176 réponses à ce sujet

[nos_astra]

What if eventually our sun will go supernova and the universe will die a cold death in darkness and silence.

To prevent that we should totally try to find some DEM-like device that is powered by the pain and tears of millions of people as they die a horrible and violent death. It's necessary! We have to ... like right now ... or as soon as possible.

[Asharad Hett]

So the Reapers come from dark space.  What if they were right.  What if in there 50000 year cycle they are off in another galaxy fighting a race of even more advanced A.I.s.  What if there are even more dangerous monsters in the void or even another galaxy that the Reapers were trying to protect the galaxy from?  What if the Reapers really thought they were protecting the races of the galaxy?  

Just a thought.  But, I kinda like the idea that there are even bigger monsters out there.

 

The Reapers were the bigger monsters out there until the Catalyst.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

What if eventually our sun will go supernova and universe will die a cold death in darkness and silence.

To prevent that we should totally try to find some DEM-like device that is powered by the pain and tears of millions of people as they die a horrible and violent death. It's necessary! We have to ... like right now ... or as soon as possible.

 

Actually, this very thing happened in the ME lore (not referring to the Reapers/Catalyst, either). To the "t."

[SwobyJ]

I'm not bitter. No. I'm not bitter. Really I'm not.

 

 

Yeah this was pretty much it tho.

 

... 

[God]

What if eventually our sun will go supernova and the universe will die a cold death in darkness and silence.

To prevent that we should totally try to find some DEM-like device that is powered by the pain and tears of millions of people as they die a horrible and violent death. It's necessary! We have to ... like right now ... or as soon as possible.

 

If we could, we would. If it was the only way to do so. Which I feel it is not. There are alternate ways to achieve dimensional transsentience without doing such.

 

But right now, that's something that's beyond even our own scope of understanding technology. Or understanding of the universe. We have so much time relative to when a theoretical heat death will occur. And the sun will not novae. It is far too small. 

[Riven326]

What if the world really is flat?

 

... It's not.

[Abedsbrother]

It was a relief to find this thread. Catalyst's statements always made (perverted) sense to me.

 

About the ending, a passage from Joseph Campbell:

 

“...All these different mythologies gives us the same essential quest. You leave the world that you're in and go into a depth or into a distance or up to a height. There you come to what was missing in your consciousness in the world you formerly inhabited. The comes the problem of either staying with that, and letting the world drop off, or returning with that boon and trying to hold onto it as you move back into your social world again. That's not an easy thing to do.” Joseph Campbell, The Power of Myth, 158.

 

The logic of Mass Effect 3's choices:

- Control. You have discovered the Catalyst / Reaper's true purpose, and agree with it. Shep merges with the Catalyst to "soften" it, but ShepCatalyst still has the same purpose: "I will protect and sustain. I will act as guardian for the many." Adding Shep to the equation seems to remove the "at any cost" mandate. This ending is poorly established imo. An ending like this requires an understanding bordering on sympathy with the Reapers, and little or nothing in the course of the game establishes anything approaching that (unless you find yourself sympathizing with TIM). The horrors of what the Reapers do are constantly flung in the players' faces.

 

- Synthesis. Peace through symbiosis (that is what the Catalyst offers, though there is no indication that the peace will last). Everything with AIs, from EDI to the Geth to that closeted little program in Mass Effect 1 on the Citadel that was siphoning credits away to get itself out of the the machine (side mission, I forget which one) leads to this particular moment. EDI in particular assumes a role of great importance. Does Shepard accept (referencing the quote above) that Synthesis is the part that is missing from his consciousness, and the consciousness of the galaxy? If he does, is it something he will try to retain as the galaxy looks to rebuild, post-conflict?

 

- Destroy. Even if Shepard has discovered that Synthesis is "what was missing in [his] consciousness in the world that he formerly inhabited," he decides to stay with the world that he originated from, and leave the "boon" behind.

 

Journeys change people. The journey of Mass Effect is supposed to have changed Shepard. He can accept the change, or he can reject it.

 

I think this is what Bioware was trying for in the Mass Effect 3 ending. How well it was implemented is another matter.

[DeathScepter]

*sends teams out to find indoctrination boosters in this thread; for it is clear that the OP is indoctrinated and doesn't know it*

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Control - Soften it? Really? "To provide the many with a powerful leader. To put an end to the bickering of the many. To ensure that the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strength.... I will protect, defend. I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many." Sounds like Comrade Stalin.

 

What happens to those who keep bickering? Dead.

 

Synthesis - symbiosis? No. That's not what it is. It changes all life into a new form of life. A new DNA that doesn't fit the definition of organic or synthetic that it was originally given. Therefore, there is no longer a need to preserve organic life because it no longer exists. How this is done is very poorly explained. Shepard can't retain anything post-conflict because Shepard is dead.

[Abedsbrother]

Control - Soften it? Really? "To provide the many with a powerful leader. To put an end to the bickering of the many. To ensure that the strongest are not feared or reviled for their strength.... I will protect, defend. I will destroy those who threaten the future of the many." Sounds like Comrade Stalin.

 

What happens to those who keep bickering? Dead.

 

Synthesis - symbiosis? No. That's not what it is. It changes all life into a new form of life. A new DNA that doesn't fit the definition of organic or synthetic that it was originally given. Therefore, there is no longer a need to preserve organic life because it no longer exists. How this is done is very poorly explained. Shepard can't retain anything post-conflict because Shepard is dead.

 

Symbiosis - 1. Interaction between two different organisms living in close physical association, typically to the advantage of both.

2. A mutually beneficial relationship between different people or groups.

From Oxford Dictionary Online

 

DNA is inherently organic in nature. Whether the Catalyst used the term "DNA" literally or figuratively is debatable. If literal (and as a super intelligence, why wouldn't it?), it is not that organics or synthetics cease to exist. It is that each has taken something from the other, and shared it universally, leading to a shared intelligence / appreciation. Hence, symbiosis.  It does not, for example, prevent organics from waging war on each other, so for instance the krogan may still start a war with the salarians, or the batarians on the humans. Though there will be general (large-scale) peace between synthetics and organics, there still might be conflicts between races that are synthetic or organic, but not because they are synthetic or organic. 

What follows is inference. Shepard's unique (according to the Catalyst) comprehension of synthetic and organic life-forms, and the fact his presence before the Catalyst requires a "new solution," implies that this DNA has already been created inside Shepard. Like Legion, Shepard must be personally disseminated to complete the change. 

 

 

Yes, Shepard does soften the Catalyst. Here is the full transcript of Catalyst Shep from my playthrough:

“Eternal. Infinite. Immortal. The man I was used these words, but only now do I truly understand them. And only now do I understand the full extent of his sacrifice. Through his death, I was created. Through my birth, his thoughts are freed. They guide me now. Give me reason. Direction. Just as he gave direction to the ones who followed him. The ones who helped him achieve his purpose. Now, my purpose. To the give the many hope for a future. To ensure that all have a voice in their future. The man I was knew that he could only achieve this by becoming something greater. There is power in control. There is wisdom in harnessing the strengths of your enemy. I will rebuild what the many have lost. I will create a future with limitless possibilities. I will protect and sustain. I will act as guardian for the many. And throughout it all, I will never forget. I will remember the ones who sacrificed themselves, so that the many could survive."

 

Is it different for other playthroughs? Several on YouTube have the same text as mine. No mention of slaughter or destruction. Were you playing Renegade? Mine was a mixture of both with slightly more Paragon.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

The one who chose control was the renegade

 

[Riven326]

The one who chose control was the renegade

 

Easily my favorite ending.

[Abedsbrother]

Paragon Control Ending

Cool that they actually recorded different voice-over for the different paths. I've never been able to do a full-Renegade (or even majority Renegade) playthrough.

I totally wouldn't trust renegade Catalyst Shepard.

[GalacticWolf5]

Shepard doesn't soften the Catalyst, he takes it's place. The Catalyst doesn't exist amymore.

The Catalyst itself says that it doesn't want to be replaced by Shepard.

[AlanC9]

I totally wouldn't trust renegade Catalyst Shepard.

Might make an interesting ME4 setting, though.

[God]

I think a Renegade control Shepalyst is the way to go. 

 

Not just narratively, but actually physically think thus.

 

I still destroy though, but I think that control is what I'm ultimately going for.

[dorktainian]

so you pick control and you die.  You lose everything you are and become an AI governed by preset values of preservation..... a reaper.

 

And that's the BEST ENDING?

 

 

Physically and mentally shepard is dead.  You don't come back from disintegration.

 

 

Any ending showing shepard dying is clearly not the best ending.

[God]

Actually, Shepard's neural patterns are likely transcribed onto a computer program. The new Catalyst carries his thoughts and memories, and includes his motivations.

 

So yeah... The Reapers are being bent to Shepard's control. Sort of like what is promised by... control.

[teh DRUMPf!!]

Actually, Shepard's neural patterns are likely transcribed onto a computer program. The new Catalyst carries his thoughts and memories, and includes his motivations.

 

So yeah... The Reapers are being bent to Shepard's control. Sort of like what is promised by... control.

 

Eh, just ignore it; you're not gonna get very far debating "Indoctrination"-nonsense.

 

There are funner ways to kill brain cells. 

[SwobyJ]

I think Indoctrination is just a simplified term for something much more.

 

But that's just me. 

 

"YOU'RE INDOOKTRINATED!" -Shepard

[masster blaster]

Depends on what YOU think is right. If you think the reapers are right then they are right. If you think the Reapers are wrong then you are right. Social view wise the Reapers are seen as monsters that harvest advance organic life depending on the genetic material and the population the organic specie has. Intellectual wise the Reaper are just doing their job in an immoral fashion but it is still considered a inorganic crime against eons of harvests. Debate wise it is whether or not the Reapers are right about their justifications.

 

Personally i don't think they have any arguments.

1. If synthetics rebel against their organic creators all the time no matter what then how is it evident when Reapers express their freedom at any given time to rebel against their creator they do not? A Reaper like Harbinger, and Sovereign would NEVER let an A.I construct lead them, nor take orders from the A.I overlord. The seek different goals than what we see at the end of ME3 from their leader yet not ONCE does the leader go in depth of considering the fact that its Reapers have awareness of free will to disobey their leaders orders.

 

1.1 Going further into this the Protheans were NOT preserved in a Reaper, they were turned into HUSK like creatures, indoctrinated and cleansed of their genetic material. Harbinger stated in ME2 that all the other races did NOT meet the requirements in BECOMING a Reaper. Could mean capital ship class but can be highly unlikely. It is made evident that the Reapers supported the synthetics in a war against the organics in the Prothean cycle despite how the Reaper A.I overlord stands AGAINST the continuation of synthetics/organic war. Furthermore the Protheans turned into the collectors/indoctrinated fathomed the idea of controlling the reapers WHEN the crucible WAS discovered. That seems like a HUGE red flag.

 

2. Indoctrination is a method of SUBDUING anyone/thing to AGREE and abide to the Reapers OWN way of viewing things. Controlling the Reapers seems to plant FALSE hope in the enemies against the Reapers and cause them to sway sides and destroy alliances. T.I.M was a sleeping agent for the Reapers, able to act on his own yet still be a pawn in the end. Him finding a way to control the Reapers does not seem healthy at all, nor would the Reapers let T.I.M control them regardless if he was not indoctrinated.

 

2.1 Moreover the Prothean V.I Shepard meets later on has been hacked into and there is reasonable evidence to believe it was corrupted. The time frame it would have taken to find the Cerberus base, to gather the information, to prepare the alliance fleet and the few hours we are given before the assault on the Cerberus base. Gives T.I.M more time to crack the V.I and alter it for T.I.M was LONG gone before the alliance showed up and how T.I.M KNEW exactly WHERE Shepard would BE at the end of the game. It is clearly evident that the Reapers had been pulling the string on T.I.M all along like they did with Saren, and the other characters Shepard encounters.

 

3. Therefore the Reapers automatically have a solution of SYNTHESIS that would bring balance to the galaxy YET they need SHEPARD to decide for them. The catalyst it seems is SHEPARD since HE/SHE makes the choice rather than the "CATALYST".  The leader of the Reapers explains in depth of how this new option gives them a chance to win and the war to be over DESPITE the REACTIONS/BACKLASH the Reapers would get still. However in the end everyone lives in peace which is incorrect.

 

3.1 Peace doesn't just happen with ALTERING DNA. FORGIVENESS doesn't just happen after the losses the galaxy had taken. Javik is out of character as are many characters. For the Reapers to be RIGHT about synthesis is up surd for there is NO absolute outcome REGARDLESS of ALL choices but evidently in destroy ONLY on the main THREE options is going to REPEAT the cycle DESPITE the reconstruction and promising future shown.

 

4.The Reapers own logic about the destroy ending clearly is basing it on a common assumption that in MANY cases would be said yet despite the other TWO choices they CLEARLY know what would HAPPEN and the OUTCOME. Thus highlights how the Reapers own logic out ways ours despite how their logic has still gotten nowhere for they NEVER gave the galaxy a chance to CORRECT itself by having the organics and synthetics CHOOSE for themselves.

 

4.1 You can say the Reapers did BUT hardly the case when the crucible WAS intended to KILL the Reapers YET somehow the Reaper leader managed to gather much information from the crucible's design specs on THINGS we NEVER HAD BUILT IT FOR. Controlling the Reapers and synthesis are REAPER ideals. As explained why the Reapers would want control there it is to conquer your enemies by having them think they are in control but they are not for now they control you.

 

Overall the Reapers have outlived their expiration date and their ideals are based on assumption as is everything and NOT all correct upon other peoples views unless you agree with them. Tis true organics and synthetics will always fight because of their differences BUT that doesn't mean solutions can't be solved and EVEN if the peace is for a bit there was a victory in that moment.

[dorktainian]

I think Indoctrination is just a simplified term for something much more.

 

But that's just me. 

 

"YOU'RE INDORKTRINATED!" -Shepard

 

To deny Indorktrination is to deny a major part of the narrative.

[God]

But it doesn't acknowledge right to an existence. It fights for it, but there is no 'right' to life.

[Oldren Shepard]

This has been discussed so often just like ME3's ending. I've made my own case for the reapers in the past from a devil's advocate perspective but most people can't consider the premise that the catalyst knows from extensive studies of many organic civilizations that the self-destructive, AI-creating pattern is the same. People make ridiculous rebuttals like "look at the quarians and geth peace" which lasts a whopping week or so before the game ends.

 

Your reason for defending the reapers is a little different from the norm based on you citing bigger "bogey men" out there in the universe but here's my OP from early this year.

 

"Most fans hate the Catalyst (maybe because of its form) but it actually
brought an insight into the reapers' motivations besides the "you cannot
comprehend" arrogance of Sovereign, Harbinger, and the reaper on
Rannoch.

It's actually not that hard to comprehend. The debate is
the ethics of this "ends justify the means" rationale for the harvests.
The logic is that the catalyst has studied countless civilizations and
the dangers of technological progression. Every single civilization
inevitably ended with synthetics being created, surpassing organics, and
eventually destroying them. Leviathan originally intervened to destroy
these synthetics before they could destroy other organic societies but
later created the catalyst as a mediator. The catalyst realized that
Leviathan creating it proved that Leviathan was making the same errors
the lesser species were. Therefore the reapers were made to destroy
Leviathan and any advanced organics/synthetics before synthetics could
dominate all life in the galaxy. While this gives organics free reign to
live it also put them on a timer that was accelerated by the invention
of mass relays (done to make harvesting easier as they'd technologically
progress along a linear path as well as a means for the reapers to
travel).

A theme throughout the series is the dangers of
technology. The idea is that without Leviathan or the reapers eventually
all organics will be enslaved or killed by synthetics. So are the
reapers right?"

 

http://forum.bioware...-reapers-right/

Is not enslave for me, it's to preserve the knowledge of each civilization before it would be lost forever by their own hands.