49 réponses à ce sujet

[Revan Reborn]

Out of all the news we received from N7 day about the next Mass Effect, what I truly found compelling was not only the continued focus on exploration, but what BioWare had to say about space. While I always enjoyed exploring the galaxy in the Normandy, that always felt like one of the least enjoyable aspects of Mass Effect and the largest disconnect.

 

Much like the team stated, it felt like a "thing" more along the lines of a mini-game, rather than a "place" and something that you could actively explore. When I consider games that have achieved space exploration well, I think of Jump to Lightspeed or future titles such as Star Citizen. I don't necessarily mean all of the complexities and depth of a space simulator either (although I would love that), but feeling as if you really control and guide your ship, be it the Normandy or something new.

 

We've heard a lot of talk about the Mako, which I believe is fantastic, because I felt the original vision for the vehicle itself was amazing and ambitious. Certainly from what we've heard, it sounds like BioWare is raising the standards to an all new high, and hopefully as they alluded to, we'll see this in terms of space exploration as well.

 

What are your thoughts on space being a place rather than a thing? Would you like to actually pilot a ship like the Normandy and cruise the galaxy? Or did you prefer the galaxy map and the Normandy mini-game avoiding reapers and moving over planets? What do you envision space as a place could actually mean?

[cap and gown]

I have mentioned this elsewhere, but I will repeat it here: perhaps the hashtag #space alludes to an actual game mechanic and not just spacey, sci-fiey type stuff.

 

I do think they need to keep it simple, though, if they do it. Focus on their strengths, which is ground combat as Aria reminds us.

[Tonymac]

I'd pilot my ship if BioWare supported the Oculus Rift in game.  Some of those flight sims I've seen look pretty tight.  In reality though, even in the MEU, space is preposterously big.  Piloting in the solar system might be cool, but for the big time Mass Relay jumps, it would be insanely boring.  Shuttles fly like bricks - ergo boring.  Bioware is not into making flight sims anyhow, so I think we will get nothing along those lines.

 

The Reaper avoidance mini-game in ME3 was horrid.  I never want to see it or its ilk again.

 

As for space being a place, rather than a thing, you most likely will get a certain experience or feel for a region.  Some regions are lifeless and dead - traces of an old civilization dotting entire systems, tombs, graveyards.  Think of it as a big mysterious area.  Other systems might be kind of like how Mankind would be if we were able to colonize a few different solar systems, or even just our own but in a lot of detail.  We have temperature and atmosphere requirements that would lead to  early dome designs before we could get planetary atmospheric processors online (if at all).  We could change small planets and moons - but it would be done in our own signature style and architecture.  This might give the region of Sol a feel.  Warm, green, safe - the cradle of our civilization.  This can be repeated for many of the different spacefaring species out there, present and past.  Hopefully Bioware does not do too much of this dead and spooky stuff or show highly advanced civilizations that would break the 50K year Reaper cycle and the inevitable cleanups that occur.  But you never know with these cats - they break their own lore almost whimsically.  

[Revan Reborn]

I have mentioned this elsewhere, but I will repeat it here: perhaps the hashtag #space alludes to an actual game mechanic and not just spacey, sci-fiey type stuff.

 

I do think they need to keep it simple, though, if they do it. Focus on their strengths, which is ground combat as Aria reminds us.

Certainly there is room to improve ground combat, but there is so much more that ME can be. It doesn't need to just be a linear story following the path of one hero. I want Mass Effect to actually be a universe that I can encounter and explore. BioWare has always teased at that, but never had the technology or the power to pull it off effectively before. Now I believe they do. One of the best things I believe they can do is further expand on what has already come before.

 

I'd pilot my ship if BioWare supported the Oculus Rift in game.  Some of those flight sims I've seen look pretty tight.  In reality though, even in the MEU, space is preposterously big.  Piloting in the solar system might be cool, but for the big time Mass Relay jumps, it would be insanely boring.  Shuttles fly like bricks - ergo boring.  Bioware is not into making flight sims anyhow, so I think we will get nothing along those lines.

 

The Reaper avoidance mini-game in ME3 was horrid.  I never want to see it or its ilk again.

 

As for space being a place, rather than a thing, you most likely will get a certain experience or feel for a region.  Some regions are lifeless and dead - traces of an old civilization dotting entire systems, tombs, graveyards.  Think of it as a big mysterious area.  Other systems might be kind of like how Mankind would be if we were able to colonize a few different solar systems, or even just our own but in a lot of detail.  We have temperature and atmosphere requirements that would lead to  early dome designs before we could get planetary atmospheric processors online (if at all).  We could change small planets and moons - but it would be done in our own signature style and architecture.  This might give the region of Sol a feel.  Warm, green, safe - the cradle of our civilization.  This can be repeated for many of the different spacefaring species out there, present and past.  Hopefully Bioware does not do too much of this dead and spooky stuff or show highly advanced civilizations that would break the 50K year Reaper cycle and the inevitable cleanups that occur.  But you never know with these cats - they break their own lore almost whimsically.  

I don't care for virtual reality myself as it feels like another 3D gimmick, but I would love to pilot the Normandy rather than click through a galaxy map. Obviously BioWare would remove the monotony or uninteresting sequences of space travel that might be an issue with real life. The Normandy certainly didn't maneuver like any shuttle I've ever seen. As long as flight is fun and engaging, I don't believe they'd have an issue. Again the flight simulation was more wishful thinking, but I do believe it's very possible we may be able to pilot our own ship rather than partaking in a tedious and uninteresting mini-game like the previous installments.

 

I certainly believe more activities to do in space are part of making it a "place" rather than a thing. I also believe just having a more tangible connection, such as actually flying, would help make it seem more attached to the game. Immersion is the key to providing any suspension of disbelief and the more immersive (yet fun) space travel is, the more likely people are going to believe it's a place they can discover and enjoy. Just like they are approaching planets with the Mako, they should approach space with a Normandy-like ship in a similar fashion. That's the only way I believe they'll be able to make space truly a place.

[Vazgen]

I believe we will get something like 3D version of ME1 Galaxy Map. Remember how we didn't have the ship to control there? And now take the early prototype gameplay they showed on E3, when they switched planets in 3D mode. I actually like it, controlling mini ship on a Galaxy Map is weird

Piloting the ship is a complex task, I doubt we'll have anything like that. Some shuttle at most, since piloting a frigate like Normandy requires a crew (all those guys and gals sitting in the CIC when you go to talk to Joker)

[Anacronian Stryx]

I have mentioned this elsewhere, but I will repeat it here: perhaps the hashtag #space alludes to an actual game mechanic and not just spacey, sci-fiey type stuff.

 

I do think they need to keep it simple, though, if they do it. Focus on their strengths, which is ground combat as Aria reminds us.

That way nothing new will ever be added the games will just be the same over and over again.

[Revan Reborn]

I believe we will get something like 3D version of ME1 Galaxy Map. Remember how we didn't have the ship to control there? And now take the early prototype gameplay they showed on E3, when they switched planets in 3D mode. I actually like it, controlling mini ship on a Galaxy Map is weird

Piloting the ship is a complex task, I doubt we'll have anything like that. Some shuttle at most, since piloting a frigate like Normandy requires a crew (all those guys and gals sitting in the CIC when you go to talk to Joker)

I'm not sure I'm following. We always had to control a miniature Normandy when traversing the galaxy in all of the Mass Effect games. BioWare just added elements such as fuel and probes as well as reapers to change the formula.

 

Also I was referring to being a helmsman like Joker. Clearly any kind of war-class cruiser, even a small ship like the Normandy has a co-pilot, operations, navigator, various positions to manage the complexities that go with a ship and crew. It wouldn't be complicated just to have the ability to steer and control a ship like the Normandy. It doesn't have to be anything complicated. Just take turn space exploration from a 2D experience and make it a 3D experience. There are a lot of possibilities in terms of innovation on the space front.

[Revan Reborn]

That way nothing new will ever be added the games will just be the same over and over again.

I agree with this sentiment. The best franchises in the industry are those that innovate and constantly rethink how they previously approached various systems and gameplay. If all BioWare does is stick to the same old formula, we may as well have ME4 (which they said this game isn't) and turn ME into an annual franchise like CoD.

 

I do not want that. I don't want ME1, 2, or 3. I want an entirely re-envisioned Mass Effect that builds off those familiar pillars, but reaches for new heights and standards never seen before. That's what great game developers do. The original formula for the Shepard trilogy worked for those games and that generation. We are in a new generation now, and I want to see a complete overhaul of what we knew post-Shepard.

[Vazgen]

I'm not sure I'm following. We always had to control a miniature Normandy when traversing the galaxy in all of the Mass Effect games. BioWare just added elements such as fuel and probes as well as reapers to change the formula.

 

Also I was referring to being a helmsman like Joker. Clearly any kind of war-class cruiser, even a small ship like the Normandy has a co-pilot, operations, navigator, various positions to manage the complexities that go with a ship and crew. It wouldn't be complicated just to have the ability to steer and control a ship like the Normandy. It doesn't have to be anything complicated. Just take turn space exploration from a 2D experience and make it a 3D experience. There are a lot of possibilities in terms of innovation on the space front.

In ME1 there was no miniature Normandy. We had a cross-like shape within systems as well. It actually felt like charting a course

[Anacronian Stryx]

In ME1 there was no miniature Normandy. We had a cross-like shape within systems as well. It actually felt like charting a course

Still it was less than they originally planned : 

 

(0.56)

[Anacronian Stryx]

I agree with this sentiment. The best franchises in the industry are those that innovate and constantly rethink how they previously approached various systems and gameplay. If all BioWare does is stick to the same old formula, we may as well have ME4 (which they said this game isn't) and turn ME into an annual franchise like CoD.

 

I do not want that. I don't want ME1, 2, or 3. I want an entirely re-envisioned Mass Effect that builds off those familiar pillars, but reaches for new heights and standards never seen before. That's what great game developers do. The original formula for the Shepard trilogy worked for those games and that generation. We are in a new generation now, and I want to see a complete overhaul of what we knew post-Shepard.

Same here - I do really want them to start adding on to the franchise make it bigger and more expansive in each instalment rather than  keeping to remove features.

[Tonymac]

Still it was less than they originally planned :

 

(0.56)

 

You know, I like that vid.  You can see more of Casey's vision than he was able to make happen, and it was pretty awesome.  Also, if that was an M-8 - it really was deadly on full auto.

[Vazgen]

Still it was less than they originally planned :

This actually looks pretty close to what they've shown (0:33)

 

Also, it's interesting, about 90% of the trailer was later changed or basically removed

[Revan Reborn]

In ME1 there was no miniature Normandy. We had a cross-like shape within systems as well. It actually felt like charting a course

Ah fair enough. I stand corrected. It's ironic because I was playing ME1 only a few months ago and entirely forgot about how the galaxy map worked. Just goes to show how memorable it was. Either way, I'd like to have a more engaging experience with exploration rather than just clicking through UI all of the time. That really breaks the fun of exploring space.

 

Same here - I do really want them to start adding on to the franchise make it bigger and more expansive in each instalment rather than  keeping to remove features.

Exactly. That's what making great games is all about. If you never innovate and take risks, you never outdo the work you've done before. I want ME to continue to be relevant and an amazing RPG for many years to come. BioWare won't do that if they continue using the same old formula.

[Anacronian Stryx]

This actually looks pretty close to what they've shown (0:33)

 

Also, it's interesting, about 90% of the trailer was later changed or basically removed

Primary reason for that was disk space - few people remember it but back then Microsoft didn't allow game companies to install games on the tiny 360 harddrives (20 gig) so a whole host of games had to remove or change features so they didn't take up so much space on the disks since it was all they had to work with.

[Revan Reborn]

This actually looks pretty close to what they've shown (0:33)

 

Also, it's interesting, about 90% of the trailer was later changed or basically removed

Ah I see what others are suggesting by the 3D galaxy map navigation. I'd still prefer something a bit more interactive rather than a UI, but it's a step up from the previous games. I always take these teaser videos with a grain of salt. It's a lot of window-dressing, theories, and concepts. Nothing is set in stone and certainly Casey isn't even part of BioWare anymore. We'll have to see how much any of this actually makes it into the final experience.

[Revan Reborn]

Primary reason for that was disk space - few people remember it but back then Microsoft didn't allow game companies to install games on the tiny 360 harddrives (20 gig) so a whole host of games had to remove or change features so they didn't take up so much space on the disks since it was all they had to work with.

I can believe that, which is a shame honestly. That definitely won't be a barrier for new gen as they have much larger hard drives than their predecessors. Always a bit disappointing every time game development is slighted by console limitations. I'd prefer if BioWare just build their visions on PC first, and then make them work on console. Of course I'm a PC gamer, so I might be a bit biased. Just a tad.

[Vazgen]

I doubt they'll give us control of the ship. There are a lot of complications with that, like showing the ship destroyed every time you fly it straight in the star  

I do hope for some discovery sense though. In ME1, you could hover that cross over asteroid belts and sometimes discover some hidden relics. Would be cool if we could discover some planets with missions that way in ME3, especially combined with 3D Galaxy Map.

The only problem I see with 3D Galaxy Map is that it makes space seem small. Not sure how they're going to circumvent it.

[Revan Reborn]

I doubt they'll give us control of the ship. There are a lot of complications with that, like showing the ship destroyed every time you fly it straight in the star

I do hope for some discovery sense though. In ME1, you could hover that cross over asteroid belts and sometimes discover some hidden relics. Would be cool if we could discover some planets with missions that way in ME3, especially combined with 3D Galaxy Map.

The only problem I see with 3D Galaxy Map is that it makes space seem small. Not sure how they're going to circumvent it.

That's my issue. Space still feels like a "thing" rather than a "place" if you use a galaxy map. I think the only way to get rid of that and make it feel massive is to let the player actually pilot the ship. There would be certain cues they can provide, such as if you get too close to a star, the ship's AI or systems would auto-pilot you away to avoid damage. I just believe that kind of space exploration would top anything BioWare has done previously. If they just turn the galaxy map into a 3D piece, it's better, but they aren't really fixing the problem with that type of exploration to begin with.

[Vazgen]

That's my issue. Space still feels like a "thing" rather than a "place" if you use a galaxy map. I think the only way to get rid of that and make it feel massive is to let the player actually pilot the ship. There would be certain cues they can provide, such as if you get too close to a star, the ship's AI or systems would auto-pilot you away to avoid damage. I just believe that kind of space exploration would top anything BioWare has done previously. If they just turn the galaxy map into a 3D piece, it's better, but they aren't really fixing the problem with that type of exploration to begin with.

One way to get rid of that is to actually give us the outside view. Like if you get close to a planet you can look from the cockpit or the starboard observation and see that planet. That would give the sense of the Galaxy Map navigation actually affecting the ship's position

[Anacronian Stryx]

That's my issue. Space still feels like a "thing" rather than a "place" if you use a galaxy map. I think the only way to get rid of that and make it feel massive is to let the player actually pilot the ship. There would be certain cues they can provide, such as if you get too close to a star, the ship's AI or systems would auto-pilot you away to avoid damage. I just believe that kind of space exploration would top anything BioWare has done previously. If they just turn the galaxy map into a 3D piece, it's better, but they aren't really fixing the problem with that type of exploration to begin with.

It could be a thing in between where you don't have direct control over the ship - that's the helmsmans job but you are on the bridge looking at screens and such having command and you can issue orders like "takes us closer to that asteroid" or "fly us into the sun" and the crew would respond "no way in hell...captain"

 

But if you give sane orders the helmsman will drive the ship in real space and you could look out the window and see you getting closer to a planet or asteroid.. (just not stars because stars=bad for ships)

[InterrogationBear]

What a weird coincidence that EA is currently working on two Star Wars games. Both may feature space combat and will use Frostbite.

 

Talk about synergy.

[Revan Reborn]

One way to get rid of that is to actually give us the outside view. Like if you get close to a planet you can look from the cockpit or the starboard observation and see that planet. That would give the sense of the Galaxy Map navigation actually affecting the ship's position

That would help, but again, why set the bar so low? I want to be fully immersed that I'm actually exploring space. Again, I don't want to play the "plot coordinates" or "click through UI" minigame to travel around. That's not fun and I've never personally enjoyed it. That was always the largest disconnect in ME for me. I'd rather BioWare try to get away from that and really provide a more immersive experience if possible.

[goishen]

Now, what would really impress me is if they married space flight sims (Star Citizen, X series, Elite Dangerous) with ME series.  Although, that would be a little difficult.  Ship takeovers with your crew.  Pirating goods.  Plus, it would give a nice sense of purpose to the universe.  ME is the master of the universe at giving us purpose.  Instead of, "Hey, you can explore!  You can do anything and aren't bound by the restrictions of a story!"  Really?  Alt-F4.  I can do anything on my own time.  And have tons more fun doing it.

 

Plus have a 3D tactical sensor map that lists off everything within sensor range.  Have it pause the game so that we will know if it can outgun us, out run us, out maneuver us, etc.  And have the sensors be upgradable.  Dude, I can come up with all sorts of stuff.

[Revan Reborn]

It could be a thing in between where you don't have direct control over the ship - that's the helmsmans job but you are on the bridge looking at screens and such having command and you can issue orders like "takes us closer to that asteroid" or "fly us into the sun" and the crew would respond "no way in hell...captain"

 

But if you give sane orders the helmsman will drive the ship in real space and you could look out the window and see you getting closer to a planet or asteroid.. (just not stars because stars=bad for ships)

That's an interesting idea. Again, I still believe it would be easier if we just controlled the ship. Consider Assassin's Creed 4: Black Flag as an example. You are the captain of your own pirate ship. There are plenty of crew members who have their various tasks, but you control the ship. Very straightforward and simple. Very fun and addictive.

 

What a weird coincidence that EA is currently working on two Star Wars games. Both may feature space combat and will use Frostbite.

 

Talk about synergy.

Star Wars Battlefront and the game Visceral is working on. It's a beautiful thing. Mass Effect could learn a lot depending on what DICE and Visceral do.

 

Now, what would really impress me is if they married space flight sims (Star Citizen, X series, Elite Dangerous) with ME series.  Although, that would be a little difficult.  Ship takeovers with your crew.  Pirating goods.  Plus, it would give a nice sense of purpose to the universe.  ME is the master of the universe at giving us purpose.  Instead of, "Hey, you can explore!  You can do anything and aren't bound by the restrictions of a story!"  Really?  Alt-F4.  I can do anything on my own time.  And have tons more fun doing it.

 

Plus have a 3D tactical sensor map that lists off everything within sensor range.  Have it pause the game so that we will know if it can outgun us, out run us, out maneuver us, etc.  And have the sensors be upgradable.  Dude, I can come up with all sorts of stuff.

I would love even if they had the most simplistic of flight/space simulations. It would be so much fun and gratifying to actually fly the Normandy rather than click through a galaxy map to move around. There is a lot BioWare could do, and honestly this would just be the foundation. With every successive game they could further expand on the space experience. Just look at Star Citizen and how it is combining the space simulator and the FPS mechanics all into one with seamless planet entry and landing. Mass Effect could learn a lot from that. If BioWare just sticks with a 3D galaxy map navigation, they'll eventually have to throw out the system anyways.