176 réponses à ce sujet

[Kabooooom]

I felt prior to Me3 that the Reapers could have been one of the reasons for the Fermi Paradox of why advanced galactic civilization hasn't spread across the galaxy.
I felt they could be justified from a logical view if they operated on principles based on that it was the nature of intelligent species to destroy all other competing intelligences and that advanced organic intelligent life forms act like a plague virus. exhausting the capability of the environment to sustain lifeforms.

This was exactly my proposal in the "what would your motivations for the Reapers be" thread. It pissed a lot of people off who dont understand basic concepts of ecology and the implications of Fermi's extremely straightforward mathematics. The idea is simple, extrapolated from current understanding, naturally explains the Fermi paradox and naturally arises from the Mass Effect story as a possible motivation (or did, prior to ME3). It would have been perfect. Or, at least, far better than what we got. So you and I are in agreement.

[God]

From a certain perspective, they are the good guys. In some ways, I sympathize with their goal and motivations. 

 

In the end though, their needs are too incompatible with mine, and it really comes down to an us or them scheme.

[Killdren88]

No the Reapers are wrong. They say Synthetics and Organics cannot coexist. The Geth and Quarians disapproved this. They might be right that the peace wouldn't last. But the fact alone that peace, even a temporary peace could be found proves that it is possible and Organics and Synthetics weren't too far off from achieving true peace. The Reaper's logic no longer applies. They are no longer relevant. But they are too arrogant to see that Organics and Synthetics were on the way to coexistence without their "help."

[Khajiin]

What if they where right?

 

Well it doesn't matter as the winner is the one to decide what ends up in the history books.

 

If they where right they should have used Shepard instead of Saren.

[Khajiin]

No the Reapers are wrong. They say Synthetics and Organics cannot coexist. The Geth and Quarians disapproved this. They might be right that the peace wouldn't last. But the fact alone that peace, even a temporary peace could be found proves that it is possible and Organics and Synthetics weren't too far off from achieving true peace. The Reaper's logic no longer applies. They are no longer relevant. But they are too arrogant to see that Organics and Synthetics were on the way to coexistence without their "help."

 

To be honest while I agree with you having a peace contract does not mean much ...

One day a stronger AI might develop and become an even bigger threat.

[berrieh]

When replaying I always wonder if the Reapers could be swayed by the Geth\Quarian argument if they'd made peace way sooner. Since the peace is in ME3 unlikely (it really has specific requirements), short-lived and only during the harvest itself, it proves nothing basically. It always makes me even more frustrated with the Quarians. Since they could've made peace with the Geth at almost any time.

[God]

One scenario of peace (that may only be temporary in the short term) is no indication that the Reapers and the Catalyst are incorrect.

 

I believe there is a fundamental misunderstanding or misinterpretation of the Catalyst's logic by many people proclaiming that the Geth/Quarian issue, as well as EDI, disproves the Reapers.

 

The issue is that conflict will inevitably occur over long periods of time, and eventually, the synthetics, unbound by the restrictions of organic races, would utterly obliterate the organics.

 

The Reapers logic does not preclude the possibility of peace and coexistence between organics and synthetics. It takes into account the tendency for conflict and the inevitable competition over resources that would stem between organics and synthetics, understanding that the unbound nature of synthetics would very quickly overtake organic life.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 When the Catalyst says "(...) my solution will not work anymore," it seems to me like he's basically saying that he was (proven) wrong.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

I've heard folks say this a lot and find it wildly hypocritical.

 

At the time when Shepard boards the Normandy SR-2 and meets EDI, he/she has had many experiences with AI, and not one of them good. Still Shepard takes a chance on EDI and it turns out for the best (even if players had no say in that matter at any point in time), and Joker later hands it full control of the ship to eliminate the Collector threat aboard it (which rather conveniently spares him from the same fate). I do not see anyone calling Shepard or Joker idiots for displaying around the same degree of trust towards AI despite seeing no previous instance where that ended well.

 

People tasked with solving problems sometimes have to take chances, and often times they are dangerous ones, which is why people who generally fear risk and consider attempting anything dangerous to be stupid are typically not the ones given such tasks.

 

Shepard: I thought Asari needed other species to reproduce?

 

Liara: Think, Shepard. Our species would have died out long ago if we couldn't reproduce with our own kind.

 

I don't need to go as far as EDI to call Shepard an idiot.

[Treacherous J Slither]

I don't know if this has been posted already buuut:

 

Why don't the Reapers simply gather several specimens of each current species and preserve them instead of harvesting everything? There is no need for such large scale destruction at all. If snythetics wipe them out they would still be safe. The next galactic civilization would rise up and the "Collectors" would grab their specimens and leave. Simple. Doing things this way would also allow for the possibility of organics and synthetics to not go to war. Seems like the best solution to the problem in my eyes.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

You forget the probability that the Catalyst has fun creating mass destruction and the Reapers throw a raver and take a vid with a GoPro camera (called a Reaper Artifact) after each reaping.

[dorktainian]

So the Reapers come from dark space.  What if they were right.  What if in there 50000 year cycle they are off in another galaxy fighting a race of even more advanced A.I.s.  What if there are even more dangerous monsters in the void or even another galaxy that the Reapers were trying to protect the galaxy from?  What if the Reapers really thought they were protecting the races of the galaxy?  

Just a thought.  But, I kinda like the idea that there are even bigger monsters out there.

theoretically  

 

if you refer to the possibility of a cthulhu type scenario....... then yes it gives them motive for 'saving' everyone, but they misread the message and before squiddy knew it the reapers were killing everything to save them.  Who or whatever squiddy that gave starjar it's operating instructions did a great job...... not.

 

What else lies out there for us to discover?  Just hope it's not ME4 DLC. 

[God]

 When the Catalyst says "(...) my solution will not work anymore," it seems to me like he's basically saying that he was (proven) wrong.

 

Well, the Catalyst wasn't necessarily proven wrong on his perspective of the issue. Just the validation to his own solution. And I wouldn't even say he's proven wrong per se, just that the parameters have changed now with the creation and implementation of the Crucible, and that these changed parameters have now created the possibility of his mandate being ultimately fulfilled (which was his intended purpose after all). He never held the Reapers to be the ultimate answer, he just didn't think that his theoretical solution was possible until Shepard shows up. 

[fhs33721]

Why don't the Reapers simply gather several specimens of each current species and preserve them instead of harvesting everything? There is no need for such large scale destruction at all. If snythetics wipe them out they would still be safe. The next galactic civilization would rise up and the "Collectors" would grab their specimens and leave. Simple. Doing things this way would also allow for the possibility of organics and synthetics to not go to war. Seems like the best solution to the problem in my eyes.

If they left advaced civilisation alone (according to the cataclyst and his calcuations) then AI would ultimately take over the galaxy. If left alone the current species would advance more and more and probably create equally advanced synthetics as the Reapers who then might rebel and kill every organic to rule the universe and the Reapers couldn't do anything about it because they let civilisation advance to a point where they are no longer able to simply steamroll everything with ease.

[Treacherous J Slither]

If they left advaced civilisation alone (according to the cataclyst and his calcuations) then AI would ultimately take over the galaxy. If left alone the current species would advance more and more and probably create equally advanced synthetics as the Reapers who then might rebel and kill every organic to rule the universe and the Reapers couldn't do anything about it because they let civilisation advance to a point where they are no longer able to simply steamroll everything with ease.

 

So what? The Reapers would still have done their job. They already have their preserved organic specimens. Synthetics ruling the galaxy would be irrelevant at that point. There wouldn't be a rise of organics again aka another cycle but like I said before, so what?

Modifié par JSlither, 27 janvier 2015 - 03:36 .

[Alex_Dur4and]

The peace between synthetics and organics won't last...

 

HELL!! Peace between organics alone doesn't even exist! Synthetics are just more thorough in their way of dealing with "problems". Enemies? Friends? Synthetics have dismissed these claims. There is only the "code"! (their programming).

 

Even total peace is a threat to all life in the galaxy. Death by Asari mating!! All other races will become extinct through Asari reproduction! lol

 

Oh... And the reapers should all commit suicide! They are part organic...

[God]

I don't know if this has been posted already buuut:

 

Why don't the Reapers simply gather several specimens of each current species and preserve them instead of harvesting everything? There is no need for such large scale destruction at all. If snythetics wipe them out they would still be safe. The next galactic civilization would rise up and the "Collectors" would grab their specimens and leave. Simple. Doing things this way would also allow for the possibility of organics and synthetics to not go to war. Seems like the best solution to the problem in my eyes.

 

Then your solution is very inefficient. The 'next' civilization will not rise up, as the current form of synthetics will remain perpetually dominant forever, possibly even achieving a state of advancement that transcends the Reapers themselves.

 

You need the Reapers to completely reset the board if you want to maintain diversity in the galaxy in this case.

[God]

So what? The Reapers would still have done their job. They already have their preserved organic specimens. Synthetics ruling the galaxy would be irrelevant at that point. There wouldn't be a rise of organics again aka another cycle but like I said before, so what?

 

That goes against the Leviathan's mandate of assuring biodiversity in the galaxy.

 

Is the existence of the Reapers worse than perpetual synthetic stagnancy?

[Vortex13]

See I can understand the reasoning of why the Reapers reap. Coming in and wiping out the advanced civilizations and allowing the developing ones to grow; I can see the cold, calculating logic behind that.

 

What I can't understand is why a machine designed only for one purpose "Preserving life at all costs" would use the 'preserved' life as a warship, putting the life it is programed solely to protect and secure on the front lines? Why are the Reapers' tactics; in open warfare; to charge in a straight line at the enemy ships, and block all their attacks with it's face? Even if one doesn't view the organic 'slushie' that makes up the Reapers to be alive, the Catalyst does, and yet it puts the very things it is mandated to protect into harm's way.

 

 

Also, if the Reapers are just machines programed to carry out a harvest of advanced organic life, then why give them individual (or gestalt) personalities? Surely all that processing power could be put to better use in predicting combat tactics, or at least optimizing the harvest of interstellar societies. Why let Harbinger sadistically torture and taunt a species targeted for assimilation, or why let Sovereign express unadulterated loathing and contempt of the very things the Reapers are programed to protect, to preserve? The Catalyst compares the Reapers to a cleansing flame, and that would work …. if the Reapers never said anything, never engaged in dialog with the species of the galaxy.

 

As it stands now, it comes across as more of a contradiction. Fire is a force of nature, if a fire burns down my house it doesn't taunt me and say how much it will enjoy burning my family members alive.

[SwobyJ]

So the Reapers come from dark space.  What if they were right.  What if in there 50000 year cycle they are off in another galaxy fighting a race of even more advanced A.I.s.  What if there are even more dangerous monsters in the void or even another galaxy that the Reapers were trying to protect the galaxy from?  What if the Reapers really thought they were protecting the races of the galaxy?  

Just a thought.  But, I kinda like the idea that there are even bigger monsters out there.

 

Well, Bioware might be covering themselves for the possibility of that, with TIM's 'and beyond' part of the final encounter with him.

[SwobyJ]

So, were the species that became reapers indoctrinated or were they awake like Shepard? Because, while you're learning about the history of the Reapers, the Catalyst mentions that Reapers are made from a variety of species during multiple cycles. When Shepard is given the option of controlling the Reapers, he/she is told that they would keep their memories and their consciousness and whatnot- so, would the same hold true to the Reapers? Or, are they like the geth with a shared mind? Because, I felt like the reapers that we meet throughout the series (and talk to) have slightly different mind sets. 

 

I think that if we take the story on its face (I have my own wacky concepts like ME3 itself all taking place in a Reaper, but don't mind that sort of thing here) - Reapers are intelligences that incorporates all data that can be managed to acquire from organic species. This is their DNA and the supposed genetic memory (which is still just theory or imagination to us IRL, by the way), along with computers and anything else. Maybe it could include the copied minds of what becomes husks, as well. So ironically, the more we struggle against the Reapers and die in conflict, especially to the point of bodily destruction, that's less that can be preserved by the Reapers.

 

After that, the Reaper intelligence acts as a gestalt, and perhaps can be seen as a mix of what we see as the Geth Consensus and how we view organic networking/civilization/thinking. A whole 'nation', but as a single entity with a single will.

 

This is what we can understand in ME2 if we stretch ideas enough, but ME3 adds that there is a both 'master' and 'collective intelligence' of the Reapers. The Master part is clear - it directs the Cycle and ultimately controls the Reapers (putting him above the Reapers - something many players take annoyance about as bad writing/design).

However, the Collective Intelligence part can be interesting. It can imply a loop, where the Intelligence first made a Reaper, but that Reaper sends its information to the Intelligence, which makes it as part of itself, and therefore makes the informed decision back to the Reaper, but otherwise is detached and only involves itself with matters of the Cycle and Solution.

As more Reapers are added to the Intelligence, and as the Intelligence is housed in the Citadel, it presents itself as the Catalyst at the end.

 

Anyway, I think there is no shared mind in how we would view individuals sharing thoughts with each other as individuals, or even as geth programs share a consensus. Instead, we have two layers - one of a gestalt mind that considers itself a 'singular nation' based on and the evolution of an organic species, and the other layer is the Catalyst being a Collective Intelligence that also Controls the Reapers.

 

Thus, we have never seen a Reaper (other than maybe maybe the Derelict Reaper, but that would be more of another theory) that is detached from the Catalyst's control. We don't know what a single Reaper may do if it was fully working and able to pursue its own ends. Instead, we see them with absolute belief in the Cycle, reinforced by the Catalyst's understanding, which in itself is informed by the experiences of the Reapers, those Reapers which are formed by harvested civilizations that lost against the Reapers.

 

 

Reapers are the Cycle of Death, essentially. It is arguably a natural order of things, just as much as it is an unnatural order of things, depending on your point of view. So at the end, you decide to escape, improve, or break this cycle (in all cases, 'end' it), fitting your own perspective on this situation.

 

 

 

In ME2, Shepard appears to violently reject the possibility of becoming a Reaper. Harbinger may have had plans to first get Shepard mostly out of the picture (except maybe to examine his body), but later it was more of a desire to harvest Shepard and include him in a Human Reaper. None of this is outright directly stated, but it is pretty heavily implied by the end.

 

In ME3, Control has more to do with how Shepard becomes 'the Catalyst'. Something that may house itself in a Reaper, but not necessarily be a Reaper Intelligence (organic+synthetic gestalt) like the rest. More pure AI, though carrying the memory of the mind of Shepard at foremost. You could say he may undertake a Reaper form, but it isn't the same as the other Reapers.

 

Destroy rejects the Reapers and the most you could say about that is the rather random possibility that Max Destroy happens, Shepard recovers, and the Reapers are rebuilt as more like vehicles so he rides one, lol.

 

Synthesis is akin to the idea of making the whole galaxy like a Reaper, or at least MORE like a Reaper. It rewrites the rules of the galaxy to a point where it both upgrades organics, but also rewrites (reminder: to a synthetic, a rewrite is standard and regular practice) synthetics to have more understanding of organic existence. So Reapers could barely be called Reapers by organics at this point, but just other intelligences - everyone connected to some degree into a kinda-gestalt galaxy.

 

Synthesis might give us insight on how 'people' live in a Reaper, at least. There may be 'people' preserved in the 'world' inside Reapers, but they are arguably new entities that act as preserved programs within the Reaper, and we don't really know how their world works. Reapers see it as Ascension, organics see it as Death, so *shrug*, I dunno. In the end, the preserved civilizations think, and the Reaper speaks. All the while, there is an overriding control signal that the Catalyst seemingly can impose, in order to bring order to the chaos of organics and a harmony to what may be many Reapers disagreeing on what must be done.

A creepy and violent order and harmony, sure, but still somethin.

 

 

But to go back to your question - yes, it would seem that Reapers have different mindsets. They are all arguably 'indoctrinated' by the Catalyst into the Cycle, but they're still different intelligences, and one could even argue that it isn't that they're being indoctrinated, but rather taught (given that there is the back and forth for the 'collective' intelligence aspect).

[SwobyJ]

No the Reapers are wrong. They say Synthetics and Organics cannot coexist. The Geth and Quarians disapproved this. They might be right that the peace wouldn't last. But the fact alone that peace, even a temporary peace could be found proves that it is possible and Organics and Synthetics weren't too far off from achieving true peace. The Reaper's logic no longer applies. They are no longer relevant. But they are too arrogant to see that Organics and Synthetics were on the way to coexistence without their "help."

 

I see it less as the Reapers being 'right' and more the Reapers being 'correct' and that they 'know more'.

 

They can be correct that organics will continue to be exterminated by synthetics without their intervention.

They can know more, to the point of understanding the variables of the galaxy and beyond.

 

They are just not necessarily right, to do what they did. The script tries to explain this idea through stories like Mordin's 'little, big pictures' deal.

They can still be wrong, and there can still be better ways than their correct and knowledgeable solutions.

[GalacticWolf5]

No the Reapers are wrong. They say Synthetics and Organics cannot coexist. The Geth and Quarians disapproved this. They might be right that the peace wouldn't last. But the fact alone that peace, even a temporary peace could be found proves that it is possible and Organics and Synthetics weren't too far off from achieving true peace. The Reaper's logic no longer applies. They are no longer relevant. But they are too arrogant to see that Organics and Synthetics were on the way to coexistence without their "help."

 

There is no such thing as ''true peace''.

[ZergRush]

Organics have the prerrogative to be stupid and create AI that may eventually destroy them. There is already a "solution" in place for organic life's primitiveness and stupidity. We call it Evolution.

 

When a (stupid enough) species creates a synthetic threat that may destroy them (or drive them off their homeworld), it's like writing on their foreheads: "Hey, Universe! I'm stupid! Kill me!" We never needed Reapers for that. Matter of fact, if anything, the Reapers "solution" consists in stopping Evolution. End the means of selection, and all of the sudden you stop evolving. Evolution is our salvation through destruction, or more precisely through the destruction of those who have shown the Universe that they don't belong.

 

 

TL;DR: Destruction is a form of creation. That's why I alwyas chosse destroy.

[Arcian]

Seriously, what is up with all the goddamn Reaper apologism as of late?