243 réponses à ce sujet

[RobRam10]

I would have to agree Cullen's response at that moment was probably not his brightest moment.

[Br3admax]

Haha, you honestly think the right answer is the Divine?

 

It's the templars because that's who watches over them and therefore have an impact on their lives, well-being and so on. The Divine is just a word for 99,9% of Thedas, the templars are a cold reality to almost every mage and it's 24/7.

Hahaha, you actually believe the Templars represent the Chantry, which was the point being made against a Chantry priest. But honestly, again, where is your evidence. Stop repeating your opinion over and over again and actually reply with actual evidence. Of course if you don't have any,  "I concede." Is a lot shorter to write. 

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

and mages need protected from mundanes.

And vice versa.

[Inprea]

Guy was tortured for months, what did you expect?

 

Doesn't matter he serves as evidence that the chantry doesn't see mages as people.

 

Mages aren't people, like you and me. 

Mages aren't people like you and me. 

 

What's the difference between those two sentences?

Finally, Cullen is a Templar, where as Justinia was a Divine. I wonder who represents the Chantry more. 

 

He also goes into a nice rant about how a person can't set a city on fire. You claimed there was no evidence that the chantry sees mages as weapons rather then people. Cullen's line do indeed provide evidence that the chantry doesn't see mages as people but rather as weapons.

 

To the mages a templar represents the chantry far more then the divine. You see the templar everyday after all and apparently the templars believe they represent the maker more so then the divine. After all they believe they can overrule her orders and leave the chantry.

 

As mentioned before there was also how Uldred was treated whenever he tried to offer assistance beyond the roll of artillery. I believe the wording was. "We won't trust any lives to your spells mage." That and how a mages best hope for getting out of the circle especially for an extended time period is a war.

[Chibi Elemental]

The templars are not the chantry though, the temlpars were created by a treaty that the chantry and the old inquisition aka the Seekers of truth who were never sanctioned by the chantry. While they are militant they have seperat orginisational structure and the templars have broken from the chantry at this point in the story as they did no agree on how to settle the mage rebellion.

[Br3admax]

He also goes into a nice rant about how a person can't set a city on fire. You claimed there was no evidence that the chantry sees mages as weapons rather then people. Cullen's line do indeed provide evidence that the chantry doesn't see mages as people but rather as weapons.

He actually doesn't say a person can't set a city on fire. He says, "They can set a city on fire.."

To the mages a templar represents the chantry far more then the divine. You see the templar everyday after all and apparently the templars believe they represent the maker more so then the divine. After all they believe they can overrule her orders and leave the chantry.

That sounds an awful lot like an opinion to me. I've never seen a mage say the Templars represent the Chantry, nor was that the claim made here. 

 

 

As mentioned before there was also how Uldred was treated whenever he tried to offer assistance beyond the roll of artillery. I believe the wording was. "We won't trust any lives to your spells mage." That and how a mages best hope for getting out of the circle especially for an extended time period is a war.

What does that have to do with mages not being people? Absolutely nothing. 

[Chernaya]

I spared Anders. That said, my best guess is that he's either fully lost himself to Vengeance by now or has died... or both. With Justice's VA being confirmed, I guess we might find out.

[Inprea]

He actually doesn't say a person can't set a city on fire. He says, "They can set a city on fire.."

That sounds an awful lot like an opinion to me. I've never seen a mage say the Templars represent the Chantry, nor was that the claim made here. 

What does that have to do with mages not being people? Absolutely nothing. 

 

After he says that they aren't people.

 

Then perhaps you'd like to explain this better.

Hahaha, you actually believe the Templars represent the Chantry, which was the point being made against a Chantry priest. But honestly, again, where is your evidence. Stop repeating your opinion over and over again and actually reply with actual evidence. Of course if you don't have any,  "I concede." Is a lot shorter to write. 

 

Is that an opinion you're stating there? How about you provide a quote that clearly states that the templars don't represent the chantry?

 

What does that have to do with mages not being people? Absolutely nothing.

 

Actions speak louder then words. That the cleric relegated Uldred to the roll or artillery shows that she does ineed see the mages as weapons fit only for killing. As does the chantry only letting the mages out in large numbers during a war.

[Chibi Elemental]

I spared Anders. That said, my best guess is that he's either fully lost himself to Vengeance by now or has died... or both. With Justice's VA being confirmed, I guess we might find out.

 

sadly this is true and if he comes back in my world I will sorrowfully murder knife him again T~T poor mr cute mage from awakening what has bioware done to thee T~T

[Br3admax]

After he says that they aren't people.

Again, he didn't say they weren't people. He said they weren't normal people. His quote actually goes more like you can't treat them like normal people and that they can't be your friends. Either way, Cullen isn't the Chantry. :|

Is that an opinion you're stating there? How about you provide a quote that clearly states that the templars don't represent the chantry?

I'm not sure if this is serious. Are you actually claiming that Cullen, one out of many Knight-Captains, represents the entire Templar Order, and they the Chantry, more than the Divine? Also the fun thing about making claims is that you have to prove them. There are multitudes of quotes that claim the Divine speaks the word of Andraste, like the rest of the quote I showed earlier. Not a single one says the Templars represent the Chantry. 

 

 

Actions speak louder then words. That the cleric relegated Uldred to the roll or artillery shows that she does ineed see the mages as weapons fit only for killing. As does the chantry only letting the mages out in large numbers during a war.

 

I'm glad you got all of that from her saying that she doesn't trust Uldred to light the beacon. Not a single person in the Chantry mistreats you as a mage, but hey she said she didn't trust Uldred's spells, so she hates him and doesn't think he's a person. Sounds like more of your opinion to me. And the Chantry doesn't let the mages out in large numbers during war. They sent seven to Ostagar. The Chantry doesn't release them because they're beacons for demons and extremely dangerous at all times. 

[Aldrick]

Though speaking of slaughter I could also ask what about the slaughter of the innocent people who were killed by an abomination or through ander's actions? are they justified?

 

Anders actions are completely justified.  The Grand Cleric had to die, or otherwise nothing would have changed.  There are three people who are to blame for what happened in Kirkwall:  Meredith, Orsino, and Grand Cleric Elthina.

 

Meredith is to blame for obvious reasons.  Her authoritarian tactics alienated mages, encouraging them to rebel in small incremental groups or flee when they could no longer take it or feared for their lives or safety.

 

Orsino never took a hard enough stand against Meredith and relied overly much on Elthina to solve the problem.  He was trying to keep order in the Circle and play by the rules. 

 

Grand Cleric Elthina sought a peaceful solution to the conflict, and attempted to mediate--however, the conflict was never resolved and only got worse.

 

And so these three people trapped the mages in a horrible cycle.  Meredith would crack down on the mages, and some would rebel or flee in desperation.  Because some mages rebelled or fled, she had more justification for cracking down.  Orsino worked within the system, and runs off to Elthina.  The Grand Cleric mediates the conflict, and it inevitably ends with Meredith keeping her gains over the mages.  Eventually, more mages would rebel or flee, Meredith would crack down again, Orsino would run to Elthina who would try and settle things peacefully... and on and on... Things finally reached the point of no return when even some of the Templars started to rebel.

 

Had the cycle continued more and more mages would have slipped away, and eventually the annulment would have seemed necessary--especially after some templars started to defect to the mages side.  It would have grew harder and harder for Elthina to resist calls for annulment, and of course by this point the Red Lyrium had started to send Meredith off the deep end anyway--so it is unclear whether or not even Elthina could have stopped her if she wanted too.

 

Had any of these three individuals have chosen differently the cycle would have been broken. 

 

Had Meredith been more sympathetic to the mages, and eased her oppressive tactics, then fewer and fewer would have rebelled or fled.  This would have been more effective in getting Meredith what she wanted, but instead she continued to make matters worse by constantly tightening the screws.

 

Had Orsino decided that he would stand up to Meredith himself rather than running to Elthina, organized the mages, gained support from the loyalist Templars, then he could have THREATENED rebellion and perhaps forced Meredith to step down to keep the peace and had a more pro-mage Templar take her place.  Failing that he could have carried out that rebellion and likely have been successful as he would have had the support of the entire Circle behind him plus some of the Templars.

 

Had Grand Cleric Elthina decided to reign Meredith in earlier, and sided more forcefully with Orsino--and showed greater disfavor and displeasure to Meredith--then that might have been enough to reign her in... at least before the Red Lyrium got to her head.

 

Since none of this happened, this leaves us with Anders and his final solution.  He had to break the cycle, and end all hope of compromise.  He had to force the mages to fight or at least die trying.  Had Orsino made it to Elthina once again, she would have attempted to grant another compromise, and it is very likely that Meredith would have gained another inch... and the cycle would have continued.  It is also likely that Meredith would have turned up enough information to justify annulment, since by this point everything had gone to hell in a hand basket.

 

Killing Grand Cleric Elthina ended all hope of compromise and forced the inevitable conflict.  Did innocents die?  Yes.  However, the death of innocents is inevitable in war--it is just a question of which innocents you are talking about--all sides have innocents that die.  The mages of Kirkwall had been living under Templar tyranny for years, and had Anders not taken action they would have been in an even weaker position to resist and the few that survived likely would have died.  It is even possible that had Anders done nothing, that it might have driven even more mages to desperate actions, and an even greater number of people might have died.

 

In the end, I do not think the question is whether or not Anders' actions are right or wrong.  In war every action is a crime, and your enemy is the person who is actively trying to kill you.  For the mages of Kirkwall there was no other alternative at that point aside from all-or-nothing rebellion.  Their only hope was for victory, because without victory over the Templars there was no chance for their survival--especially as the Red Lyrium started to work its paranoia on Meredith.  Things were bad before... the Red Lyrium would have just made it a million times worse.  They had two choices:  Victory or death.  In order to make that choice they had to be forced to fight, and Anders' actions were the catalyst to achieve that...  as his intent was to destroy any hope for compromise--thus preventing a slow death.

 

...and of course, no matter what happened in Kirkwall by this point, the Mage Rebellion would have still happened.  The actions of Anders' did not start the Mage Rebellion outside of Kirkwall, and had he done nothing it is likely that all the mages in Kirkwall would have been dead no different than if Hawke had sided with the Templars.

[Chibi Elemental]

This all assumes the Chantry has authority over the templars which they do not according the the treaty at the time. The Templar do not equal the Chantry but the remnants of an older inquisition. and the church needed to in its early days a military arm to protect itself from the dark chantry in the north, and the inquisition wants to control all mages.

[ComedicSociopathy]

Maybe you guys need to stop arguing about this stuff. Not because I think this isn't an interesting argument or that it shouldn't up to debate, but because they never go anywhere. One side argues for Mages and other argues for Templars and they just bicker back forth with the same opinions that have been said time and time again. It's not as if your going to convince the other side to accept your point of view so why bother.

 

Might as well not take the flamebait thread and just talk about how awesome you think the LI's are going to be in the romance threads.Those guys actually enjoy what their peers have to say.

 

Hope I don't sound judgmentally or on some kind high-horse anything like that, but I keep seeing this same argument over and over again without any resolution or mutual agreement. 

 

Then again, if this debate isn't about reaching a resolution and  more about the sear joy of arguing with each other then I suppose you might as well carry on have your fun.

 

Just accept your probably not going to be turning anyone to your side. 

[Chernaya]

lol, it really is a futile debate isn't it? There can't ever be one thread about Anders that doesn't get derailed by people arguing over his innocence/guilt.

[herkles]

lol, it really is a futile debate isn't it? There can't ever be one thread about Anders that doesn't get derailed by people arguing over his innocence/guilt.

or bringing up the larger mage-templar debate

[Gorguz]

It looks like he isn't in DAI since his voice actor has claimed he isn't in the game. I'm guessing he is either in deep hiding or dead from Justice.

Weird. Cole sounded like Anders to me. I thought they had the same va, in fact I was thinking "really bioware?" when I saw the trailler.

[Pierce Miller]

Maybe you guys need to stop arguing about this stuff. Not because I think this isn't an interesting argument or that it shouldn't up to debate, but because they never go anywhere. One side argues for Mages and other argues for Templars and they just bicker back forth with the same opinions that have been said time and time again. It's not as if your going to convince the other side to accept your point of view so why bother.

Might as well not take the flamebait thread and just talk about how awesome you think the LI's are going to be in the romance threads.Those guys actually enjoy what their peers have to say.

Hope I don't sound judgmentally or on some kind high-horse anything like that, but I keep seeing this same argument over and over again without any resolution or mutual agreement.

Then again, if this debate isn't about reaching a resolution and more about the sear joy of arguing with each other then I suppose you might as well carry on have your fun.

Just accept your probably not going to be turning anyone to your side.

originally this thread was meant to be about anders fate after da2 if you left him alive

[Andreas Amell]

I'm glad that I don't have to worry about this

Ditto.

[LOLandStuff]

Well, if he does show up I don't think he'll be able to hold it together what with all the Fade tears and that bigass Breach in the sky.

[Pierce Miller]

Well, if he does show up I don't think he'll be able to hold it together what with all the Fade tears and that bigass Breach in the sky.

Maybe he'll be in constant Justice mode, I mean the physical world seems to be merging with the Fade and he becomes Justice whenever he enters the fade.

[lordsaren101]

Maybe he'll be in constant Justice mode, I mean the physical world seems to be merging with the Fade and he becomes Justice whenever he enters the fade.

Vengeance now, but yea sounds plausible. Heck as long as he is games to blow up some more chantries, we're good to go!

[Pierce Miller]

Vengeance now, but yea sounds plausible. Heck as long as he is games to blow up some more chantries, we're good to go!

If that did happen then it'd make sense that the same would happen to every abomination (the ones like anders anyway) which would be damn fun to see.

[boissiere]

Seing Anders or Vengeance in DA I depending on our choices could be an interesting way of having the kill with almost no problem for Bioware to make Anders/Vengeance have implication on the new game.

[Pierce Miller]

Seing Anders or Vengeance in DA I depending on our choices could be an interesting way of having the kill with almost no problem for Bioware to make Anders/Vengeance have implication on the new game.

I'd just like to hear his thoughts and opinions on how the mage rebellion is going and if he regrets his actions, Could be a very interesting character moment.

[LOLandStuff]

Maybe he'll be in constant Justice mode, I mean the physical world seems to be merging with the Fade and he becomes Justice whenever he enters the fade.

 

That would be bad.