176 réponses à ce sujet

[Farangbaa]

The Reapers weren't right, the Catalyst is.

*giggle*

[Lars10178]

If synthetics always ended up terminating all life in the galaxy, then how are there any organics left to propagate in subsequent cycles? Reapers have not shown any capability to create new organic life/civilization have they? Also why bother wanting organics to re-build themselves every cycle anyway? Aren't they already preserved in Reaper form from previous cycles? There's a case to be made for Reaper over-population.

 

Just too many flaws in the story to swallow honestly.

I don't understand what your trying to say? Organics come from evolution, the Reapers just curb their progress once they reach a certain point in development. 

[Daemul]

The Reaper cycles had an unintended(though I suspect it may actually be intentional) postive side effect, by harvesting advanced organic life, the Reapers allowed primitive organic life to grow and flourish, instead of being trampled on by advanced beings before they could even start advancing. It's likely that without the Reapers, the races of the current cycle would not exist, as their world's would have been colonised or conquered long ago.

[Display Name Owner]

The only thing I might say they had a point on would be clearing room for future civilisations. Even though it's not a point I think the Catalyst actually made, so... yeah. But still, imagine if the Prothean empire had never been demolished. When the current species rose up they'd have been immediately forced into the Prothean way of things and if they refused they'd have probably been crushed by force. That's ignoring the thousands of galactic civilisations that came before that. If the Leviathans had never been toppled thousands of species would now be nothing but playthings for them. So in a sense there's a certain logic to clearing the way for new civilisations to come up and have their turn. It's not like there's not enough room in the galaxy of course, there are far fewer planets spawning intelligent life than otherwise, so I think that over the millions of years coming various civilisations could coexist. It would just be a lot messier than if there was a cycle streamlining the whole thing.

 

But I guess we'll see, if any of those species create rampaging AI like the Catalyst says they're destined to do maybe it will get proven right. If we accept the lore, the Catalyst has been proven right every single cycle.

[congokong]

The Reaper cycles had an unintended(though I suspect it may actually be intentional) postive side effect, by harvesting advanced organic life, the Reapers allowed primitive organic life to grow and flourish, instead of being trampled on by advanced beings before they could even start advancing. It's likely that without the Reapers, the races of the current cycle would not exist, as their world's would have been colonised or conquered long ago.

This is what I've been saying all along. ME3 pretty much spells it out for you but most people seem oblivious to it or just don't want to consider it.

[ImaginaryMatter]

This is what I've been saying all along. ME3 pretty much spells it out for you but most people seem oblivious to it or just don't want to consider it.

 

Okay. But it's pretty irrelevant given all the other reasons people dislike the ending.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The Leviathans were stupid. Their serfs created synthetics that got out of hand, so they cleaned up the synthetic mess. They got tired of doing that, so not having learned the lesson from their serfs, they created The Intelligence, a synthetic to solve the problem.

 

Leviathan 1 - "I don't know if this is such a good idea. You've seen what's happened to the others."

 

Leviathan 2 - "Nonsense! Trust me, this will work. We'll give it a directive to preserve organic life at all costs. That will save everyone. If things get out of hand, it will have no choice but to clean up the synthetics."

 

1000 years later.

 

Leviathan 1 - "What did I tell you? It rebelled. It created synthetics to kill us before we created synthetics that would kill us. It calls turning us into goop and putting us in a jar 'preserving.'"

 

Leviathan 2 - "It still serves its purpose."

 

Leviathan 1 - "You're indoctrinated. Sh*t! Here they come! They destroyed our orbs!"

 

Starbrat - "We are the Catalyst of your perfection through your destruction."

 

What did reaperized Leviathans look like?

[nukembaby]

The Reaper cycles had an unintended(though I suspect it may actually be intentional) postive side effect, by harvesting advanced organic life, the Reapers allowed primitive organic life to grow and flourish, instead of being trampled on by advanced beings before they could even start advancing. It's likely that without the Reapers, the races of the current cycle would not exist, as their world's would have been colonised or conquered long ago.

Well they kind of got trampled on by the Reapers in the end too. Except far worse. 

[ImaginaryMatter]

The Leviathans were stupid. Their serfs created synthetics that got out of hand, so they cleaned up the synthetic mess. They got tired of doing that, so not having learned the lesson from their serfs, they created The Intelligence, a synthetic to solve the problem.

 

Leviathan 1 - "I don't know if this is such a good idea. You've seen what's happened to the others."

 

Leviathan 2 - "Nonsense! Trust me, this will work. We'll give it a directive to preserve organic life at all costs. That will save everyone. If things get out of hand, it will have no choice but to clean up the synthetics."

 

1000 years later.

 

Leviathan 1 - "What did I tell you? It rebelled. It created synthetics to kill us before we created synthetics that would kill us. It calls turning us into goop and putting us in a jar 'preserving.'"

 

Leviathan 2 - "It still serves its purpose."

 

Leviathan 1 - "You're indoctrinated. Sh*t! Here they come! They destroyed our orbs!"

 

Starbrat - "We are the Catalyst of your perfection through your destruction."

 

What did reaperized Leviathans look like?

 

Leviathan: "You cannot comprehend a galaxy that bends to your will. The Intelligence was envisioned as merely another tool to..."

 

Shepard: "Um, hold on big boy. It seems that you can't either."

 

Leviathan: "What?!"

 

Shepard: "You just told me a story about how you created the thing to solve a problem that you guys couldn't; specifically because your organic thralls didn't bend to your will."

 

Leviathan: "This hurts us."

 

Shepard: "Did the AI thing turn you guys into Harbinger?"

 

Leviathan: "How did you know?"

 

Shepard: "Wild guess. Plus, the the thing seems to have inherited your guys' penchant for not well thought out plans."

[teh DRUMPf!!]

The Leviathans were stupid. Their serfs created synthetics that got out of hand, so they cleaned up the synthetic mess. They got tired of doing that, so not having learned the lesson from their serfs, they created The Intelligence, a synthetic to solve the problem.

 

 

(*snip*)

 

 

I've heard folks say this a lot and find it wildly hypocritical.

 

At the time when Shepard boards the Normandy SR-2 and meets EDI, he/she has had many experiences with AI, and not one of them good. Still Shepard takes a chance on EDI and it turns out for the best (even if players had no say in that matter at any point in time), and Joker later hands it full control of the ship to eliminate the Collector threat aboard it (which rather conveniently spares him from the same fate). I do not see anyone calling Shepard or Joker idiots for displaying around the same degree of trust towards AI despite seeing no previous instance where that ended well.

 

People tasked with solving problems sometimes have to take chances, and often times they are dangerous ones, which is why people who generally fear risk and consider attempting anything dangerous to be stupid are typically not the ones given such tasks.

[Farangbaa]

Leviathan 1 - "What did I tell you? It rebelled. It created synthetics to kill us before we created synthetics that would kill us. It calls turning us into goop and putting us in a jar 'preserving.'"

 

That's one hell of a retarded Leviathan. The synthetic they created is killing them, there's no 'before' here

[congokong]

Despite their power, the Leviathans were pretty stupid due to their blind arrogance. They make the same mistake their servant races make which the catalyst takes note of, and even millions of years later they won't even admit it was a mistake because it technically does what it was supposed to. Apparently the concept of it being a mistake that the catalyst was made in the first place rather than there being a mistake in its function flies over their arrogant heads.

[Display Name Owner]

The Reaper cycles had an unintended(though I suspect it may actually be intentional) postive side effect, by harvesting advanced organic life, the Reapers allowed primitive organic life to grow and flourish, instead of being trampled on by advanced beings before they could even start advancing. It's likely that without the Reapers, the races of the current cycle would not exist, as their world's would have been colonised or conquered long ago.

 

Oh, didn't even see this post before I made one making the same point but less concisely. But yeah, I don't know why they never had the Catalyst at least mention it as a reason, it's actually much more compelling and easy to agree with than the whole Synthetic malarkey. If the idea was to make us go "oh, it makes sense now" when listening to the Catalyst this point really should have come up.

[StarcloudSWG]

Uh. It did.

 

"But you killed the rest."

"We helped them ascend, so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

"I think we'd rather keep our own form."

[emphatically]"No. You can't."[/emphatically]

[Display Name Owner]

Uh. It did.

 

"But you killed the rest."

"We helped them ascend, so they could make way for new life, storing the old life in Reaper form."

"I think we'd rather keep our own form."

[emphatically]"No. You can't."[/emphatically]

 

Well... Isn't this awkward. What can I say, the Catalyst conversation isn't exactly thrilling enough for me to memorise.

 

(Not trying to save face at all)

[StarcloudSWG]

It isn't. The whole thing leaves me feeling contemptuous of whomever it was who came up with the catalyst.

 

I was lucky to find the conversation on Youtube with the subtitles on so that I could read what it was saying.

[Daemul]

Well they kind of got trampled on by the Reapers in the end too. Except far worse. 

They least they had a chance to reach the apex of their glory though .

[Kenshen]

Actually they are right and them existing proves it reguardless of the final outcome.  Just like not all humans are good or evil not all AI is out to kill organics.  The geth showed they are willing to defend themselves but never went full destruction mode.  EDI forms a personal relationship and seems to have some understanding of organic emotion.  We see them in a positive light but like most things that can change and the geth can probably write new programs faster than they can make platforms, talk about an enemy that never dies.  It is a battle of attrition which organics will lose push comes to shove most of the time.  We get lucky in this cycle because Shep is a badass but how many cycles did the Reaper's win?

[Reorte]

There's a big leap from that to "wipe out all organics." The Catalyst's position is sooner or later it'll happen. What has happened doesn't support their position - sooner or later someone will turn up and defeat the Reapers.

[fhs33721]

There's a big leap from that to "wipe out all organics." The Catalyst's position is sooner or later it'll happen. What has happened doesn't support their position - sooner or later someone will turn up and defeat the Reapers.

Well point is, that an AI already has taken over the galaxy completely. The Cataclyst and the Reapers basically run the entire galaxy. If they wanted to, they could have wiped out all organic life if they wanted. They didn't because their goal is to preserve live at all costs.

If some other similarily powerful AI, that didn't have this objective, took over could very well happen that it ultimately just decided to kill every organic in existance.

[Obadiah]

They were servants of an advanced AI that was programmed to do something 'At all costs' the end result was it doing whatever was necessary to do the job it was tasked with. There isn't a right or wrong from it's perspective it's just a machine fulfilling it's purpose.
...

I could be that.

It could also be that as the Catalyst gained more power, more intelligence, it became more detached, sort of the like Dr. Manhattan in Watchmen. What we see happening to Legion and to EDI, their gaining a "personality", may have very well been a part of the Catalyst's development, and then it moved "past" that as well. It started seeing a bigger picture, and then, unlike Mordin, it lost sight of (or severely devalued) the smaller pictures that the bigger picture was made of. I supposed TIMs evolution in thinking was probably along the same lines.

[dugbutts]

Not really trying to defend the reapers.  Just an interesting thought experiment.  Truthfully, my thought is the reapers, the catalyst and the leviathan is a tale of hubris and gross miscalculation.  The leviathan are a text book example of a Greek tragedy.  A race brought low by there own arrogance 

[Aisabel]

So, were the species that became reapers indoctrinated or were they awake like Shepard? Because, while you're learning about the history of the Reapers, the Catalyst mentions that Reapers are made from a variety of species during multiple cycles. When Shepard is given the option of controlling the Reapers, he/she is told that they would keep their memories and their consciousness and whatnot- so, would the same hold true to the Reapers? Or, are they like the geth with a shared mind? Because, I felt like the reapers that we meet throughout the series (and talk to) have slightly different mind sets. 

[Kabooooom]

The reapers (or rather the Catalyst) were right. They had two billion years worth of data to support their claims, partially independently supported by the Prothean's research into the cycles - thus you know that the Catalyst, while obviously deliberately being deceitful with lies of omission, is not 100% full of ****. Thing is - I dont care that they were right, I pick destroy anyways. If synthetic life is fated to overtake and supplant organic life, then so be it, it is the will of nature. The Reapers, while effective, are not an ideal solution to this problem from an organic perspective.