61 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

Meh I can call any choice right.

 

Well my one true "right" choice would be the redeemer ending with a hardened Alistair married to Anora on the throne.

[BioWareM0d13]

but how many casteless die in order to reclaim the lost territory?

 

 

Those deaths are necessary to preserve Orzammar. Also the darkspawn are a blight, not entitled to any of the territory they've previously conquered from the dwaves. They are monsters. I'd agree if the casteless were dying fighting humans or elves in an expansionist war, but they're dying fighting darkspawn.

 

Also they're presumably volunteers. That wasn't the case with at least some of the dwarves used to make golems.

[Hero]

@cxeres

 

We have the right to decide for ourselves what is "right" and what is "wrong", as long as you don't try to force your opinion on someone else, or hurt others callously and without good reason, that's fine with me

[KainD]

From the past two games; What do you think are the "right" choices? 

 

The right choices are the ones that achieve what I want/need. 

[KainD]

We have the right to decide for ourselves what is "right" and what is "wrong", as long as you don't try to force your opinion on someone else, or hurt others callously and without good reason, that's fine with me

 

You've just wrote a sentence that contradicts itself multiple times. 

[Hero]

@BlindSeer

 

Perhaps freedom is a better word for it; honestly maybe I shouldn't have said anything, I sounded really pretentious.

 

@KainD

 

Sorry about that, It could have been worded better, it didn't really get my point across correctly, I think.

[Cariel]

I find the concept of morality interesting, if not ironic, in the context of video games...

Our PC is given almost limitless power.. And yet often our choices are nothing BUT limited. It is written and therefore predetermined, and usually it boils down to three options:
1. Let's make everyone happy
2. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one
3. F*** everyone.

By my F***ed up existential reasoning the typically immoral options the game provides exist for the sole purpose of the player CHOOSING (reluctant word choice) them in order to be.. well... Bad. That's hardly moral freedom. However the same could be said for the 'good' choices... in which the PC is often rewarded with all around pleasant outcomes which contradict the idea of a 'dark and edgy morally grey fantasy setting'...

When it comes down to it I don't feel that morality truly exists in video games... They often throw around words like 'sacrifice' and 'mercy' but without the consequences these principles represent in the real world. It is never so easy, if not effortless, to be -Good-than it is in video games. So... *shrug*

Am I OT? I don't even know anymore LOL

[Gothfather]

The "right" choices are the ones you made in the keep to create the world state YOU wanted.

[Helios969]

Essentially, we have the answers during the epilogue.  A more obvious one is not trapping a person's soul in a golem construct.  Bhelen (despite be a complete slimeball) improves Dwarven society.  Freeing the werewolves of the curse is kind of a no brainer - could a valid argument even be put forth to side with the werewolves that could make it seem like a morally good decision?

[Pierce Miller]

I preserve the anvil in order to make my army stronger and to eventually help the dwarves reclaim some of their lost thaigs, Destroying it just seems wasteful.

[Pierce Miller]

Essentially, we have the answers during the epilogue.  A more obvious one is not trapping a person's soul in a golem construct.  Bhelen (despite be a complete slimeball) improves Dwarven society.  Freeing the werewolves of the curse is kind of a no brainer - could a valid argument even be put forth to side with the werewolves that could make it seem like a morally good decision?

Uhhhmm.....Preservation of an endangered species

[Dark Helmet]

DA:O, Support Bhelen, destroy the Anvil, Annul the Circle, kill Connor, Refuse Morrigan's ritual, Loghain kills the Archdemon while Alistair is a wandering drunk.

DA2: Kill the Arishok, support the Templars

DA:I Support Templars, Support Gaspard.

[SomeoneStoleMyName]

There is no right or wrong choice in anything.

Real world or Thedas. On a cosmological scale the entire existence of civilizations are there for only a brief insignificant instance in the grand scheme of things. Every instance of choice - in whatever direction - is equally meaningless. When the world destroys itself, or the sun goes supernova, or catastrophe occurs - no one is left to judge or remember anything.

 

Moral nihilism http://en.wikipedia..../Moral_nihilism
 

In the dark cold space where countless decisions once took place. Not a single one is left to remember any of these. No one is left to judge. There is only darkness. In the futility of our insignificant existence, we desperately try to apply meaning to things in daily life. 

If a glass falls from a rooftop towards the ground. Then it matters not if the glass was empty, half-full, or full. The glass and its contents will shatter. The content inside this brief moment of falling, have no value. 

/thread

[blindcathar]

I find the concept of morality interesting, if not ironic, in the context of video games...

Our PC is given almost limitless power.. And yet often our choices are nothing BUT limited. It is written and therefore predetermined, and usually it boils down to three options:
1. Let's make everyone happy
2. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one
3. F*** everyone.

By my F***ed up existential reasoning the typically immoral options the game provides exist for the sole purpose of the player CHOOSING (reluctant word choice) them in order to be.. well... Bad. That's hardly moral freedom. However the same could be said for the 'good' choices... in which the PC is often rewarded with all around pleasant outcomes which contradict the idea of a 'dark and edgy morally grey fantasy setting'...

When it comes down to it I don't feel that morality truly exists in video games... They often throw around words like 'sacrifice' and 'mercy' but without the consequences these principles represent in the real world. It is never so easy, if not effortless, to be -Good-than it is in video games. So... *shrug*

Am I OT? I don't even know anymore LOL

 

I definitely agree that morality doesn't exist in the same way in video games, insofar as there are actual physical consequences to the lives of actual people, but, video games, and in particular Bioware RPGs, are moral simulations. Therefore just as playing a game where your character is in danger can actually make you feel, briefly, in danger, or watching a movie can make you incredibly emotional, the moral choices in a video game don't have consequences for the characters, but do have the potential for emotional impacts on you, the player. That's worthwhile, and definitely moral in a sense.

[blindcathar]

There is no right or wrong choice in anything.

Real world or Thedas. On a cosmological scale the entire existence of civilizations are there for only a brief insignificant instance in the grand scheme of things. Every instance of choice - in whatever direction - is equally meaningless. When the world destroys itself, or the sun goes supernova, or catastrophe occurs - no one is left to judge or remember anything.

 

Moral nihilism http://en.wikipedia..../Moral_nihilism
 

In the dark cold space where countless decisions once took place. Not a single one is left to remember any of these. No one is left to judge. There is only darkness. In the futility of our insignificant existence, we desperately try to apply meaning to things in daily life. 

If a glass falls from a rooftop towards the ground. Then it matters not if the glass was empty, half-full, or full. The glass and its contents will shatter. The content inside this brief moment of falling, have no value. 

/thread

 

This isn't really a valid argument. Moral nihilism is just saying "this whole topic doesn't exist"; it's not a valid discussion of morality. Moral philosophy assumes that you accept the concept that morality can exist, even if - and especially because - it's invented by a society. We can still talk about what choices in the DA games reflect generally-agreed upon moral ideas in our society even if they don't apply outside of our tiny, spinning rock in space. 

Also, most people spouting moral nihilism most likely don't actually live according to it - and if they do they're likely in prison and should be. The problem is that the lack of an objective morality doesn't necessitate the lack of a subjective one, averaged out among the members of society. 

 

For example, "money" doesn't exist. We made up the concept of money. Those pieces of paper are in themselves meaningless. If we as a society just decided together that we didn't want money, it wouldn't exist anymore. But, the key is that we do accept that - despite an objective meaning, we've given money a subjective meaning. It has real, often deadly or life-changing effects. So if economists are arguing about money and someone walks in and says "Money isn't real" and walks away, they've done nothing for the discussion. It doesn't matter that it's not "real" - it changes the world anyway. 

[Cariel]

I definitely agree that morality doesn't exist in the same way in video games, insofar as there are actual physical consequences to the lives of actual people, but, video games, and in particular Bioware RPGs, are moral simulations. Therefore just as playing a game where your character is in danger can actually make you feel, briefly, in danger, or watching a movie can make you incredibly emotional, the moral choices in a video game don't have consequences for the characters, but do have the potential for emotional impacts on you, the player. That's worthwhile, and definitely moral in a sense.

You make a very good point. Even if the emotions the game provokes are manipulations, they are no less valid. Perhaps I am simply jaded as I often don't feel the emotions the game 'wants' me to, I'm usually to focused on the bigger picture or the larger context in which the more emotionally charged moments exist, usually accompanied with a very large eye-roll (Leandra's death anyone?).

As for moral nihilism, why don't we all just go kill ourselves now and be done with it?
Although I do appreciate the notion that in a debate such as this, (morality being the one question mankind truly struggles with...) might as well Go Big or Go Home. Hell, it's what I do.

This all being said, I really do hope I can go into DA:I with an open mind. Sometimes you just have to tell yourself to shut up

[Jackums]

OK, to people making assumptions about moral nihilism; rationally observing that there is no objective morality (as you see it) doesn't automatically make you an impractical, braindead mollusc. You can still be aware of the fact that killing someone is going to end up with you in jail or worse, and thus not do it. Holding moral nihilism as a belief does not negate your basic intelligence and common sense, or will to live, survival instinct, etc. It also does not deny empathy or the ability to still care about things, others, and/or hold principles. You simply acknowledge that these are all subjective things with no inherent value. 

 

Also, moral nihilism is not existential nihilism, so suggesting we just kill ourselves has no relevance to moral nihilism. Heck, you can even be an existential nihilist and still continue living and enjoying life. You deny intrinsic value and meaning to existence, but those things aren't needed to be happy, it's just difficult for most people to come to terms with the idea of being happy without some sense of meaning and value to their life.

 

Anyway, just wanted to clarify that. Let's not derail the thread.

[Cariel]

It was intended to be a joke. I'll admit it was in poor taste.

I for one, although I can espouse certain existential principles in regards to agency, both moral and existential nihilism has always been very hard for me to swallow. Even if I agree with most of it. The idealist in me wants to believe that morality is not subjective. One does not need to experience or even witness suffering to know what it is, and I want empathy to be more than a product of survival instinct. If there is no meaning or value to existence and I'm inclined to believe there isn't, only one option remains to us. Create meaning, create value.

If you say you can deny this and still manage to be happy, more power to you. Can you bottle some for me?

[Get_Off_My_Lawn]

For me in origins the "right choice" was whatever was going to give my character the best chance at stopping the blight, this meant preserving the anvil (despite the process being questionable) simply because Golems would improve the army greatly. Another example is my human noble who sided with the werewolves. She viewed the werewolves as more useful to ending the blight than the elves. Yes they ran into the camp and killed/turned everyone but my warden was not there to make friends she was there to end the blight

[Former_Fiend]

Personally I'm less interested in making the moral choice than I am in making the choice that has the most interesting potential, plot wise. 

[KaiserShep]

The choice that makes the most sovereigns.