Guest_Cat Blade_*
I'm planning to select a Dalish for my initial playthrough. I want her to definitely be atheist against any Andrastian lore. But I'm confused if atheism in the world of Thedas is considered the same as it is in real life. Would a Dalish who is atheist toward Andrastian lore also be atheist toward Dalish lore? I really don't know how to constuct an idea of "atheism" within Thedas since things like magic and demons are proven to exist.
Feedback?
I think it's more important to ask WHY - if you're in a world where you know there's an alternate realm, magic, souls, and sapient beings of vast enough power to be considered "gods"... would you be an atheist?
Being against Andrastian lore isn't atheist - it's being an unbeliever.
Being against the traditional Dalish pantheon isn't necessarily being an atheist either.
It's like if a Norse person decided to believe in the Egyptian patheon... they're not an atheist to the Norse pantheon.
That being said - "what" does your Dalish believe all that extra stuff is? Just natural science - that explanation doesn't compute because one must annihilate our definition of "natural science" to make these things fit. They cannot be natural science any more than a door can be a chicken... yes, you can start calling a door a chicken, but you're simply annihilating any use of language if you do so.
So what does your Dalish think about spirits, the Fade and magic in particular (the things that are obviously real in Thedas).
Just say that you don't buy into either religion, or that you don't care.
I think it's more important to ask WHY - if you're in a world where you know there's an alternate realm, magic, souls, and sapient beings of vast enough power to be considered "gods"... would you be an atheist?
Being against Andrastian lore isn't atheist - it's being an unbeliever.
Being against the traditional Dalish pantheon isn't necessarily being an atheist either.
It's like if a Norse person decided to believe in the Egyptian patheon... they're not an atheist to the Norse pantheon.
That being said - "what" does your Dalish believe all that extra stuff is? Just natural science - that explanation doesn't compute because one must annihilate our definition of "natural science" to make these things fit. They cannot be natural science any more than a door can be a chicken... yes, you can start calling a door a chicken, but you're simply annihilating any use of language if you do so.
So what does your Dalish think about spirits, the Fade and magic in particular (the things that are obviously real in Thedas).
Why must an atheist believe magic is natural science? Atheists can still have supernatural beliefs just as long as they don't involve gods.
I think agnosticism is a far more reasonable point of view in Thedas then outright atheism (and this is coming from someone who is the latter IRL). In a world where alternative explanations for natural (and supernatural) occurances have yet to be discovered and developed, coming at it from a perspective of "I don't know", makes a lot more sense than "there are no gods".
I'm an Atheist IRL but IMO it is actually kind of immersion-breaking or just silly to not believe in deities in the Dragon Age Universe.
In contrast to the real world, the world of Thedas actually have evidence for such. In a high-fantasy world, believing in gods is actually excusable.
@milkeymoonshine: It's a popular explanation many people use on the BSN - but only one of many, and just happened to be the one I used to provide an example of how I would question what I believed about the supernatural in Thedas.
I'm not saying what people should, or should not, believe.
I don't think you can roleplay as an atheist in Dragon Age. This is coming from a hardcore atheist.
The most you can roleplay as an indifferent agnostic. The simple reason being that we do not have theories like Big Bang or Evolution or Empirical Philosophy or Objectivism or Giant Spaghetti Monster or Giant Teapot Argument, etc in Thedas.
Atheist do not believe in the nonexistence of gods. They usually have plenty of evidence to back it up. There is no evidence on Thedas to support atheism.
However, you can be an agnostic in Thedas. You can most definitely roleplay as an agnostic Dalish Elf. I mean your so-called Gods have been silent for so long now that they might be a myth, the Maker thing sounds crap to you...but that does not mean you have solid evidence to say there is no God in Thedas...
I think it's more important to ask WHY - if you're in a world where you know there's an alternate realm, magic, souls, and sapient beings of vast enough power to be considered "gods"... would you be an atheist?
(1) Because the same logic applies to fantastic beings as applies to non-fantastic ones: you believe in things you can perceive or things whose existence you can infer from compelling evidence. To not believe in dragons or spirits is ridiculous in the context of Thedas. To not believe in the Creators, or the Maker, makes perfect sense.
(2) Because the appellation "deity" lies solely in the minds of people. What, after all, is the difference between a super-powerful mage and a deity?
If "god" is simply a shortcut for "super-powerful being", then of course it makes no sense to be an atheist, but then a god is, by definition, not any more or less worthy of worship than any other being, except by virtue of its power. While that makes perfect sense, most religions see something more in their deities.
I'm an Atheist IRL but IMO it is actually kind of immersion-breaking or just silly to not believe in deities in the Dragon Age Universe.
In contrast to the real world, the world of Thedas actually have evidence for such. In a high-fantasy world, believing in gods is actually excusable.
To be honest, I wouldn't say there is more evidence in Thedas of gods than IRL. There is clearly evidence of the supernatural, but nothing that requires a deity. What is lacking from the point of view of atheism is evidence of alternatives. Just as, 1000 years ago, it was pretty rational to believe in God (or gods), as religion provided an explanation for many things and there was nothing significant to suggest that it was wrong, (as opposed to today where this is a lot of evidence to the contrary), in Thedas, "the Maker did it", or "the Creators did it", is a reasonable explanation to use, and it is hard for people to come up with reasons why that would be wrong.
Now of course, there is the quite interesting option of roleplaying a character who, believes in the Maker, but does not worship Him, and possibly even hates Him - something I actually feel is justfiable in universe. The Maker demans that we spread the chant and request his forgiveness? He is the one that should be begging our forgiveness. He abandoned his children. He cursed Thedas. He punished the entire world for the actions of specific people. How many innocents have suffered, how many innocents have died at the hands of the Darkspawn? Why? Because of the actions of a few men that the dead had nothing to do with? Those are not the actions of a loving creator. Those are not the actions of a being worthy of worship. Those are the actions of a cruel tyrant and I will defy him to my last breath.
Guest_Cat Blade_*
I think it's more important to ask WHY - if you're in a world where you know there's an alternate realm, magic, souls, and sapient beings of vast enough power to be considered "gods"... would you be an atheist?
Being against Andrastian lore isn't atheist - it's being an unbeliever.
Being against the traditional Dalish pantheon isn't necessarily being an atheist either.
It's like if a Norse person decided to believe in the Egyptian patheon... they're not an atheist to the Norse pantheon.
That being said - "what" does your Dalish believe all that extra stuff is? Just natural science - that explanation doesn't compute because one must annihilate our definition of "natural science" to make these things fit. They cannot be natural science any more than a door can be a chicken... yes, you can start calling a door a chicken, but you're simply annihilating any use of language if you do so.
So what does your Dalish think about spirits, the Fade and magic in particular (the things that are obviously real in Thedas).
Yeah, see this is helpful. Because I'm trying to figure out what a Dalish would "be" if they didn't believe in the Andrastian teachings/lore. But demons, magic, the fade, etc. is proven to exist. I think your suggestion of "nonbeliever" seems to be the most fitting. I was using the term "atheist" because I assumed that the Chantry would condemn anyone who doesn't believe in their teachings as such - and/or a heretic.
It's a little confusing since I need to weigh in the Dalish lore, and the fantastical things that truly exist in Thedas. Nonbeliever seems to fit.
Guest_Cat Blade_*
I don't think you can roleplay as an atheist in Dragon Age. This is coming from a hardcore atheist.
The most you can roleplay as an indifferent agnostic. The simple reason being that we do not have theories like Big Bang or Evolution or Empirical Philosophy or Objectivism or Giant Spaghetti Monster or Giant Teapot Argument, etc in Thedas.
Atheist do not believe in the nonexistence of gods. They usually have plenty of evidence to back it up. There is no evidence on Thedas to support atheism.
However, you can be an agnostic in Thedas. You can most definitely roleplay as an agnostic Dalish Elf. I mean your so-called Gods have been silent for so long now that they might be a myth, the Maker thing sounds crap to you...but that does not mean you have solid evidence to say there is no God in Thedas...
I am inclined to agree. That's why I posted this, because I needed a few of you to jog my brain.
I think my biggest concern was, "Does not believing in the Chantry's Maker mean that you're atheist? If so, then where does that leave beliefs in factual things like demons etc.?" I mean... you can't not believe in things that factually exist unless you want to look stupid. But that's not my drive. Seems like agnosticism or heresy is the way to go.
Also: Are Dalish considered heretics by the Chantry? I know Qunari tend to be...
Guest_Puddi III_*
I'm planning to select a Dalish for my initial playthrough. I want her to definitely be atheist against any Andrastian lore. But I'm confused if atheism in the world of Thedas is considered the same as it is in real life. Would a Dalish who is atheist toward Andrastian lore also be atheist toward Dalish lore? I really don't know how to constuct an idea of "atheism" within Thedas since things like magic and demons are proven to exist.
Feedback?
Guest_Cat Blade_*
They would believe in the things that are proven to exist, like magic and demons, and not in the things that aren't, like any of the religious pantheons.
No, 'atheism' toward only Andrastian lore doesn't make them an atheist if they still believe the Dalish lore.
And I doubt they really have a term for it in Thedas, it's all heretics and heathens.
Heathen it is then! 
Yeah, see this is helpful. Because I'm trying to figure out what a Dalish would "be" if they didn't believe in the Andrastian teachings/lore. But demons, magic, the fade, etc. is proven to exist. I think your suggestion of "nonbeliever" seems to be the most fitting. I was using the term "atheist" because I assumed that the Chantry would condemn anyone who doesn't believe in their teachings as such - and/or a heretic.
It's a little confusing since I need to weigh in the Dalish lore, and the fantastical things that truly exist in Thedas. Nonbeliever seems to fit.
You could be a follower of the Dalish gods and goddess. Especially if you are playing an elven mage, this makes even more sense, as you are the first to your keeper, ie a keeper in training. You would be learning of the elven pantheon, as well as ways to regain old lore. You could hate and despise the chantry, while believing in the elven pantheon.
Though speaking of elven religion, do they also have ancestor veneration and/or animistic practices among the dalish. Ie offering prayers, hymns, offerings, sacrafices to the dead and local spirits? This is something that occurs in most polythesitic religions IRL so curious if the dalish also do this, especially as spirits do exist in DA.
I am inclined to agree. That's why I posted this, because I needed a few of you to jog my brain.
I think my biggest concern was, "Does not believing in the Chantry's Maker mean that you're atheist? If so, then where does that leave beliefs in factual things like demons etc.?" I mean... you can't not believe in things that factually exist unless you want to look stupid. But that's not my drive. Seems like agnosticism or heresy is the way to go.
Also: Are Dalish considered heretics by the Chantry? I know Qunari tend to be...
Glad to be of service. That's the thing with atheism, in that it requires a firm foundation in logic and reason. You cannot just say "Ah I do not believe in this God and this religion because feelings" . An atheist or at least a good one, must be able to demonstrate that the God and religion in question make absolutely no rational and/or logical sense. That is the key aspect of atheism :- It is a commitment to objective reality.
The thing is, there are no rational or logical arguments that can be used effectively against any religion in Thedas, unlike the real world where we have science and philosophy.
The Dalish are considered heretics by many in the Chantry. Remember how Leliana used to say that her views on the Maker were scorned by others in the Chantry ?
You should roleplay as an indifferent agnostic heathen Dalish Elf. Add magic to that for awesomesauce.
@Ieldra: Prior to their creation - would it have been ignorance to believe in a race of malevolent creatures that poison the land with their very existence? You might say yes - but it would have been that crazy person that would have been right and you wrong.
Magic worlds don't operate on the same paradigm as our real universe... things literally can just "pop" into existence on a macro-scale. That can't happen for real in our world.
As for the difference between a "god" and a mage and a mundane - I think it comes down to ego to not want to see what I consider painfully obvious differences.
A mundane man in a fantasy world operates largely like a real human would. He lives, he struggles, he dies.
While it's not as true for DA mages - wizards tend to be actually in tune with their fictional universe. This makes them genuinely more perceptive than the average man can possible be. Real humans in our world could never see an atom... or a molecule ... or a million other things we use machines to draw images for. A mage "can" train himself to do these "type" of things in the ficitional universe. This type of human does not exist in the real world.
A god must be a being. Abstracts begin reaching into the realm of what people like Einstein meant when he talked about god... our best real world terminology for an abstract, non-being, god - is Nature (in the East it is called the Tao). The force (sapient or not is not relevant) behind all existence which we named for the sake of convenience but which is so entirely vast that all it's systems encompass everything there is, was and will be.
This being, which we call a god, must have a form - even if that form is "formless". The Form of a deity is it's aspects... Creator, Destroyer, Agriculture, the Sun, the Moon, etc. etc. It must possess powers. But it need not "live" "struggle" or "die" in the sense of a man or a "mage" or even the fantastical creatures in the universe it inhabits (like a dragon). They are beyond the rules - and the rules often exist because of them. A god, is an idea, with a form.
Logical arguments like everything comes from something are pointless... because it is a fictional universe... they do not. Any rules, others than the rules imposed by the creator, are irrelevant no matter how many "fans" threaten the creator with name calling like: This is stupid - if you knew what you were doing you'd do it like I say.
Instead of getting mired in terminology, let me describe what my first planned Inquisitor believes:
She does not believe the Maker exists, nor the Creators. She concedes that they *might* exist, but sees no reason to believe it. As a mage, she knows spirits are a fact, and - most likely - extremely powerful entities like those people call the Old Gods, but what is the difference between a god and a super-powerful spirit - or mage, at that? While some such entities may exist and others turn out to exist, one thing they all have in common: there is no reason to give them any moral authority over her life. Her life is her own, not any god's, real or imaginary, doesn't matter. The idea of worship is alien to her mind.
@Ieldra: Very similar to my own. Most notable difference is that my main Inquisitor is actively hostile to Fade entities no matter their title.
Guest_Cat Blade_*
You could be a follower of the Dalish gods and goddess. Especially if you are playing an elven mage, this makes even more sense, as you are the first to your keeper, ie a keeper in training. You would be learning of the elven pantheon, as well as ways to regain old lore. You could hate and despise the chantry, while believing in the elven pantheon.
Though speaking of elven religion, do they also have ancestor veneration and/or animistic practices among the dalish. Ie offering prayers, hymns, offerings, sacrafices to the dead and local spirits? This is something that occurs in most polythesitic religions IRL so curious if the dalish also do this, especially as spirits do exist in DA.
What of the doubts my Dalish might have about if whether or not their gods and goddesses are actually deities? You know... what if my inquisitor suspects elven deities may have been dragons etc?
Hay ive RPd that since i was 7.
the answer is simple look for the scientiffic reason. the deities are more interdimentional beings as apposed to gods magic is more energy / mater manipulation.
I think it was Isac Asamof who said. Science can be so advanced as to be virtualy indistinguasibe from magic.
look at Thundarr the barbarian.
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