165 réponses à ce sujet

[Sully13]

But is he? yes yhere are implications but no proof.

the blight could be a Thing like virus.

and the fade a the Mist type realm.

[AceHalberd]

Or a believer in other gods who regards events which the Chantry assigns to the maker to the work of other gods.

Sorry if I don't understand what you're saying here, but you mean things like saying the Maker created all, which is at odds with elven creation myths? I never claimed the Chantry's understanding of the Maker was absolute, as they've been confused before; take, for example, that based on what we see, the Andrastian branch is implied to be wrong, whilst the Tevinter church is implied to be correct - Archon Hessarian *did* show Andraste mercy. Additionally, if it's proven the Maker is 'a' god, that doesn't mean it is 'the' god despite what the Chantry insists; in all honesty, I have a theory that the Maker is Fen'Heral, the Dread Wolf. If you think about it for a moment, it's surprising just how much sense that makes; whose to say that anything even Andraste believed of him is true..? This is, of course, assuming it is a god and not just a powerful being. I'm just saying in a world of spirits and magic, it's better to keep an open mind and not apply the understanding of our own world to that one.

[LordParbr]

I'm primarily going off the Temple of the Sacred Ashes bit in DA:O, and the fact Andraste's ashes were able to heal Arl Eamon. It is entirely possible that Andraste merely believed in the Maker and used it as a rallying call for her war, and it's also possible that Andraste was indeed a mage or magically imbued by that 'pure lyrium' Ogrhen comments on if you take him to the chamber. But we do know the Black City definately exists, as seen in the Fade and noted by Corypheus. It's all conjecture, really, but I see no reason why, given the evidence as we currently understand it, to doubt the Maker exists in some format over it not existing at all.

and everything you just cited could easily be explained another way that precludes the Maker. Yes, the Black City exists, but the Chantry could have just added that to the story, since it's pretty much unreachable, so there's no way to say that the Maker doesn't live there. In that case, it's just a matter of convenience. It's like why we tell little kids that Santa Claus lives at the North Pole. Christmas is in winter, which is when it snows here, and kids can't get to the North Pole. So, we tell them Santa lives there because it's always winter there, and they can't go there to see if he actually does. Also, as you note, there are alternative explanations for Andraste's ashes having healing values. The thing is, those just aren't reasons to believe that the Maker exists, because they can be easily explained without invoking the Maker..

[LordParbr]

Sorry if I don't understand what you're saying here, but you mean things like saying the Maker created all, which is at odds with elven creation myths? I never claimed the Chantry's understanding of the Maker was absolute, as they've been confused before; take, for example, that based on what we see, the Andrastian branch is implied to be wrong, whilst the Tevinter church is implied to be correct - Archon Hessarian *did* show Andraste mercy. Additionally, if it's proven the Maker is 'a' god, that doesn't mean it is 'the' god despite what the Chantry insists; in all honesty, I have a theory that the Maker is Fen'Heral, the Dread Wolf. If you think about it for a moment, it's surprising just how much sense that makes; whose to say that anything even Andraste believed of him is true..? This is, of course, assuming it is a god and not just a powerful being. I'm just saying in a world of spirits and magic, it's better to keep an open mind and not apply the understanding of our own world to that one.

but it's even better still not to completely ignore skepticism just because supernatural phenomena exist, especially when there are rational explanations for things attributed to The Maker, even within the context of this world.

[AceHalberd]

but it's even better still not to completely ignore skepticism just because supernatural phenomena exist, especially when there are rational explanations for things attributed to The Maker, even within the context of this world.

I'm not ignoring skeptism; note I said multiple times that whilst I'm sure the Maker exists in some format, I do not know whether that format is as a legitimate god. This is why I said I could never play an Athiest, but could an Agnostic in this setting - there's been actual evidence that corroborates belief in the entity, we just don't know if said entity is actually a god or not, and there's not enough evidence to decide either way.

[LordParbr]

I'm not ignoring skeptism; note I said multiple times that whilst I'm sure the Maker exists in some format, I do not know whether that format is as a legitimate god. This is why I said I could never play an Athiest, but could an Agnostic in this setting - there's been actual evidence that corroborates belief in the entity, we just don't know if said entity is actually a god or not, and there's not enough evidence to decide either way.

well, atheism isn't a stance for or against anything. It just denotes belief in regard to deities.

[Ieldra]

I'm not ignoring skeptism; note I said multiple times that whilst I'm sure the Maker exists in some format, I do not know whether that format is as a legitimate god. This is why I said I could never play an Athiest, but could an Agnostic in this setting - there's been actual evidence that corroborates belief in the entity, we just don't know if said entity is actually a god or not, and there's not enough evidence to decide either way.

Oh really? have seen no such thing. All I have seen is the Chantry's claims. 
if you're talking about what happened to the magisters in the Black City, we don't even know if someone is responsible or if it's a natural phenomenon, and if someone is responsible, it might as well be one of the Old Gods (whose status as deities is also much in doubt). To me, it looks like an accident that was used by the Chantry to support its ideology.

 

As for the question whether any entity is a god, that is an unanswerable question, since there is no agreed-upon definition of what makes a god a god. Rather often, one religion's gods are another's demons.

 

Of course that raises the question of what exactly are you not believing in when you say you're an atheist in Thedas. For my first Inquisitor which I mentioned abovethread, the answer would be "I don't believe in things without sufficient evidence, and I recognize none of the entities of whose existence I know as gods". Note that she hasn't met Flemeth yet, who I count as the only candidate for a "real god" we know of in DA. Even so, since there is no agreed-upon definition and we don't know enough about her, it's easy to disagree.

 

BTW, when I'm saying that, I'm assuming that a "god" is defined mainly by operating on a level that I am insufficiently equipped to understand as a human. Anyone who wants to operates on the same level has to go through some kind of fundamental transformation first, which will make them something other than human, and their thought processes sufficiently alien that they become hard to understand for others who haven't done the same. The Elder One *may* qualify as well, though I have the impression that his ambition is still very much human.

[Catche Jagger]

I've never played an atheist character in the games (though I have played an agnostic) mostly because I could never think of a reasonable explanation of why my character would come to such a conclusion. There's no case for atheism made anywhere in the mainstream culture of Thedas. The only person that we encounter that states outright that there are no gods and makes a case for their beliefs is Morrigan, who lived out in the Wilds away from society her entire life. Seeing this has led me to believe that such beliefs are EXTREMELY rare in Thedas and it would therefore be HIGHLY unlikely that your character would have the opportunity to encounter such ideas.
Agnosticism, however, comes across as a bit more of a reasonable background. Your character may have grown to dislike the various belief systems of Thedas and has decided that they can't be certain of the existence of a god. This belief comes across as far more grounded in the world and what the character would have encountered then definitively stating that there are no gods.
Unless, of course you are an atheist in real life and play the character as yourself. Then my argument doesn't hold much water.
However, these are all my personal beliefs on the matter.

[LordParbr]

I've never played an atheist character in the games (though I have played an agnostic) mostly because I could never think of a reasonable explanation of why my character would come to such a conclusion. There's no case for atheism made anywhere in the mainstream culture of Thedas. The only person that we encounter that states outright that there are no gods and makes a case for their beliefs is Morrigan, who lived out in the Wilds away from society her entire life. Seeing this has led me to believe that such beliefs are EXTREMELY rare in Thedas and it would therefore be HIGHLY unlikely that your character would have the opportunity to encounter such ideas.
Agnosticism, however, comes across as a bit more of a reasonable background. Your character may have grown to dislike the various belief systems of Thedas and has decided that they can't be certain of the existence of a god. This belief comes across as far more grounded in the world and what the character would have encountered then definitively stating that there are no gods.
Unless, of course you are an atheist in real life and play the character as yourself. Then my argument doesn't hold much water.
However, these are all my personal beliefs on the matter.

Atheism isn't the position that there are no gods. It's just a lack of belief in gods

[Ieldra]

Atheism isn't the position that there are no gods. It's just a lack of belief in gods

It usually amounts to the same. If I don't believe in the existence of gods, I am, as a corollary, convinced that there aren't any gods. The difference to the usual believers' positions is that it's not a dogmatic position but a preliminary one, as all positions based on observation ought to be because they're open to be overturned by new evidence. 

[LordParbr]

It usually amounts to the same. If I don't believe in the existence of gods, I am, as a corollary, convinced that there aren't any gods. The difference to the usual believers' positions is that it's not a dogmatic position but a preliminary one, as all positions based on observation ought to be because they're open to be overturned by new evidence. 

Right, but I don't say with certainty that there aren't any, is what I'm saying.

[Ieldra]

Right, but I don't say with certainty that there aren't any, is what I'm saying.

Can you make *any* claim about the world with certainty?

 

I've often thought that what separates me from believers is not religion exactly, but more fundamentally, the idea that you can be certain of anything. There is a quote attributed to Voltaire: "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd", which I find describes my mindset very well.

 

All that you can be is "certain beyond reasonable doubt", which you can be about this in the real world but not in Thedas, since there are entities which may qualify as gods given some plausible definitions of the term, though we don't know enough about them to decide. The Maker, meanwhile, is the type you have to take on faith, and there the situation is like in the real world: the default assumption is that he doesn't exist. Should the Maker ever appear, you've been wrong, but this doesn't change the situation as it is now.

 

So what I say is that my Inquisitor doesn't recognize any entities as gods, by which they mean those entities aren't acknowledged as having any fundamental significance for anyone's lives, except by the power they wield. This would be true of the Maker even should he exist.

[LordParbr]

Can you make *any* claim about the world with certainty?

 

I've often thought that what separates me from believers is not religion exactly, but more fundamentally, the idea that you can be certain of anything. There is a quote attributed to Voltaire: "Doubt is not a pleasant condition, but certainty is absurd", which I find describes my mindset very well.

 

All that you can be is "certain beyond reasonable doubt", which you can be about this in the real world but not in Thedas, since there are entities which may qualify as gods given some plausible definitions of the term, though we don't know enough about them to decide. The Maker, meanwhile, is the type you have to take on faith, and there the situation is like in the real world: the default assumption is that he doesn't exist. Should the Maker ever appear, you've been wrong, but this doesn't change the situation as it is now.

 

So what I say is that my Inquisitor doesn't recognize any entities as gods, by which they mean those entities aren't acknowledged as having any fundamental significance for anyone's lives, except by the power they wield. This would be true of the Maker even should he exist.

well, that's what I'm saying. We don't know, so we don't make an affirmative claim one way or the other

[AceHalberd]

Annnnd incase this thread devolves into a religious debate, let's all just say we believe in different things as doing otherwise will inevidably result in a lock. Also, I'd like to respond to your post Ieldra, but it's exceptionally late where I am, and doubt I could co-ordinate my thoughts sufficiently. I personally believe the game has provided sufficent evidence that the Maker exists in some format (as it's unlikley Andraste woke up one morning and decided to forge the elaborate tale to help her revolution, and that idea had to come from somewhere), but the question is whether or not it's a god (eg. being of immense power able to reform matter and reality on an all encompassing scale). I'm fine if you don't think the Maker has been proven to exist in some state.

[Ieldra]

@Ieldra:  Very similar to my own.  Most notable difference is that my main Inquisitor is actively hostile to Fade entities no matter their title.

Interesting. Out of curiosity: why would he (she?) be that?

[LordParbr]

Annnnd incase this thread devolves into a religious debate, let's all just say we believe in different things as doing otherwise will inevidably result in a lock. Also, I'd like to respond to your post Ieldra, but it's exceptionally late where I am, and doubt I could co-ordinate my thoughts sufficiently. I personally believe the game has provided sufficent evidence that the Maker exists in some format (as it's unlikley Andraste woke up one morning and decided to forge the elaborate tale to help her revolution, and that idea had to come from somewhere), but the question is whether or not it's a god (eg. being of immense power able to reform matter and reality on an all encompassing scale). I'm fine if you don't think the Maker has been proven to exist in some state.

Joan of Arc

[AceHalberd]

Joan of Arc

Except Jeann did not create God or Christianity, so not quite. Andraste is more Lady Jesus.

[mikeymoonshine]

Can you make *any* claim about the world with certainty?

 

You can't, this is why everyone who is honest is agnostic but that doesn't say anything about your beliefs. Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge. It's either the admitting that you do not know for sure either way or the belief that it is impossible to know for sure depending on what definition you use. 

 

Some atheists believe that agnostics are just atheists in denial, while I agree that some are I accept that it is possible to be undecided about whether or not gods exist but still you can be an agnostic as well as being a theist or an atheist. 

 

Still though if a belief conforms with observable reality and is based on scientific theories with predictive capabilities then that's really the best you can get as far as knowledge goes. We have to assume some things to learn anything at all, the trick is to minimize those assumptions. 

[LordParbr]

Except Jeann did not create God or Christianity, so not quite. Andraste is more Lady Jesus.

okay, then I'll cite Jesus, if he existed. Point is, it's happened before.

[mikeymoonshine]

Andraste is sort of an amalgamation of Jesus, Mary, Joan Of Ark and Moses. 

[Sully13]

Andraste is sort of an amalgamation of Jesus, Mary, Joan Of Ark and Moses. 

and Woody Woodpecker.

 

jokeing asside she is an Amalgam of alot more considering jesus himselve was an amalgam of a ton of other people by most accounts. 

Hereklies, persius, Mythras ect.

i admit due to this being a fictional world whith a limited history we cant be sure. 

[Doominike]

No reason you couldn't, I intend to play my dalish mage that way, she'll regard the creators mythology as fables and andrastianism as shemlen BS. The only "gods" we have certain confirmation of are the olds gods of tevinter/archdemons, and we can kick their asses in battle and kill them. Which either means they're just powerful creatures and shouldn't be worshipped or the archdemon was actually a god and people should worship the Warden instead since s/he's more powerful than it

[Sully13]

or the simple fact that they are not perfect.

[Doominike]

I wouldn't worship something I can kick the ass of

[TheKomandorShepard]

I hope i can play one as human because as far we know that non-humans have that option.