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Connecting the Gods. (Spoilers and Speculation!)


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#1
Warden Majere

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This is my attempt to connect some glaring lore points, and some mysterious characters, using the various in-game religions. I have yet to read the newest novel as well as the lore book, so bare with me.

 

         In the beginning there were two powerful forces in the world, The Creators, and the Forgotten Ones (AKA the Old Gods. We don't know how many Forgotten Ones there really are, only that three are mentioned in the tales). These two opposing sides were constantly at war.

         

        The Creators sought to create the perfect race, one that reflected their own perfection, and thus the Elves came into existence. Fen'Harel, seeking a stronger foothold in the world, went to the Old Gods and proposed that they create their own race. Reflecting the traits that they represented. Each of the Old Gods placed a trait within the newly created humans, finishing with the deviousness of Fen'Harel. 

        As both races grew, the war between the Gods continued with no end in sight. The Lord of Tricksters patiently patiently waited for his time to strike. Finally, an empire of men was formed in the land of Tevinter. Tension grew between Elves and Men, until war finally erupted. The Dread Wolf was ready. 

  

        As the Tevinters marched upon Arlathan, Fen'Harel went to the leader of each group of immortals, promising an end to wars of man and God. The catch, the Creators must leave the Earth, and return to their own plane of existence, and the Old Gods must abandon the Black City. Each respective group was locked away, the Creators in Heaven, and the Old Gods in the bodies of slumbering dragons locked far beneath the earth. 

 

       From here the Old Gods speak to their Magister servants, convincing them to invade the Black City in the hopes of releasing them. Just as the Old Gods planned, the mages were corrupted by the Gods' power, and cast back into the world as the first Darkspawn. Forever connected to the Gods through the Taint, they would be the release they sought.

      

       When Dumat rose as an Archdemon, the Old Gods devised a new plan. Urthemiel created a child with a fragment of his divinity, called Urzara, and sent her to the world with a single purpose, save the Dumat. With the knowledge gifted by her father, Urzara created the Grey Wardens to kill Dumat, and the Dark Ritual to save his soul. Urzara spawned daughters so that she may steal their bodies to prolong her life, and save each Old God as they became corrupted.

 

       Meanwhile, Fen"Harel planned his next move. He found a faithful, beautiful, young girl in Fereldan named Andraste. He presented himself to her as the "Maker", telling her that he was saddened  by the sins of the Imperium. She raised an army an conquered the Imperium, thus starting the worship of the Maker (AKA the Lord of Tricksters), and toppled the worship of the Old Gods.

 

       Eventually Urzara started her own cult, and a bloody encountervleft her body slain, along with her cultists. Yet, she managed to survive. One faithful man carried an amulet containing a fragment of her soul, to safety, where she was eventually extracted. (Sound familiar) Eventually she gave birth to a new daughter named Flemeth. Rather than a demon taking Flemeth's body, it was Urzara. This would explain why she is not considered an abomination in the game's lore.

 

       The pattern continued through the ages, as the Old Gods were reborn one by one in mortal bodies, and Fen'Harel crushed the remains of the worship of his brothers, and spread his influence across the world. The stone and the Qun are not mentioned here, as they have no official deities to include.

 

       I apologize for the wall of text, and for not making the words flow together in a pleasing manner. I did this in an attempt to avoid a larger wall of text. I actually wrote a 40 page short story about this topic a couple years ago. I am in no way stating that this is even close to in-game canon, but it is tasty food for the thought. I would love for you guys to share your opinions, as well as your own theories. Thanks.


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#2
Sifr

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The Forgotten Ones are completely seperate entities from the Old Gods, at least as far as we know? Their only point of similarity is that both were imprisoned, the Forgotten Ones (and the Creators) were imprisoned by Fen'Harel, whereas the Old Gods were (supposedly) imprisoned by the Maker?


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#3
Warden Majere

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The Forgotten Ones are completely seperate entities from the Old Gods, at least as far as we know? Their only point of similarity is that both were imprisoned, the Forgotten Ones (and the Creators) were imprisoned by Fen'Harel, whereas the Old Gods were (supposedly) imprisoned by the Maker?

I pressed the wrong key before I was finished, I apologize for that. Check out the finished post, and you'll see the method to my madness ;)


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#4
Handsome Jack

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Whatever you're smoking, I want some.


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#5
Warden Majere

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Whatever you're smoking, I want some.

15 bucks little man, put that s*** in my hand! But seriously. This is possible, and makes at least a little sense right? ;)



#6
theacefes

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Excellent post, OP. :) 

 

Now, do your magic again and tell us what Fen Harel would have to gain from the sky tearing open!



#7
Lady Artifice

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So...this is kind of a fan fiction? Or is Uzara an established character I'm just unfamiliar with?

#8
theacefes

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Urzara is the child of Urthemiel



#9
Lady Artifice

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Oh, okay. So this is all speculation using established lore. Got it.

Kind of dizzying for me, but...I don't think it's unreasonable.

#10
Warden Majere

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Excellent post, OP. :)

 

Now, do your magic again and tell us what Fen Harel would have to gain from the sky tearing open!

      Thank you very much!! This theory of mine is something that I put a lot of thought into. I based all of it on what I managed to find in the lore. Key word here though, is based. ;) 

 

      To be honest, I don't know if I'm convinced that Fen'Harel is behind the Veil tear at all. Following the pattern of my original post though, it would have to be an attempt to bring his precious toy back into line. The mages have rebelled against the Circle that his servants created, his Templars have abandoned him, and the Old Gods are being awoken and reborn into bodies faster than ever thanks to the Architect. There is no better way to cow people into line than putting the "fear of God" into their hearts haha. Either this, or like any other unearthly being wanting to enter the physical world, he needs a host. Maybe the normal "possession through your dreams" route isn't enough, and he needs a full-blown gate to enter the world. 

 

       But, what if, and I mean a big IF, the sky tearing in half isn't Fen'Harel's doing at all. Instead, it's the wrath and fury of the imprisoned Creators finally breaking free. All that we know is that Fen'Harel imprisoned them, but we don't know where. Could it be that they are imprisoned within the Black City? It would explain why the demon's are to afraid to approach it. It would also explain why the magisters were corrupted. I believe the Black City is the former home of the Old Gods. So, with the Wrath of the imprisoned Creators, and the Taint of the Old Gods, it could have very easily turned the magisters into Darkspawn. Now the pissed off Elven Gods have broken free from Fen'Harel's prison, and decide to purge the world of his followers in the wake of their return.

   

     Food for thought, if nothing else. :D



#11
Umbar

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It's a little terrifying that that I have had this exact same idea, all by my lonesome (I swear!). Not the entire structure you've presented (kudos, by the way!), but the whole Forgottens Ones = Old Gods and Fen'Harel = The Maker bit.



#12
Sifr

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I pressed the wrong key before I was finished, I apologize for that. Check out the finished post, and you'll see the method to my madness ;)

 

Ah, apologies! I like your theory, Fen'Harel is a good candidate for the Maker, it'd definitely fit his M.O. to mess with people and convincing people that you're a benevolent god to topple the religion of your enemies, totally seems like something a trickster would do!  :lol: 



#13
Warden Majere

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I have always been a fan of the Old Gods. If I picked an in-game religion, it would be them for sure. Originally I just wanted to make a story explaining Flemeth's background a bit. But after I researched into the lore, I found these religious connections that were too hard to resist!  It fits a compelling pattern, and makes a lot of sense. Many of the major events throughout the world's history just got solved ;)



#14
Warden Majere

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It would be amazing (though highly unlikely) if this was true canon. Everything here totally fits Fen'Harel's M.O. Sadly, Bioware has stated that they don't want to alienate fans of the Chantry. But this will always be my in my thoughts when encountering an Andrastian.



#15
Aren

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The Forgotten Ones are completely seperate entities from the Old Gods, at least as far as we know? Their only point of similarity is that both were imprisoned, the Forgotten Ones (and the Creators) were imprisoned by Fen'Harel, whereas the Old Gods were (supposedly) imprisoned by the Maker?

The dalish know nothing about their own gods they lost everything, the elven gods are not creator as gaider said here in the forum.



#16
Warden Majere

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So, it's been a few months since release, and I'm fairly proud with how close I got on some of these things. If you'd like, I will post and update to this theory, but I will include what we've learned in Inquisition, as well as some connections to the Ancient Dwarves. 

 

Cheers guys!  :D



#17
Ashagar

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Hmm what about the maker, how does he fit in general. I mean Andraste didn't make him up he was a Northern Neromenian creator deity from before they turned to the old god worship, in fact they apparently brought his worship with them out of the north to Thadas and even the old god worshiping Tevinter Imperium still belived the maker created the world and that the golden city was his seat which brings up another thing the golden city by all accounts was originally golden not black.

 

Also what of the Alamarri who apparently came from the west who also worshiped a completely unrelated set of deities from the elven gods, forgotten ones(who I suspect might really be the forgotten dwarven gods), the maker and the old gods?



#18
Warden Majere

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I am sure that there are plenty of more gods than just the ones that we've met, or that have been focused on. I too believe that the Forgotten Ones are forgotten Dwarven gods, but that they are also the Old Gods. My original post was based off of the information that I had at the time, which was before inquisition. To find more connections between the various pantheons, I need to delve deeper into the Lore. Though this is a very time consuming process, so let me know if you guys actually want to see what I think. Otherwise, I would just be wasting my virtual breath!

#19
Ashagar

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Oh I am interested, especially as I wonder on how the maker and the human gods fit in as they all seem to indeed exist in some way.

.

.



#20
DontWakeTheBear

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It's an interesting theory. I argue that the the Old God's are the actual Elven god's not the Forgotten Ones. Including Fen'Harel there are 9 Elven god's and if you take into account that we know the current location of two of them (Mythal and Fen'Harel) then that leaves only 7, the same number as the Old God's. With what I'm able to gather pieces together combined with a bit of speculation: The Elven god's made war among themselves causing chaos among the elven people, eventually leading to one of the God's murdering Mythal (we know for a fact she was murdered and not by Fen"Harel) in retribution and to stop the chaos Fen'Harel sealed away his brother's and sister's. Some time after that he entered into the Dreamer sleep. Without their God's leadership, the Elven people were thrown further into chaos (against Fen'Harel's expectations) and ended up destroying their civilization. Along comes the fledgling human Empire Tevinter who find's the remnants of a great civilization and salvage what they can, including any artifacts they can find. Some of these artifacts lead the early Magister's into contact with the sleeping god's. Now I'm not sure if the Elven god's choose to take new names or are forced to take new names (possibly no longer remembering their old ones), but after making contact with the Magister's they establish themselves as God's of a new Empire and share knowledge with their new followers in exchange for worship. Over time though worship begins to dwindle (confirmed in a codex entry in Inquistion) and in desperation the Old God's and high priests plan to breach the Fade and enter the Golden City. The priests do...and get corrupted, returning to Thedas in pain and misery they seek out their God's for comfort...and end up corrupting them as well. The rest, as they say, is history. This also explains why Fen'Harel is horrified by the Warden's plan to charge into the deep roads and murder the Old God's while they're sleeping, they're his family and it's sorta his fault they're in that position.

 

 

I don't really know what happened to the Forgotten Ones though I suspect it might involve them actually being in the fade (Demon's like Ishmael perhaps?).



#21
leaguer of one

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The Forgotten Ones are completely seperate entities from the Old Gods, at least as far as we know? Their only point of similarity is that both were imprisoned, the Forgotten Ones (and the Creators) were imprisoned by Fen'Harel, whereas the Old Gods were (supposedly) imprisoned by the Maker?

x



#22
leaguer of one

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So, it's been a few months since release, and I'm fairly proud with how close I got on some of these things. If you'd like, I will post and update to this theory, but I will include what we've learned in Inquisition, as well as some connections to the Ancient Dwarves. 

 

Cheers guys!  :D

Congrats. You near hit it on the head.


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#23
leaguer of one

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I don't really know what happened to the Forgotten Ones though I suspect it might involve them actually being in the fade (Demon's like Ishmael perhaps?).

They're the old gods.


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#24
Warden Majere

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It's an interesting theory. I argue that the the Old God's are the actual Elven god's not the Forgotten Ones. Including Fen'Harel there are 9 Elven god's and if you take into account that we know the current location of two of them (Mythal and Fen'Harel) then that leaves only 7, the same number as the Old God's. With what I'm able to gather pieces together combined with a bit of speculation: The Elven god's made war among themselves causing chaos among the elven people, eventually leading to one of the God's murdering Mythal (we know for a fact she was murdered and not by Fen"Harel) in retribution and to stop the chaos Fen'Harel sealed away his brother's and sister's. Some time after that he entered into the Dreamer sleep. Without their God's leadership, the Elven people were thrown further into chaos (against Fen'Harel's expectations) and ended up destroying their civilization. Along comes the fledgling human Empire Tevinter who find's the remnants of a great civilization and salvage what they can, including any artifacts they can find. Some of these artifacts lead the early Magister's into contact with the sleeping god's. Now I'm not sure if the Elven god's choose to take new names or are forced to take new names (possibly no longer remembering their old ones), but after making contact with the Magister's they establish themselves as God's of a new Empire and share knowledge with their new followers in exchange for worship. Over time though worship begins to dwindle (confirmed in a codex entry in Inquistion) and in desperation the Old God's and high priests plan to breach the Fade and enter the Golden City. The priests do...and get corrupted, returning to Thedas in pain and misery they seek out their God's for comfort...and end up corrupting them as well. The rest, as they say, is history. This also explains why Fen'Harel is horrified by the Warden's plan to charge into the deep roads and murder the Old God's while they're sleeping, they're his family and it's sorta his fault they're in that position.
 
 
I don't really know what happened to the Forgotten Ones though I suspect it might involve them actually being in the fade (Demon's like Ishmael perhaps?).


I've actually had similar thoughts on the compelling evidence making the Old Gods look like they are the Elven Gods. It does seem like it may lean that way. However, I am going to entertain the theory that the Old Gods and the Forgotten Ones are one and the same. Not only that, but there is compelling evidence that the Ancient Dwarves worshipped some old, forgotten gods. I deduce that these Dwarven gods, the Old Gods, and the Forgotten Ones are all the same beings.