotten garbage from every other being.

After learning about how the protheans were able to communicate through touch, I wonder if that somehow facilitated what the thorian was able to do, like, made it better able to understand the protheans so completely. Perhaps the thorian wouldn't have been able to do that with any other species. 

[Vazgen]

Thanks for posting this Let's get to it, shall we?

The source I have for the essence of the species mention is that video you linked. Shiala mentions 1) Thorian consuming the Protheans 2) Cypher being the very essence of being a Prothean. The word "genetic" doesn't come up, true, it just coincides quite well with the "consuming" part. It's clear that genetics are not used when transferring that knowledge to Shiala and Shepard, but they were used to form the Cypher in the first place.

My problems with the Cypher are as follows:

1) The knowledge of an entire race including culture, way of thinking, the "endemic ancestral memory. A viewpoint spanning thousands of Prothean generations" should be immense. The Thorian itself collected the knowledge for thousands of years. To have this knowledge dumped into an unprepared mind without damaging it is preposterous IMO. That's considering Shiala - asari are probably more prepared for such exchanges. To actually transfer that knowledge to a human mind and have Shepard be perfectly fine afterwards... Let's just say, I don't think anything other than plot armor helps Shepard there.

2) It's clear that the Protheans had different body structure than humans. Perception of a Prothean mind would differ from that of a human. Truth be said, we didn't know what the Protheans look like until ME2-ME3. What we did know is that they used some form of telepathic communication (the beacons) and that alone will make their perception drastically different from human. Having it transferred to a human mind would've caused some form of schizophrenia or rewritten neural pathways to change the perception of the world to that of a Prothean which is not the case in the game. 

3) The Cypher is transferred to both Shiala, Saren and Shepard meaning that it applies to different races with different mindset and physiology equally. How it does that is beyond me. 

4) This one has a connection to the order of the quests. When I played for the first time, Feros was the second quest I did after Noveria. Then, on Virmire, Shepard didn't knew anything about the Reapers. How did that happen with the knowledge of the Prothean race (including the Reaper war) in his mind is basically a plot hole. Thankfully it's avoidable, I just do Feros the last. 

5) Another connection to the quest order. The Cypher was given to Saren to make him understand the visions from the beacon. Why did he understand the visions while we needed Liara with her Prothean knowledge to make sense of it? Benezia, perhaps, but she was already dead. I doubt Saren just got some random asari with the same qualification as Liara.

[StarcloudSWG]

For point 5, Liara was necessary not to understand the visions, but to tie the knowledge of what was basically a star chart, with an actual planet.

Saren did not have Liara, but Saren did have another source of knowledge readily available to him. You might recall something called Sovereign? The Reapers knew where Ilos was, just not that there was a research facility there with the prototype Prothean-built mass relay.

As for points 2 & 3, I reiterate my understanding of how Asari melds work. It is not a straight 'bit for bit' transfer of raw data, but rather a sensory signal that is processed in ways and terms, impressions, memories that is familiar to the receiving mind. The same principle of transliteration is expressed in ME 3, on the 'geth server' mission.

[Vazgen]

For point 5, Liara was necessary not to understand the visions, but to tie the knowledge of what was basically a star chart, with an actual planet.

Saren did not have Liara, but Saren did have another source of knowledge readily available to him. You might recall something called Sovereign? The Reapers knew where Ilos was, just not that there was a research facility there with the prototype Prothean-built mass relay.

Well, Liara says it herself that her knowledge of the Protheans helps to make sense of the visions. You say that Shepard actually figures it all out just doesn't know the name of the planet? Couldn't he search the extranet?

[StarcloudSWG]

Shepard probably could, but I think you're under the impression that it would be easy to find, using extranet searches. First there is the difficulty in describing the memories with sufficient precision to even define the search, then there is sorting through millions of images... With Liara, she's basically has in her memories and education, a specialized, Prothean specific database. And since she has 'seen' the same parts of the vision that Shepard has, finding the reference was simple for her.

If it had not been a Prothean planet, I doubt Liara would have been able to name it.

[Vazgen]

Shepard probably could, but I think you're under the impression that it would be easy to find, using extranet searches. First there is the difficulty in describing the memories with sufficient precision to even define the search, then there is sorting through millions of images... With Liara, she's basically has in her memories and education, a specialized, Prothean specific database. And since she has 'seen' the same parts of the vision that Shepard has, finding the reference was simple for her.

If it had not been a Prothean planet, I doubt Liara would have been able to name it.

I'm not saying that it would've been easy. But I do think that it would've been able to find in a short enough time to avoid getting Liara at all. Description of the star, number of planets, their properties - for someone with an access to the Alliance and Council databases it should be quite possible. Planet location is not really a secret, the research facility is

[MrFob]

Hey Vazger, answering to your first post:

1) The point is, it's not "knowladge" per se that is transferred here. As StarcloudSWG says, it's not bit for bit information. With our current understanding of neuroscience, we have no idea, how to measure the computational or memory cost of understanding something. Therefore, I think it is plausible to be transferred, simply because the entire concept of the telepathic communication goes very far into the realm of fiction.

2) Kind of the same as 1. This is pure speculation. Also, it is not necessary that we get a full understanding of a prothean consciousness. Shepard can't really make much more sense of the visions then before directly. The changes seem to happen more on a unconscious and abstract level. I can imagine this as infusing him with some sort of "false memories, which would grant him access to the cypher. It would be the most easy way,  that I can think of to transfer such knowladge without a physical change to the structure of his brain (although that is of course pure speculation as well).

3. It's clear that Asari can meld with anyone. They must have some mechanism to adapt to the partners nervous system. How that is supposed to work beats me. I would agree that it would be tough to come up with a feasible explanation for it with today's science. It seems to be that in the ME universe, there is a certain fundamental similarity between the nervous systems of sapient species (just like their generally bipedal nature). It doesn't make much sense to me (especially with something like the Hannar) but it seems to be an implication of the authors, right from the start of the series.

4) Again, the cypher is not about specificknowledge. Even if the protheans of Feros came into contact with the reapers, this would not be transferred by the cypher as I interpret it (see above).There is a bit of a plot whole here though: How did the Thorian and the reapers avoid contact? Feros doesn't exactly look like it was destroyed by the reapers. Did they leave before the invasion? If so, why would they leave a planet with this kind of infrastructure? Back in the day, Feros must have looked something like Illium. How did it nit get destroyed. For that amtter, how did the Thorian go unnoticed on such a planet if it enthralled a bunch of protheans back in their hayday. Wouldn't this have been noticed by outsiders? Not directly connected to the cypher but still, I am not quite clear on these points.

5. Shepard had Liara, Saren had Sovereign. Both know heaps about the protheans. That must have helped and it goes to show again that the cypher apparently was not entirely complete and even more knowledge must have been necessary to make more sense of the vision. It's just that getting some shimmer of perspective on the protheans helped.

 

@StarcloudSWG & SporkFu: Yea, the reading ability of Javik is what links the genetic markers to to memory and thought, which is implausible IMO (see the OP). I could even have some form of understanding for it, if they had kept it to the protheans, that some form of chemical can encode memories and then perceived as such by another prothean, that I can even get behind to some degree (although it would have to be something other than DNA). However, Javik can also read Krogan, humans and Hanar. That doesn't make much sense to me.

[Iakus]

I always thought the Cipher wasn't knowledge or genetic data, but perception.  The Thorian's contact with Prothean thralls gave it a glimpse into the workings of their minds.  How they process images, points of reference, language, and so on.  When Shepard received this perception, he/she has a bit of extra subliminal context to make sense of the images from the beacon.

 

As to MrFob's fork comparison:  I have seen, with my own eyes, toddlers picking up a square block and hold it to their ears like it was a phone.  Why?  Because it is was the same size and shape as a cell phone, and that's what they see their parents do.  Before they even conceptualize building things with the block, this is the perspective they have!  A piece of wood, a cell phone, it's all the same.  Until they gain the understanding to tell the difference between the two.

[Vazgen]

It's hard to argue on this issue without bringing subsequent games into discussion since it was just taken for granted in Mass Effect 1 with Shiala even telling that it's impossible to explain

Shiala says that it'll make Shepard to think like a Prothean, that's basically the reason that Saren wanted it. The way I see it, it would require the extensive knowledge of culture, history of the race as well as possibility to view the world from PoV of Prothean physiology to accomplish that. I just find it very hard to believe that such knowledge can be transferred without any adverse effects on the subject. Regarding asari mind meld, do they actually transfer something? The way I understood it, the asari have to be careful not to overpower the subject's mind during the meld. The Ardat-Yakshi are the ones who don't care about that. And if an Ardat-Yakshi can overpower one's brain that way, I can only imagine what this kind of extensive knowledge will do. Instead Shepard just goes "I'm fine, let's do it again"  

The cypher is a tool akin to the Crucible in fact. No one knows what it does or what getting it will accomplish but everyone just goes with that it is important. I agree that its exact function is buried in fantasy, especially with our current understanding of neuroscience. That's why it stands out in Mass Effect 1. The game explains almost everything in a believable way, FTL, biotics and other things that can be considered space magic make sense for a scientifically-oriented mind. The cypher is not. 

About the Thorian not being discovered, I believe it was, Reapers just left it alone. I think it is a part of Feros's natural flora, a plant that just exists and doesn't care about expanding on other worlds or building synthetics. Shiala mentions it witnessing more than one cycle, I think. That's why I find it confusing that Shepard doesn't figure out that Sovereign is a Reaper before talking to it on Virmire. 

The whole point of having Liara's help kind of contradicts what the cypher is for. We gain the understanding of a Prothean race only for some Prothean researcher to explain it to us? I was fine with needing her help prior to Feros, but after that it just becomes unnecessary. If I understand Prothean communication right, they don't just send out images, those images contain the name of place, coordinates, star class etc. Without that information their communication would be less efficient than written text. And if there is such an information, the cypher should make Shepard be able to understand it. Instead we need to rescue Liara (someone with knowledge of the Protheans gathered from studying their ruins) to explain it to us. 

The only way it can make sense is that information is not organized and Liara organizes it in Shepard's mind during the meld. But it is never mentioned that asari are capable of that (in all three games), the only thing we saw is sending/receiving information. 

[SporkFu]

The protheans were studying all of the 'advanced' races of this cycle, presumably determining their worth as imperial subjects. What if they implanted these genetic markers in everyone's DNA so that they could communicate with us all later, when we evolved.... like, similar to the reapers, the protheans wanted us all to evolve along the paths they desired, only the big ass reaper invasion got in the way. No longer under prothean influence, we evolved along different paths and that's why "communication is still primitive in this cycle." 

 

Holy sh*t the reapers actually saved everyone in our cycle from becoming prothean slaves. 

[MrFob]

@Vazgen: I think the cypher, as complicated and removed from anything we can experience in reality as the concept is, is still more tangible than the crucible.At least with the cypher, we can discuss it like we do here, in this topic. The crucible is a complete black box. We are never given any meaningful information and it's functionality is arbitrary. Anyway, don't want to discuss the crucible.

As for Shiala's words, as you say, she had time describing what the sypher was. "to think like a prothean" is like an over-simplification on her part. Shepard clearly doesn't know any specifics about prothean culture and such even after getting the cypher (at least s/he seems as surprised by Javik's demeanor as everyone else).

 

Good point on the Thorian and the reapers. That makes sense to me. Still wondering about the other protheans but maybe the Thorian didn't enthrall anyone until the reapers already showed up and everyone was too busy to deal with it.

 

Liara doesn't really concern me that much. As I see it, Shepard need multiple  sources of help to get all the information out of the visions. One is the cypher, one is Liara with her factual knowledge about certain things and one is the second beacon. I don't really see the problem there.

 

@SporkFu: Interesting point, though I still don't see how this would work with DNA.

[cap and gown]

The protheans were studying all of the 'advanced' races of this cycle, presumably determining their worth as imperial subjects. What if they implanted these genetic markers in everyone's DNA so that they could communicate with us all later, when we evolved.... like, similar to the reapers, the protheans wanted us all to evolve along the paths they desired, only the big ass reaper invasion got in the way. No longer under prothean influence, we evolved along different paths and that's why "communication is still primitive in this cycle." 

 

Holy sh*t the reapers actually saved everyone in our cycle from becoming prothean slaves. 

 

You realize that you are buying into the "evolution takes a few weeks to develop a new species" fallacy of the Mass Effect universe?

[Vazgen]

Discussing Crucible's workings is clearly possible but I won't continue that.
I haven't seen Shepard being surprised at Javik. It may be attributed to the Cypher or two videos he watches to open the pod, we can't really tell.
I've also deliberately avoided ME3 events. In a non-imported game Liara says that it is the Prothean beacon that allows Shepard to understand the videos. In an imported game it's the Cypher.
What does Liara say after Virmire if only Feros is left? It might shed some light on what the Cypher actually does.

[cap and gown]

What does Liara say after Virmire if only Feros is left? It might shed some light on what the Cypher actually does.

 

I just did that, but my memory is a little fuzzy. Something along the lines of "has your vision changed?" Shepard answer yes, but he can't make sense of it. Then Liara suggests heading to Feros.

[SporkFu]

You realize that you are buying into the "evolution takes a few weeks to develop a new species" fallacy of the Mass Effect universe?

Not sure what you mean here... We have no idea how long the protheans were observing us, and how they might have intended to genetically manipulate -- uplift -- us, or how long it might have continued if the reapers hadn't interrupted by invading them. And then we evolved for fifty thousand years on our own afterwards... Not saying any of that did happen, just ... maybe.

[Big T]

The Progheans where doing genetic modifacations to the asari to give them biotics, whose not to say in the meantime they gave them other mods to be able to understand more about the species they were going to be serving. Give them a bit of understanding. The Thorian was around with the Protheans and had first hand knowledge of them, while the asari lost touch with some of it cause they were no longer around, take language and writing for instance. Saren needed Shiala to obtain the Cypher from the Thorian. Now we get the understanding from Shiala, but we don't know squat, enter our Prothean expert to clear things up. Having the genes that were modded by Protheans, she has a way of reading it that she does not know about, but shepards is less diluted cause it was handed straight off and diluted through generations of DNA melds. The cypher could be more refreshed understanding than the Asari's already present genetic modding. Why do the asari scientists not see gene modding in themselves? Is it really a mod if your species had it for as long as your history goes?