If you play the Legacy dlc after her death than there is a nice cutscene. You need to play it to find out what I am talking about. But her death bothered me a lot because I didn't really have a choice. I kept thinking I did something wrong. So seeing that I had no choice to watch her die was frustrating and sad.
That is a nice scene. It's too bad it's just all in Varric's head. Heh.
http://youtu.be/KNcB0yuN4nQ?t=57s
You know, thinking about it.. one of the reasons why this didn't effect me so much was it was almost random. I mean, the Templars have several antagonists that you meet almost at the start of the game. Like the Sister, or certain Templars, and of course, Meredith herself. She's always looming from the start of the game.
Not so with mages. Most of the "evil" mages are one time things; they crazy, you stab them in the face. Even Orsino, you barely hear of until Act 3. In fact, you are exposed to the Qunari much more than the "evil" of mages. From the start of the game it's the "plight" of mages you see.
A good old fashioned mage villain, a counterpart to Meredith, would've changed the game.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
A good old fashioned mage villain, a counterpart to Meredith, would've changed the game.
His name is Anders.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
Yeah, I know the scene. I'm just saying. Before it starts, Varric tells Cassandra "I'm taking a few liberties.. you'll have to forgive me."
His name is Anders.
You can't compare Anders to Meredith. Not at all. Even the look is different. Meredith screams villain and you know you are gonna have to fight her at some point. Anders, if it's your first play-though is a shock. Anders is misguided not evil. I suppose that can be said of Meredith too, until she shopped her way to nutjob-land.
Guest_StreetMagic_*
You can't compare Anders to Meredith. Not at all. Even the look is different. Meredith screams villain and you know you are gonna have to fight her at some point. Anders, if it's your first play-though is a shock. Anders is misguided not evil. I suppose that can be said of Meredith too, until she shopped her way to nutjob-land.
She's misguided too, if you ask me. Both of them had some great lines that painted them in a grey area at times.
But they are villains nonetheless (imo). Villains in the way Loghain was a villain. Very human ones. At least until, like you said, the idol took control of her.
the real reason is: BAD WRITTING!
Hawke's mother had NEGATIVE common sense (enough to make a chaotic place like Bobobo to look scientifically lawfull if you ask me), heck i've seen clueless roleplayers being more aware of their surroundings that Hawke's mother (And one of them tried to use diablere on a MAGMA GARGOYLE without fortitude skill, the other was a lvl 1 bard with performance based in drama who pursuited a dragon). She died because she was too dumb to live and because whoever was leading the script of DA2 was aiming to put plotholes everywhere instead of trying to make sense.
Hawke's mother was too dumb to live to tell the truth, if she belonged to World of Darkness instead of dragon age she would be a Vampire going to the tibet for refuge (Tibet's landmass causes unsoakable damage for those who don't have fortitude discipline). Kirkwall was the worst place in all Thedas to hide an apostate. Also she went walking in the streets at midnight when Hawke was parachutted by infinite hordes of
plant eating zombiesbandits and a femicide on the lose. She was ASKING FOR IT.
I can definitely agree to what I've highlighted in red bold. In the short version of the event Leandra decided that she no longer wanted to live the life of luxury in Hightown, and so she takes of with an escaped circle mage who is now an apostate. She heads to lothering where she and her apostate boyfriend engage in marriage, and starts a family of their own. (I play as a mage so it may differ in other peoples stories) She produces 2 mage children: Garrett/Marian Hawke and Bethany Hawke from her now apostate husband. Fortunately her third child, Carver Hawke, did not possess magic abilities so at least he is safe from the Templars. Of all places to go to escape the horde of Darkspawn... She chooses to go to Kirkwall! A Templar dominated city! She truly didn't think of the welfare of her children when she made that choice.
I could never play as a rogue or a warrior in DA2 because I would become enrage with Leandra after finding out that the Templar's took Bethany to that dreadful place in the gallows; a place where Templar's abuses and sexually assaults their captive mages.. even threatening to make them tranquil if they report the abuse. I would rather have Carver betray me by becoming a Templar rather than to have my sister be sent to that hell hole circle.
I could never play as a rogue or a warrior in DA2 because I would become enrage with Leandra after finding out that the Templar's took Bethany to that dreadful place in the gallows; a place where Templar's abuses and sexually assaults their captive mages.. even threatening to make them tranquil if they report the abuse. I would rather have Carver betray me by becoming a Templar rather than to have my sister be sent to that hell hole circle.
Even if your sister was happier there?
Even if your sister was happier there?
Happier is a strong word to use. Bethany was "not" happy being in the circle, not according to her letter : http://dragonage.wik..._Family_Letters
"My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with." she goes on by saying "Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!"
Bethany has no idea how much danger she is in while Ser Alrik is still alive. It isn't just harassment but something far more sinister, and crippling. Let's not forget Ser Karras... the Templar who threatens the rite of tranquility if you tell anyone that hes been in your chambers.
I can definitely agree to what I've highlighted in red bold. In the short version of the event Leandra decided that she no longer wanted to live the life of luxury in Hightown, and so she takes of with an escaped circle mage who is now an apostate. She heads to lothering where she and her apostate boyfriend engage in marriage, and starts a family of their own. (I play as a mage so it may differ in other peoples stories) She produces 2 mage children: Garrett/Marian Hawke and Bethany Hawke from her now apostate husband. Fortunately her third child, Carver Hawke, did not possess magic abilities so at least he is safe from the Templars. Of all places to go to escape the horde of Darkspawn... She chooses to go to Kirkwall! A Templar dominated city! She truly didn't think of the welfare of her children when she made that choice.
I could never play as a rogue or a warrior in DA2 because I would become enrage with Leandra after finding out that the Templar's took Bethany to that dreadful place in the gallows; a place where Templar's abuses and sexually assaults their captive mages.. even threatening to make them tranquil if they report the abuse. I would rather have Carver betray me by becoming a Templar rather than to have my sister be sent to that hell hole circle.
I don't think that's fair at all.
For starters, there's no guarantee at all that any other city would be available to more Ferelden refugees. Plus, Leandra was under the impression that she had an estate and money that could help them build a new life. While that certainly did not pan out because of Gamlen, Gamlen himself also ensures that they have more coming into Kirkwall than they would have anyplace else, as they automatically have a roof over their heads free of charge, whereas anyplace else would have them living on the streets doing who knows what. And really, this is during a Blight. Risking Kirkwall with the greater chance of making a foothold sure beats wandering to an unknown city hoping that they don't end up living in a dark alleyway or worse, being kicked out of the Free Marches and back to Ferelden.
It's pretty strange that one would be mad at Leandra for Bethany going to the Circle. What's Leandra going to do? Refuse? The Templars would just arrest her and take Bethany anyway, or possibly put down another apostate because her resistance changed their mood, and they could even go so far as to just ransack Gamlen's hovel, kick them all out and leave them with nothing. Hawke could kill Cullen, but that would still leave them in a far worse state.
Anyway, as far as we can tell Kerras and Alrik don't do anything to Bethany, and while Kerras is a dick and Alrik is a proper creep, they can both be given the murder they ask for, getting at least two pests out of the way. And really, what's it matter in the end? The Circle system as we know it is kaput, and Bethany is free, so to speak.
I don't think that's fair at all.
For starters, there's no guarantee at all that any other city would be available to more Ferelden refugees. Plus, Leandra was under the impression that she had an estate and money that could help them build a new life. While that certainly did not pan out because of Gamlen, Gamlen himself also ensures that they have more coming into Kirkwall than they would have anyplace else, as they automatically have a roof over their heads free of charge, whereas anyplace else would have them living on the streets doing who knows what. And really, this is during a Blight. Risking Kirkwall with the greater chance of making a foothold sure beats wandering to an unknown city hoping that they don't end up living in a dark alleyway or worse, being kicked out of the Free Marches and back to Ferelden.
It's pretty strange that one would be mad at Leandra for Bethany going to the Circle. What's Leandra going to do? Refuse? The Templars would just arrest her and take Bethany anyway, or possibly put down another apostate because her resistance changed their mood, and they could even go so far as to just ransack Gamlen's hovel, kick them all out and leave them with nothing. Hawke could kill Cullen, but that would still leave them in a far worse state.
Anyway, as far as we can tell Kerras and Alrik don't do anything to Bethany, and while Kerras is a dick and Alrik is a proper creep, they can both be given the murder they ask for, getting at least two pests out of the way. And really, what's it matter in the end? The Circle system as we know it is kaput, and Bethany is free, so to speak.
That was kind of my thought when I read the title as well.
The entire setup was, IMO, poorly handled. Quentin should have been a significantly bigger part of the story leading up to that point, creating situations where you are second guessing yourself and having to make decisions where you don't know which is right (neither is), progressively getting closer and ruining his plans, then he goes quiet only for poor mummy to get killed, somewhat as revenge for Hawke messing things up.
I don't think that's fair at all.
For starters, there's no guarantee at all that any other city would be available to more Ferelden refugees. Plus, Leandra was under the impression that she had an estate and money that could help them build a new life. While that certainly did not pan out because of Gamlen, Gamlen himself also ensures that they have more coming into Kirkwall than they would have anyplace else, as they automatically have a roof over their heads free of charge, whereas anyplace else would have them living on the streets doing who knows what. And really, this is during a Blight. Risking Kirkwall with the greater chance of making a foothold sure beats wandering to an unknown city hoping that they don't end up living in a dark alleyway or worse, being kicked out of the Free Marches and back to Ferelden.
It's pretty strange that one would be mad at Leandra for Bethany going to the Circle. What's Leandra going to do? Refuse? The Templars would just arrest her and take Bethany anyway, or possibly put down another apostate because her resistance changed their mood, and they could even go so far as to just ransack Gamlen's hovel, kick them all out and leave them with nothing. Hawke could kill Cullen, but that would still leave them in a far worse state.
Anyway, as far as we can tell Kerras and Alrik don't do anything to Bethany, and while Kerras is a dick and Alrik is a proper creep, they can both be given the murder they ask for, getting at least two pests out of the way. And really, what's it matter in the end? The Circle system as we know it is kaput, and Bethany is free, so to speak.
It doesn't matter if Leandra was under the impression that their was an estate and money that could help her and her family to build up a new life, it would of never had happen with 2 (again I play as a mage so it may differ on your story) mage adult children at her side. She went all this trouble to get away from the Chantry and Templar's because of her apostate boyfriend/husband.. now she wants to return back risking the freedom of her children? Doesn't that sound a tad bit selfish? Especially after what she had done to herself and her family? She thinks that everything will be back to normal after so many years have passed?
I'm mad because it was Leandra fault for purposely risking Bethany's freedom by arriving in Kirkwall (Templar dominated city) thinking that shes going to return back to her formal lifestyle of living in luxury in Hightown. She obviously forgot the situation of her family prior to shaming them by running off with some apostate. If the Amell family was in near bankruptcy (Due to one of the members being accused of a serious crime of smuggling) I highly doubt that their was not a whole lot of money left that Leandra can mooch off of with her family. Gamlen did right by taking his share of the money that was left and spending it on whatever pleasure he wanted.
Happier is a strong word to use. Bethany was "not" happy being in the circle, not according to her letter : http://dragonage.wik..._Family_Letters
"My time in the Circle has been bearable, even after the templars made a point of putting me through the Harrowing as soon as I arrived. They thought I was at risk of possession or running away like Father. Glad it's over with." she goes on by saying "Life's not perfect here, mind you. The templars are mostly polite, and I know they're just doing their jobs, but some hold extreme views. There's one creep named Ser Alrik who likes harassing mages, but I'll steer clear of him!"
None of those things you've boldfaced indicate that she is not happy. Life does not have to be perfect to be happy overall.
And you have omitted information that clearly shows otherwise (that she enjoys teaching/mentoring young apprentices). We also know that Bethany wishes to be normal and feels guilty about being the reason why her family is always on the run. Well, with her in the Circle, the family no longer has to run, and she is around other mages thus becoming "normal."
If you want to see unhappy, read her letter as a Grey Warden.
Bethany has no idea how much danger she is in while Ser Alrik is still alive. It isn't just harassment but something far more sinister, and crippling. Let's not forget Ser Karras... the Templar who threatens the rite of tranquility if you tell anyone that hes been in your chambers.
As in, slim-to-none? Nobody is going to touch a mage whose family is prominent/influential nobility in the city. It is the same reason why Emile DuLauncet -- when returned to the Circle -- is spared harsh punishment for escaping and rumors of being a blood-mage.
Creeps only prey on the weak/defenseless.
None of those things you've boldfaced indicate that she is not happy. Life does not have to be perfect to be happy overall.
And you have omitted information that clearly shows otherwise (that she enjoys teaching/mentoring young apprentices). We also know that Bethany wishes to be normal and feels guilty about being the reason why her family is always on the run. Well, with her in the Circle, the family no longer has to run, and she is around other mages thus becoming "normal."
If you want to see unhappy, read her letter as a Grey Warden.
As in, slim-to-none? Nobody is going to touch a mage whose family is prominent/influential nobility in the city. It is the same reason why Emile DuLauncet -- when returned to the Circle -- is spared harsh punishment for escaping and rumors of being a blood-mage.
Creeps only prey on the weak/defenseless.
Yes it does indicate that she is not happy. Just because you're able to accept and adapt to your new lifestyle in such a short amount of time doesn't automatically mean that shes "happier" living the Circle life rather than to life free with her family on the run. Shes a novice. She just arrived to the circle, and have little to no experience at what truly goes on, especially in Kirkwall as the Grand Cleric doesn't seem to care what goes on in the Circle. Yes. She found something that can simulate her brain by working with children.. mentoring them and teaching them new spells. That's not an indication of happiness, but rather found something that can keep her busy and occupied so that she doesn't go crazy in the circle prison.
Emile DuLauncet faith was determine solely on the decision of the champion. It was the champion that saved his behind from getting executed. The fact that he started the rumor of being a blood mage was a death sentence to him. Anders even confirmed this in the hanged man.
Don't kid your self. Any mage who is part of the circle is open for harassment, and sexual abuse. If they try to fight they will be punished. Hell they give mages 20 lashes for even speaking with visitors in the gallows, which is why they're reluctant to speak with you fearing that they will be beaten.
Yes it does indicate that she is not happy. Just because you're able to accept and adapt to your new lifestyle in such a short amount of time doesn't automatically mean that shes "happier" living the Circle life rather than to life free with her family on the run. Shes a novice. She just arrived to the circle, and have little to no experience at what truly goes on, especially in Kirkwall as the Grand Cleric doesn't seem to care what goes on in the Circle. Yes. She found something that can simulate her brain by working with children.. mentoring them and teaching them new spells. That's not an indication of happiness, but rather found something that can keep her busy and occupied so that she doesn't go crazy in the circle prison.
Emile DuLauncet faith was determine solely on the decision of the champion. It was the champion that saved his behind from getting executed. The fact that he started the rumor of being a blood mage was a death sentence to him. Anders even confirmed this in the hanged man.
Don't kid your self. Any mage who is part of the circle is open for harassment, and sexual abuse. If they try to fight they will be punished. Hell they give mages 20 lashes for even speaking with visitors in the gallows, which is why they're reluctant to speak with you fearing that they will be beaten.
She says "not perfect" rather than "unhappy." You can dissect that, I suppose, but I think it's equally consistent with either interpretation.
As for Bethany being safer, I will note that a Templar could, theoretically, abuse her as easily as he could abuse any other mage. Of course, should Hawke find out from her (or Gamlen, whose dialogue makes clear he is allowed to see her) then there will be hell to pay. By the time this is even relevant (ie right after Hawke gets out of the Deep Roads with a whole lot of money waiting for him), Hawke probably has the status to weasel out of the punishment for disappearing an abusive Templar. (Assuming he's called to account for it, which he was not when killing Alrik or meeting Karl.) And immediately following the end of Act II he probably wouldn't need to be that cautious, considering the status he has starting when the Arishok leaves/dies. They can probably punish Bethany for bringing this on them, of course, but that will at best not help them. This means that a rational abusive Templar, or even the higher functioning irrational ones, will steer clear. You're right in that that's not perfect safety (since the Knight Commander is both abusive and irrational) but HYR is right that it helps her.
@Lord Raijin (Quote does not work on the computer I am using).
"Life isn't perfect here" is not conclusive of anything. It could mean life is mostly bad, but it could also mean life is mostly good, but the fact you will not accept a statement as clear-cut as "I enjoy ___" (which, unlike the stuff you've boldfaced, is *not* disputable) as meaningful just goes to show that you are not willing to accept any information that disagrees with your interpretation.
So, I will bow out of this one sooner rather than later. Good day.
This is where DA2 was superior to DAO for me -- it was a long version of one of DAO's origin stories. I just wish there was even more. Maybe I'm asking for too much?
You are asking for a taste in your face of my family's mace
She says "not perfect" rather than "unhappy." You can dissect that, I suppose, but I think it's equally consistent with either interpretation.
As for Bethany being safer, I will note that a Templar could, theoretically, abuse her as easily as he could abuse any other mage. Of course, should Hawke find out from her (or Gamlen, whose dialogue makes clear he is allowed to see her) then there will be hell to pay. By the time this is even relevant (ie right after Hawke gets out of the Deep Roads with a whole lot of money waiting for him), Hawke probably has the status to weasel out of the punishment for disappearing an abusive Templar. (Assuming he's called to account for it, which he was not when killing Alrik or meeting Karl.) And immediately following the end of Act II he probably wouldn't need to be that cautious, considering the status he has starting when the Arishok leaves/dies. They can probably punish Bethany for bringing this on them, of course, but that will at best not help them. This means that a rational abusive Templar, or even the higher functioning irrational ones, will steer clear. You're right in that that's not perfect safety (since the Knight Commander is both abusive and irrational) but HYR is right that it helps her.
What in the world is Garret/Marian Hawke going to do when he/she finds out that her/his sister has been abused (Physical/Sexual) in the circle? Hell to pay? Exactly how? What are they going to do that will give them "hell"? It isn't wise for the honey bee (no matter how much honey is in their hive) to be flying around the hornets nest, especially trying to disturb it because the consequences of that course of action is inadvisable.
Like I said before It was a ****** poor bad idea to go to Kirkwall when you have 2 mage adult children at your side. Leandra should of realize this yet she wasn't thinking about her sons and daughters but her own selfish ambition.
@Lord Raijin (Quote does not work on the computer I am using).
"Life isn't perfect here" is not conclusive of anything. It could mean life is mostly bad, but it could also mean life is mostly good, but the fact you will not accept a statement as clear-cut as "I enjoy ___" (which, unlike the stuff you've boldfaced, is *not* disputable) as meaningful just goes to show that you are not willing to accept any information that disagrees with your interpretation.
So, I will bow out of this one sooner rather than later. Good day.
It doesn't mean that shes "happier" being locked up in the circle. You need to realize what is truly going on in the Kirkwalls's Circle, and listen to Varrics narration carefully when he mentions how Meredith kept a tight grip over the mages and when they resist she kept even a tighter tighter grip. Things were going down hill rapidly with Meredith taking control of the entire city with the Viscount dead. Do you honestly believe that Bethany is getting celebrity like treatment just because shes the brother/sister of the Champion? Shes a mage who do not have any noble titles whatsoever. She's just a regular mage.
And you're right 
I'm not willing to accept just "any" information that disagrees with my interpretation. Give me something worthy that I can accept.
What in the world is Garret/Marian Hawke going to do when he/she finds out that her/his sister has been abused (Physical/Sexual) in the circle? Hell to pay? Exactly how? What are they going to do that will give them "hell"? It isn't wise for the honey bee (no matter how much honey is in their hive) to be flying around the hornets nest, especially trying to disturb it because the consequences of that course of action is inadvisable.
To clarify: I don't see Hawke doing anything to disturb the nest as a whole over this. When one hornet stings you, and you kill that hornet, the nest barely notices. Even if Hawke were caught (and there's a precedent for killing Templars without being caught, and one which doesn't just apply to Hawke's party) I think Hawke could get away with killing a Templar who raped or Tranquilized his sister post Act II. The lives of individual Templars just don't seem to mean all that much, if the fact that you can kill Templars left and right and not have a death squad bearing down on you is anything to go by.
Though again, this wouldn't undo the offense committed against Bethany. There is a logical argument for going to Kirkwall, given the power that Gamlen would have had were he more competent and apparently has for all his sister knew at the time, but there's also a decent one that it's a good place to avoid.
I think my confusion with this part of the story is the fact she was not made Tranquil, as she was a hedge mage that lived outside of the circle. Karl was made Tranquil, for a simlar reason by Arlik, maybe Cullen had something too do with this, as a favor to Hawke for saving his life.
However, I find it unlikely Bioware would have wanted to write something like for the PC, as this was already done with Anders, as it would tip the scales a little bit in the favor of the Mages in the finale part of Act 3. So they decide to not have something happen to your sister, and writing her being all happy about her life in the circle to counteract the fact that nothing bad happened to her and hope we forget Karl.
Since I believe having your own sister be turned tranquil would, in fact, drive home the point that even a mage Hawke would not be safe in the city, unless you find away to stop this from happening to your PC.
I do not believe Karl at any point lived outside the Circle. I believe he was Tranquil'd for no other reason because of the letters he sent Anders (which I'm pretty sure is legally insufficient) in order to hurt Anders and to destroy Karl's emotional connection to him.
As for Bethany, you probably have the in-game rationale down. Out of game, I believe there's something to the reason you give, and there's the additional factor that if Bethany became Tranquil, she could no longer be a party member during the few points during the game in which she's still an option. (Or she could, but she'd need to be a contrivedly quick study as a warrior or rogue.)
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