40 réponses à ce sujet

[LordParbr]

It's useless for several reasons:

• It has a wide area of effect, which cannot be controlled (it's fixed around the caster), so unless for some reason your mage has aggro around him AND is isolated from the group (which happens only if you play badly), you're going to disrupt your teammates as well

Well, your mage is likely to draw aggro because they're doing the highest damage over the biggest radius. They're also likely to be split off from the group, because they're, generally, a ranged class(this isn't DnD. The cleric doesn't have to be right next to you at all times). You also shouldn't effect your teammates negatively. You just knocked all their targets to the ground(or stunned them), giving them time to land some free hits.
 

• Stun is very brief - it can hardly be exploited tactically to a good extend

Doesn't really matter. Any amount of time they aren't doing damage puts a dent in their DPS, plus, it'll interrupt spell casting.

 

• Taking aggro of the mage is useless in and of itself, because unless warrior takes the aggro back on himself (with appropriate talent), those enemies will very soon attack the mage again (as he's most of the time the largest threat on the battlefield) - which means that this talent is good only as a panic button, which makes it highly situational, unless again, you consistently play badly

and the tank should always be drawing aggro, so I don't see the point of this argument. At the very least, it gives the mage breathing room.

 

 

• There are talents that do similar things, only better - in DA:O you have fireball for knockdown + damage, cone of cold for 'stun' + damage, sleep for stun + taking aggro away... in DA2 fireball (which is a pretty weak spell) does a similar thing (knocks back + damages and can even be directed), and all other classes are better in managing threat anyway

True, but those are all higher-level spells.

 

 

To sum up, this spell is very situational, because there is never a moment when you want to run between enemies and use it. If you have to use it, it means that you did something wrong, and you never want to spend your talent points on situational abilities.

situational=/=weak

 

 

Removing Mana Clash was actually good, as it was heavily overpowered.

agreed

[Avaflame]

...No they aren't... Did you even look at the skill trees?
 

 

My mage never took any healing spells.
 

 

Creation was removed with DAII, and I didn't miss it. How is barrier "shoddy?" It's far improved from the previous games, where it was just a protective field.
 

 

 

No, it was merged with the other schools. Hell, some of them could be in the necromancer tree, even.
 

 

No, it's still intact... If you mean they changed the spells? Well, yeah, that's gonna happen when the mechanics change. WHENEVER they change. HOWEVER they change
 

 

Again, removed with DAII, and it was oh so important in Orgins... /sarcasm

 

True, less diversity... I mean, all 3 specializations are COMPLETELY different from each other, you can set ice traps, fire walls, panic enemies with fire spells, deliver aoe attacks, hard-hitting single target spells, debuffs, damage mitigation, freeze enemies with ice spells, paralyze enemies with lightning spells, raise dead enemies(if necromancy lives up to its name)...

I'm looking forward to building my mage for Inquisition, but it seems your being purposefully obtuse a bit there. I don't really see how you could possibly argue that the mages trees have branched out rather than been pruned down to essentially being elemental damage.

 

For one thing, whether you personally took healing spells or not has no bearing on the fact that they existed and were a major factor in mage builds for others. Don't be that guy.

'Fear' has been integrated into the Inferno tree, sure, but other than that Entropy is massively diminished in the spell trees for Inquisition as opposed to Origins and DA2, that can't be argued against. Drain Life, Vulnerability Hex, Curse of Mortality, Misdirection Hex (I didn't really use Entropy so these are the only ones I really remember) are all gone, with Horror turning into Fear/Panic as a fire spell effect and Sleep going to the rogues. Some of these may very well be a part of the Necromancer tree, but does not change the fact that they were accessible to all mages previously, and will now only be available to a few (plus, it only has 3 actives which from the description sounds like Walking Bomb, Horror and Animate Dead so it does seem those hexes and curses are gone).

 

The specialisations DO seem different from each other, however. You're right on that one. Of course, Rift Mage and Necromancer sound like they've been taken from the basic spell trees from the previous games, so yeah, that is less diversity. Before everyone had access to those abilities anyway as well as unique specialisations. It would be like if DA4 were to come out with only the Spirit tree across all mages and Inferno, Winter and Storm as specialisations and saying 'Less diversity? Those specialisations are COMPLETELY different from one another'. Knight Enchanter (it seems) is the only one that doesn't provide something previously available in the general skill trees.

 

And yes, the general skill trees are less diverse. The Fire/Ice Wall spells and Fade Step offer something new along with the Barrier mechanic, but otherwise mage talents have been whittled down. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that it's true.
 

[LordParbr]

I can no longer sleep+horror things, or mana clash mages, or crushing prison things.

o-kay... Those are true facts. Dunno why you said them to me, specifically. It really had nothing to do with my statement... Lack of sleep+horror is regrettable(though we haven't seen the necromancer skill tree, so they may be there for all we know), mana clash, while awesome, was terribly OP, and the lack of crushing prison is also regrettable. However, the lack of those 4 spells doesn't really illustrate a lack of diversity.

[LordParbr]

I'm looking forward to building my mage for Inquisition, but it seems your being purposefully obtuse a bit there. I don't really see how you could possibly argue that the mages trees have branched out rather than been pruned down to essentially being elemental damage.

 

For one thing, whether you personally took healing spells or not has no bearing on the fact that they existed and were a major factor in mage builds for others. Don't be that guy.

'Fear' has been integrated into the Inferno tree, sure, but other than that Entropy is massively diminished in the spell trees for Inquisition as opposed to Origins and DA2, that can't be argued against. Drain Life, Vulnerability Hex, Curse of Mortality, Misdirection Hex (I didn't really use Entropy so these are the only ones I really remember) are all gone, with Horror turning into Fear/Panic as a fire spell effect and Sleep going to the rogues. Some of these may very well be a part of the Necromancer tree, but does not change the fact that they were accessible to all mages previously, and will now only be available to a few (plus, it only has 3 actives which from the description sounds like Walking Bomb, Horror and Animate Dead so it does seem those hexes and curses are gone).

 

The specialisations DO seem different from each other, however. You're right on that one. Of course, Rift Mage and Necromancer sound like they've been taken from the basic spell trees from the previous games, so yeah, that is less diversity. Before everyone had access to those abilities anyway as well as unique specialisations. It would be like if DA4 were to come out with only the Spirit tree across all mages and Inferno, Winter and Storm as specialisations and saying 'Less diversity? Those specialisations are COMPLETELY different from one another'. Knight Enchanter (it seems) is the only one that doesn't provide something previously available in the general skill trees.

 

And yes, the general skill trees are less diverse. The Fire/Ice Wall spells and Fade Step offer something new along with the Barrier mechanic, but otherwise mage talents have been whittled down. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that it's true.
 

fewer talents/old talents not necessarily open to everyone isn't the same thing as less diversity. That's just kind of what happens when mechanics change. It's streamlining.

EDIT: I wasn't being purposefully obtuse, though I fully admit that I may have been, accidentally. I wasn't trying to claim that the number of spells/schools is the same. I was saying that the diversity is. i.e., while the "horror" spell is, probably, a necromancer spell, the fear effect is still in the normal spell pool.

[Avaflame]

No, but less diversity is the same thing as less diversity. I'm not talking about the number of spells, I'm talking about the variety. Let's talk fruit for some reason.

 

5 green apples, 5 oranges, 5 bananas, 5 mangoes, (Origins)

3 ripe green apples, 3 ripe oranges, 3 ripe bananas, 3 ripe mangoes (streamlined, DA2)
2 ripe red apples, and 2 peaches (new takes on old fruit and some entirely new fruit, but less options in what to eat, Inquisition)

 

Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Only that those who think it is are not unjustified. There is less variety and diversity in how you will be able to play a mage than in previous games, especially in terms of their active talents.

 

[LordParbr]

No, but less diversity is the same thing as less diversity. I'm not talking about the number of spells, I'm talking about the variety. Let's talk fruit for some reason.

 

5 green apples, 5 oranges, 5 bananas, 5 mangoes, (Origins)

3 ripe green apples, 3 ripe oranges, 3 ripe bananas, 3 ripe mangoes (streamlined, DA2)
2 ripe red apples, and 2 peaches (new takes on old fruit and some entirely new fruit, but less options in what to eat, Inquisition)

 

Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Only that those who think it is are not unjustified. There is less variety and diversity in how you will be able to play a mage than in previous games, especially in terms of their active talents.

 

the analogy doesn't really help here, sir. I can't read your mind. You're basically just making a claim here, without actually supporting it. A mage can set traps, do single-target damage, aoe damage, block routes, buff the party, debuff the enmy, apply status effects. Aside from not being able to heal, I'm not seeing the lack of diversity.

[viciouswhisper]

mind blast the enemies off a cliff and ask them if it hurt

[Avaflame]

Ok then. In origins and DA2 mages could set traps, do more types (nature, physical, spirit) of single-target damage as well as aoe damage, buff the party in more significant ways than adding a barrier (defence, speed, mana/health regeneration, spellpower) debuff enemies in more significant ways than dispel (as already mentioned many times), apply status effects, heal, combine spell effects (in Origins).

 

Inquisition adds the ability to block routes (Ice Wall) and battlefield manoeuvrability (Fade Step) and does away with buffs/debuffs almost entirely (contrary to you repeating otherwise, Barrier and Dispel are the only things that qualify and even then the only utility Dispel has now is to deal with Barrier. It adds two spells that offer something new and gets rid of almost everything else that isn't elemental damage.

 

But since this is now the second time I'm saying this, it's clear to me that you could believe that 1+1 = 7 and there would be nothing I could say to dissuade you otherwise so that's all I'll say on the matter.

[CrazyMooNew]

No, but less diversity is the same thing as less diversity. I'm not talking about the number of spells, I'm talking about the variety. Let's talk fruit for some reason.

 

5 green apples, 5 oranges, 5 bananas, 5 mangoes, (Origins)

3 ripe green apples, 3 ripe oranges, 3 ripe bananas, 3 ripe mangoes (streamlined, DA2)
2 ripe red apples, and 2 peaches (new takes on old fruit and some entirely new fruit, but less options in what to eat, Inquisition)

 

Again, I'm not saying this is a bad thing. Only that those who think it is are not unjustified. There is less variety and diversity in how you will be able to play a mage than in previous games, especially in terms of their active talents.

 

 

They added spells....there are new spells in DA:I that have never been in any Dragon Age game ever before....we don't even know all of the spells they've freakin added (Necromancer tree is still a mystery).

 

Yes...it sucks that crushing prison and sleep are out of the game, but to ignore the new spells such as walls of fire and ice or mines...is a mistake when you're clamoring about a lack of diversity. Some spells got left out...some skill tree's no longer exist, but there are new spells and what looks to be a much larger skill tree system than what we've seen in DA:O. And the spells that we do have can be upgraded...giving the player more depth in the decisions they make regarding spell selection/point application.

[Patriciachr34]

It's useless for several reasons:

• It has a wide area of effect, which cannot be controlled (it's fixed around the caster), so unless for some reason your mage has aggro around him AND is isolated from the group (which happens only if you play badly), you're going to disrupt your teammates as well
• Stun is very brief - it can hardly be exploited tactically to a good extend
• Taking aggro of the mage is useless in and of itself, because unless warrior takes the aggro back on himself (with appropriate talent), those enemies will very soon attack the mage again (as he's most of the time the largest threat on the battlefield) - which means that this talent is good only as a panic button, which makes it highly situational, unless again, you consistently play badly
• There are talents that do similar things, only better - in DA:O you have fireball for knockdown + damage, cone of cold for 'stun' + damage, sleep for stun + taking aggro away... in DA2 fireball (which is a pretty weak spell) does a similar thing (knocks back + damages and can even be directed), and all other classes are better in managing threat anyway

To sum up, this spell is very situational, because there is never a moment when you want to run between enemies and use it. If you have to use it, it means that you did something wrong, and you never want to spend your talent points on situational abilities.

 

In DA2 it was one of the reasons why Maker's Sigh was such a good potion. In DA:O it was a sad prerequisite for Force Field and Crushing Prison (and to smaller degree Telekinetic Weapons). 

 

 

 

Removing Mana Clash was actually good, as it was heavily overpowered. 

I actually actively used Mind Blast in DA2.  DPS & Tank mobbed, mage runs up, mind blast to stop crazy mob from dispersing, backs up then firestorm.  Formula equals dead mobs.  I like that we still have the option of stunning grouped mobs so our AOE spells are more effective.; or to reduce the damage taken by our close quarter NPC's for a short time.  I can imagine doing the same, but instead of Fire Storm, use barrier.  This will help keep the damage dealers healthier longer against a tough mob.  If used strategically this spell can be quite useful.

[andar91]

I'm looking forward to building my mage for Inquisition, but it seems your being purposefully obtuse a bit there. I don't really see how you could possibly argue that the mages trees have branched out rather than been pruned down to essentially being elemental damage.

 

For one thing, whether you personally took healing spells or not has no bearing on the fact that they existed and were a major factor in mage builds for others. Don't be that guy.

'Fear' has been integrated into the Inferno tree, sure, but other than that Entropy is massively diminished in the spell trees for Inquisition as opposed to Origins and DA2, that can't be argued against. Drain Life, Vulnerability Hex, Curse of Mortality, Misdirection Hex (I didn't really use Entropy so these are the only ones I really remember) are all gone, with Horror turning into Fear/Panic as a fire spell effect and Sleep going to the rogues. Some of these may very well be a part of the Necromancer tree, but does not change the fact that they were accessible to all mages previously, and will now only be available to a few (plus, it only has 3 actives which from the description sounds like Walking Bomb, Horror and Animate Dead so it does seem those hexes and curses are gone).

 

The specialisations DO seem different from each other, however. You're right on that one. Of course, Rift Mage and Necromancer sound like they've been taken from the basic spell trees from the previous games, so yeah, that is less diversity. Before everyone had access to those abilities anyway as well as unique specialisations. It would be like if DA4 were to come out with only the Spirit tree across all mages and Inferno, Winter and Storm as specialisations and saying 'Less diversity? Those specialisations are COMPLETELY different from one another'. Knight Enchanter (it seems) is the only one that doesn't provide something previously available in the general skill trees.

 

And yes, the general skill trees are less diverse. The Fire/Ice Wall spells and Fade Step offer something new along with the Barrier mechanic, but otherwise mage talents have been whittled down. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just saying that it's true.
 

 

If you upgrade Ice Mine, it essentially becomes a combo CC and Hex of Torment (Brittle Glyph makes them 25% more vulnerable to damage). 

 

I'm immensely happy with the abilities that they are providing, but I am admittedly immensely disappointed that so much was taken out. I'll still enjoy this game, but I truly hope that in the next game, mages have a greater variety of options to choose from once again (I'd honestly be happy if they just brought back Entropy and Creation and worked remainders into Spirit).

[DMaster2]

o-kay... Those are true facts. Dunno why you said them to me, specifically. It really had nothing to do with my statement... Lack of sleep+horror is regrettable(though we haven't seen the necromancer skill tree, so they may be there for all we know), mana clash, while awesome, was terribly OP, and the lack of crushing prison is also regrettable. However, the lack of those 4 spells doesn't really illustrate a lack of diversity.

Well the lack of diversity come from the fact that entropy got eradicated, basic mages trees are all elemental except for the barrier tree and from what i saw there is no sign of nature damage anywhere (i hope at least this is just my fear). No more spirit healer or blood magic either. Definitely lack of diversity, compared to before.

[LordParbr]

 

Ok then. In origins and DA2 mages could set traps

and they still can. There are only 2 now, but they're there.

 

 

do more types (nature, physical, spirit) of single-target damage as well as aoe damage

Not entirely a drop in diversity, though I can conceed this point.

 

 

, buff the party in more significant ways than adding a barrier (defence, speed, mana/health regeneration, spellpower)

No, barrier can be upgraded to apply some of these buffs. So, there's that. Either way, it still isn't an appreciable drop in diversity to me because a mage can still apply a buff.

 

 

debuff enemies in more significant ways than dispel (as already mentioned many times)

Same deal as with barrier, except for evolving it to have more effects.

 

 

, apply status effects, heal, combine spell effects (in Origins).

Check, check(for Knight Enchanter), and point taken
 

 

 buffs/debuffs almost entirely

doesn't matter. They're more limited now, but they're there.

 

 

But since this is now the second time I'm saying this, it's clear to me that you could believe that 1+1 = 7 and there would be nothing I could say to dissuade you otherwise so that's all I'll say on the matter.

rude...

Anyway, yes, a few things were removed. However, a few things were added too. Some things are much more limited than they used to be, but they're still there. My point isn't that there was NO drop in diversity. It's that it isn't appreciable. There is still quite a lot.

[Morroian]

Well the lack of diversity come from the fact that entropy got eradicated, basic mages trees are all elemental except for the barrier tree and from what i saw there is no sign of nature damage anywhere (i hope at least this is just my fear). No more spirit healer or blood magic either. Definitely lack of diversity, compared to before.

 

Yep, 1 suggestion I have made to at least partially overcome this would have been to increase the number of classes or have more specs. That would give them more diversity in another way.

[BellPeppers&Beef023]

Because video games, and fiction in general, have repeatedly underestimated the effects of blunt trauma since time immemorial. Unless its a car crash.

[kipac]

It hurts when people push you hard enough that you fall flat to the ground. This spell sends people flying a few meters doing a barrel roll.

That's just an action made to be flashy and emphasized like how almost every combat move shown so far in DAI is. The actual thing it does is still just causing a concussion.

What you are doing is like comparing a combat in game and a combat in cinematic cutscenes.
Shepard kills cannibals in a single Carnifex or Avenger shot in cutscenes. Does that mean you get to do the same in an actual combat in-game? No. They are different.