165 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

@Ieldra:  Prior to their creation - would it have been ignorance to believe in a race of malevolent creatures that poison the land with their very existence?  You might say yes - but it would have been that crazy person that would have been right and you wrong.

Before their creation, that belief would've been correct, not wrong. This is not about belief in a possibility, but in an actuality.
 
 

Magic worlds don't operate on the same paradigm as our real universe... things literally can just "pop" into existence on a macro-scale.

You do not know that. The idea that everything has a cause may not be codified in fantastic worlds, but people still very much operate by it, and nobody has ever claimed, in-world, that things come into existence without a cause except for religions.
 
 

A god must be a being.  Abstracts begin reaching into the realm of what people like Einstein meant when he talked about god... our best real world terminology for an abstract, non-being, god - is Nature (in the East it is called the Tao).  The force (sapient or not is not relevant) behind all existence which we named for the sake of convenience but which is so entirely vast that all it's systems encompass everything there is, was and will be.
 
This being, which we call a god, must have a form - even if that form is "formless".  The Form of a deity is it's aspects... Creator, Destroyer, Agriculture, the Sun, the Moon, etc. etc. It must possess powers.  But it need not "live" "struggle" or "die" in the sense of a man or a "mage" or even the fantastical creatures in the universe it inhabits (like a dragon).  They are beyond the rules - and the rules often exist because of them. A god, is an idea, with a form.

And such ideas only exist in our minds, as do all concepts. Concepts are useful abstractions to describe structural similarities in the things we can perceive, but all they are is language. They don't exist as entities, they only describe. Gods start in the realm of the mind, and in order to become real, they must step out of there, thus becoming entities that can act - and are subject to the same rules as every other entity or object. I have seen no undeniably real god that was truly beyond the rules, neither in fiction nor in reality. Either they remained abstractions and never stepped out of the realm of the mind, or they became subject to the world's rules. (Almost needless to say, I am a nominalist).

[Vilegrim]

I'd like to be able to RP a Dalish at all, but it doesn't seem likely as the only 'oppose the chantry' we have seen is one line of snark about the Herald title, which is promptly ignored by everyone as they plan your meeting with the chantry leadership...

[Itkovian]

That being said - "what" does your Dalish believe all that extra stuff is?  Just natural science - that explanation doesn't compute because one must annihilate our definition of "natural science" to make these things fit.  They cannot be natural science any more than a door can be a chicken... yes, you can start calling a door a chicken, but you're simply annihilating any use of language if you do so.

 

Why not? If the Fade is proven as part of reality, then it simply means that our model of what is "natural" is incorrect. The existence of magic and the Fade doens't make it impossible to be an atheist, it just means that the reality of the setting is broader than our own. Think of Morrigan, and her convos with Leliana. As a mage, one who obviously has a pretty deep understanding of the Fade and spirits than most, she clearly seems to take a more "naturalistic" view of things.

 

In other words, in a world where there is magic, it just means that magic is another facet of reality that can be studied and understood, and that doesn't make atheism impossible. It certainly makes it more difficult (it's a lot easier to be religious and believe in supreme beings if there's demons from the spirit world infesting the land *grin*), but to make it impossible you'd need actual evidence of the Maker or some other supreme beings (and even then, what's to say that these beings deserve worship and devotion? To some they'd just be another mystery that needs to be explained and solved).

 

Heck, given the nature of the Fade, and of spirits molding to match people's subconscious and beliefs, it probably makes a lot of people's religious revelatory experiences suspect. For example, generally my Warden is a devout Andrastian, and to him the Sacred Ashes quest was very much a confirmation of his beliefs... but we all know that lyrium and spirits played a big role in that whole experience.

 

To use a more modern situation, imagine if we discovered that mental powers were real (telekinetics, telepathy, prescience)... that wouldn't undermine Atheism. It'd just add new fields of scientific studies to the mix.

 

Anyway, if you want to play an elven atheist, rock on, there's nothing wrong with that, though it certainly would be extremely rare.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  Magic is literally the art of "crap popping up out of existence".  Mundanes don't fear mages simply because magic is dangerous - but also because it's totally unpredictable.

 

I'm not going to argue these points here, and I was in error to even really bringing them up on this thread as it was not what the OP asked - but I've yet to read any fantasy world where things don't just happen at the whim of the creator i.e. "pop into existence".  

 

Have you ever heard of the term "sympathetic magic" - it's a real world term, and it's where gods came from in our species.  I laughed when Solas used it in a recent video concerning Veil fire. I ask this because of your assertion about ideas in our minds - and gods.

 

@Itkovian:  Can doors be cars in Dragon Age?  If not, why not?

Our natural universe - is a description of something.  You cannot say DA is like "our natural universe".  You saying magic can be studied and understood... is a prime example of ascribing "our natural universe" to DA.  There is every possibility that... at it's core... magic cannot be described, even if it can be utilized.  

 

There has been over 10,000 years of civilization in DA (as opposed to our 5,000).  And our codexes STILL say - "We know next to nothing about magic."  

 

A person can drive a car - without being able to repair, build or understand the basic priniciples of a car.  So it "may" be with magic on Thedas - nobody but the creators can actually know.

 

====

With that, I am going to bow out and concede as this thread is not about this.  

[Rockpopple]

An Atheist is an Atheist. She wouldn't believe in any Gods of any lore. So she wouldn't believe in the Dalish Creators either. I don't think Atheism is a grab-bag of "pick your own deities." It means you don't believe in the entire concept. 

 

So she'd be like Morrigan in that respect: she'd believe or acknowledge what she knows to be real - like Fade spirits and demons - but the idea of a benevolent or even disappointed Maker or group of Creators with some fanciful creation myth would take actual evidence for her to be convinced.

[HTTP 404]

being atheist isn't exclusive of just Christianity but all religions.

 

Your Dalish Elf would never worship anything including Dalish gods. 

[ziloe]

My feedback is that I don't think you know what an atheist is.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I'm not the only who read this thread as "raping an atheist dalish" on first glance am I? Jesus, the term "Rp'ing" just doesn't look right even though I know it means role-playing.

 

My feedback is that I don't think you know what an atheist is.

 

 

It's a person with a belief that no god exists and also the easiest religious belief to troll.

[ziloe]

I'm not the only who read this thread as "raping an atheist dalish" on first glance am I? Jesus, the term "Rp'ing" just doesn't look right even though I know it means role-playing.

 

 

 

It's a person with a belief that no god exists and also the easiest religious belief to troll.

I was refering to the OP.

[lizthetimelord]

I think it's more important to ask WHY - if you're in a world where you know there's an alternate realm, magic, souls, and sapient beings of vast enough power to be considered "gods"... would you be an atheist? 

Being against Andrastian lore isn't atheist - it's being an unbeliever.

 

Being against the traditional Dalish pantheon isn't necessarily being an atheist either.

 

It's like if a Norse person decided to believe in the Egyptian patheon... they're not an atheist to the Norse pantheon.

 

That being said - "what" does your Dalish believe all that extra stuff is?  Just natural science - that explanation doesn't compute because one must annihilate our definition of "natural science" to make these things fit.  They cannot be natural science any more than a door can be a chicken... yes, you can start calling a door a chicken, but you're simply annihilating any use of language if you do so.

 

So what does your Dalish think about spirits, the Fade and magic in particular (the things that are obviously real in Thedas).

 

Just because magic exists doesn't mean a god exists. Atheism is a lack of belief in gods. It doesn't say anything regarding beliefs in other 'supernatural' things. In our world, where the supernatural is often tied to a belief in the afterlife and also of gods, it's can be hard to distinguish, but in fantasy it's very different. 

[budzai]

I don't think you can roleplay as an atheist in Dragon Age. This is coming from a hardcore atheist.

 

The most you can roleplay as an indifferent agnostic. The simple reason being that we do not have theories like Big Bang or Evolution or Empirical Philosophy or Objectivism or Giant Spaghetti Monster or Giant Teapot Argument, etc in Thedas. 

 

Atheist do not believe in the nonexistence of gods. They usually have plenty of evidence to back it up. There is no evidence on Thedas to support atheism. 

 

However, you can be an agnostic in Thedas. You can most definitely roleplay as an agnostic Dalish Elf. I mean your so-called Gods have been silent for so long now that they might be a myth, the Maker thing sounds crap to you...but that does not mean you have solid evidence to say there is no God in Thedas...

I don't want to star a religious/faith debate (I don't really give a f*** about what other people believe) but I just can't resist to troll ya now...
To an avarage joe the bing bang theory or evoulution is the same myticth thing like any religion (he/she don't see any evidence himself/herself) and these thing doesn't prove there is no god... if the big bang theory and evolution is true there still can be a god/gods...

[lizthetimelord]

being atheist isn't exclusive of just Christianity but all religions.

 

Your Dalish Elf would never worship anything including Dalish gods. 

 

Nope, you can be atheist towards different gods. In fact, all religious people are atheist when it comes to other religions' gods. 

[herkles]

The question of atheism, and btw there are religions which one can be an atheist in such as buddhism or in DA the Qun. also depends on how you define deities. the various deities of my religion, hellenismos/greek polyheism, have different qualities and some entities, such as local spirits or nymphs are rather small in terms of actual influence and power, yet if I was in that area I still would honor them.

 

 

Nope, you can be atheist towards different gods. In fact, all religious people are atheist when it comes to other religions' gods. 

the idea of religious exlusive is a monotheistic concept for the most part; ie that you must follow x religion and only x religion.

 

As an example, I pratice Hellenismos so my deities are the greek ones. However that doesn't mean I don't deny the existence of other people's deities, heck I include Ganesh into my prayers on the occassion that I feel his aide could be handy. If I was invited to a norse blot, or I attended a shinto ritual, there is nothing in my religion that I can't offer hospitality and provide offerings to those deities as well. 

[lizthetimelord]

The question of atheism, and btw there are religions which one can be an atheist in such as buddhism or in DA the Qun. also depends on how you define deities. the various deities of my religion, hellenismos/greek polyheism, have different qualities and some entities, such as local spirits or nymphs are rather small in terms of actual influence and power, yet if I was in that area I still would honor them.

 

 

the idea of religious exlusive is a monotheistic concept for the most part; ie that you must follow x religion and only x religion.

 

As an example, I pratice Hellenismos so my deities are the greek ones. However that doesn't mean I don't deny the existence of other people's deities, heck I include Ganesh into my prayers on the occassion that I feel his aide could be handy. If I was invited to a norse blot, or I attended a shinto ritual, there is nothing in my religion that I can't offer hospitality and provide offerings to those deities as well. 

 

Sorry, I shouldn't have said ALL religious people. But the point is the OP can very much be a religious Dalish and still be atheist towards the Andratian god. 

[Sully13]

look for scientific explinations.

[Itkovian]

Our natural universe - is a description of something.  You cannot say DA is like "our natural universe".  You saying magic can be studied and understood... is a prime example of ascribing "our natural universe" to DA.  There is every possibility that... at it's core... magic cannot be described, even if it can be utilized.  

 

There has been over 10,000 years of civilization in DA (as opposed to our 5,000).  And our codexes STILL say - "We know next to nothing about magic."  

 

A person can drive a car - without being able to repair, build or understand the basic priniciples of a car.  So it "may" be with magic on Thedas - nobody but the creators can actually know.

 

The thing is that the games and other materials seem to imply there's more to the nature of magic than "cannot be described". Furthermore, the game DOES make an attempt at explaining magic: Mages draw their power from the fade, and utilize it to manifest their spells in "reality".

 

So it's entirely possible that there is, in fact, some underlying "mechanism" to magic. Morrigan's own reactions on the topic seems to indicate that a mage with a better understanding of magic can have atheistic belief.

 

As for people not knowing about magic, that's largely irrelevant given the slice of society we get to see. It's normal that magic is mostly an unknown, when we focus on magic-phobic areas and peoples. I imagine there are Magisters in Tevinter with a far deeper understanding of magic and its underpinnings than what we've seen so far... except for Flemeth and Morrigan, of course, who CLEARLY know a lot more but aren't exactly open on the matter.

 

So, yes, it is highly likely that in DA magic can be understood and researched. And I wager that this is precisely what people like Flemeth and Morrigan are doing. Thus, while magic certainly makes atheism more difficult, there is certainly room for characters to view their reality more critically and believe there are "natural" explanations for what they witness (and accordingly reject creator gods as an explanation).

[Super Drone]

 I was using the term "atheist" because I assumed that the Chantry would condemn anyone who doesn't believe in their teachings as such - and/or a heretic. 

 

 

Religion is not a universal binary. Are Muslims atheists because they reject the doctrine of the Pope?

 

There's a word for elves who reject the teaching of the Chantry. The word is Dalish.

[AzureAardvark]

I'm not the only who read this thread as "raping an atheist dalish" on first glance am I? 

 

I saw 'roll playing an atheist danish' and thought 'hmmm, I think most danes are atheists, aren't they?'

And then I got hungry.

[aries1001]

As I recall it, in my 2-3 playthroughs of DA: Origins, I could say to the Chantry Mother in Lothering that I don't believe in the Maker. And later I think it was in Redcliffe, I could say to the Chantry Mother there that I don't believe in religion or I'm not a very religious person. Those comments made them very mad at me.....or rather my elf mage and my dalish and city elf. (who buy the way has one of the finest background stories in a game that I've played). 

On topic:
Is it possible to be an atheist in the DA universe; well yes and no. The Dalish elves tries to reconnect with their long lost faith, scraping together what items they can from the lost history. The dwarfs at Orzammer believes in the ancestors and in the Stone. And I think even the Dalish I've met (in game) revers and respect and worship their ancestors who have gone before them. As others have stated, an atheist is someone who don't believe in any gods at all. Or maybe rather this: The sun exist. We can see it fin the heavens. A atheist  could not pray the Sundisc (RA in ancient Egypt) so that the sundisc would help him to overcome his enemies, or will make sure that the crops will be bountiful and plenty next year. Neither would he throw yarrowsticks to see what the future brings or pray to the Old Gods (in the DA universe) to help him or with something; neither would he or she read the future in chicken livers or tea bags. An atheist would be rational and use logic and value the things he or she can she in the real world.

As we know, in the DA universe, demons are real, the Fade is real and a small percentage of the people (minus dwarves) are born with the ability to use magic e.g. to manipulate what we call atoms or molecules to do their bidding. (at least this is how I view the magic in the DA universe). Thus these magicians or mages will be able to at will (if properly trained) shoot fireballs out of their hands, use lighting spells or use ice spells to further their own goals or for the greater good, either for the society or for the whole of Thedas.

We know this: Magic exist in the DA universe. Mages need lyrium to replenish their ability to use magic in this universe. Magic comes from the Fade. Whenever mages (or magicians) in this universe uses magic, they are at risk being possesed by demons. Also coming from the Fade. This is the reallity in the DA universe. Gods and goddess don't need the factor into this equation. They exist. In the universe. And the Chant of Light by the Chantry? A story  - written and told - if there ever  was one - to hold people - and especially mages - in their place. 

 

So we have this: Demons exist. The fade exist. Mages exist. Magic exist. No gods required. As with Morrigan, who values only what see can and see and is real in the context of the the DA universe, the OP could do the same.

[EmperorKarino]

I'm planning to select a Dalish for my initial playthrough. I want her to definitely be atheist against any Andrastian lore. But I'm confused if atheism in the world of Thedas is considered the same as it is in real life. Would a Dalish who is atheist toward Andrastian lore also be atheist toward Dalish lore? I really don't know how to constuct an idea of "atheism" within Thedas since things like magic and demons are proven to exist. 

 

Feedback?

 

your basically a city elf if you are a dalish who is an atheist.

[ShepardsBane]

As a Dalish elf, you can choose not to believe in what the chantry believes in, but, being a Dalish, means you pretty much already believe in the Elves pantheon, or what have you.

 

The Dalish clan's sole purpose is to do things "the old way" as much as possible, which includes the old religions of the elves. You being in a Dalish clan, and possible 1st to the Keeper(if a mage), and being an atheist, would go against everything they believe in. So, I doubt you'd still have any type of standing in that clan.

[Sully13]

says who?

being a Dalish Athiest is as simple as being a jewish Athiest.

Both are culturea and beliefe systems.

you can be apart of the culture and not the religion.

I always play athiest.

[fizzypop]

I think it's more important to ask WHY - if you're in a world where you know there's an alternate realm, magic, souls, and sapient beings of vast enough power to be considered "gods"... would you be an atheist? 

Being against Andrastian lore isn't atheist - it's being an unbeliever.

 

Being against the traditional Dalish pantheon isn't necessarily being an atheist either.

 

It's like if a Norse person decided to believe in the Egyptian patheon... they're not an atheist to the Norse pantheon.

 

That being said - "what" does your Dalish believe all that extra stuff is?  Just natural science - that explanation doesn't compute because one must annihilate our definition of "natural science" to make these things fit.  They cannot be natural science any more than a door can be a chicken... yes, you can start calling a door a chicken, but you're simply annihilating any use of language if you do so.

 

So what does your Dalish think about spirits, the Fade and magic in particular (the things that are obviously real in Thedas).

You do realize magic does not actually mean there is Gods or God. Demons are their own race and yes a race much more powerful than your own. The maker could actually just be a demon and that's why they have that power. It doesn't mean they created the world or the universe. You are creating a logical fallacy here. Natural science of OUR world doesn't explain Thedas, but this isn't our world. This is theirs. I don't know who said it, but to other people on another planet what we do could easily look like magic to them. If they aren't able to understand electricity for example they might mistaken us for Gods. Does that make us Gods? Nope. In that same vein an alien who is naturally more powerful than us could easily look like a God in our eyes, but that doesn't make them a God. Perception is everything. Magic isn't necessarily not science.