165 réponses à ce sujet

[Sully13]

hay i worship Santa and i can kick his jolly ass.

[Doominike]

@Kommandor-> The small backstory paragraph for the warrior and rogue humans says they were raised to work in the chantry regardless of their personal feelings about it, that pretty much confirms that Trevelyan can call BS on the chantry. And the mage will obviously be free to be anti-circle/chantry so they're covered too

 

@Su Lu Pi-> lol. Also, spoilers: there is no Santa

[ComedicSociopathy]

Playing an atheist in Dragon Age is simple if you assume that character doesn't possess the same knowledge of DA's lore as the player does. For instance, knowing about Corypheus and his recollection about cohorts banishment from the Golden City by something or someone. Having that information may very well lead to that character believing in some kind of higher power. Somebody or something had to be responsible for the creation of the Black City since the Fade itself is always being shaped by either spirits, demons or dreamers. And something incredibly powerful had to behind the imprisonment of the Old Gods. 

 

That being said, that alone wouldn't prove the objective existence of a God or Gods. Why? Because the concept of divinity is a social construction that doesn't have consistent attributes. The Old Gods for instance could be called "Gods" by the Tevinter Imperium and be right if their definition for Godhood were beings that simply possessed greater power or knowledge then them. But if they also believed that they were the sole creators of the universe then their title of divinity would be argued and proved false or correct. 

[twincast]

Instead of getting mired in terminology, let me describe what my first planned Inquisitor believes:
 
She does not believe the Maker exists, nor the Creators. She concedes that they *might* exist, but sees no reason to believe it. As a mage, she knows spirits are a fact, and - most likely - extremely powerful entities like those people call the Old Gods, but what is the difference between a god and a super-powerful spirit - or mage, at that? While some such entities may exist and others turn out to exist, one thing they all have in common: there is no reason to give them any moral authority over her life. Her life is her own, not any god's, real or imaginary, doesn't matter. The idea of worship is alien to her mind.

That describes my primary Warden (male elf Circle Mage) to a T, but I'm not sure yet about my secondary Inquisitor (female human mage), although I guess I'll go the same route. Still possible I may go for the run of the mill Andrastian my secondary Warden (female Human Noble warrior) was, though. My dwarves are all manists, although the farther away from the throne of Orzammar they are born, the less practicing they are. And if I ever get around to my female qunari mage Inquisitor... I don't know; she may surprise me yet.
 

I mean, and I sort of got the impression that a LOT of people in Thedas think the way my Hawkes did. A lot of people seem to think that the Maker is never going to return to Thedas, no matter what humanity does. But again, I don't know if there's a really good real-world analog to "believes in an absent god, but also believes that worship is irrelevant and never going to accomplish anything."

Well, closest thing I can think of is that Christianity started out as one of many apocalyptic Jewish sects expecting the end of the world to be right around the corner, and while the official doctrines still talk about Kingdom Come, after two thousand years your average Christian no longer believes this will ever happen, let alone in their own lifetime, and is content with a promise of Heaven not on Earth after death.
 

My Dalish will be similar. 
 
He acknowledges the lore behind the creators but he chooses not put his faith into them. He believes the creators have forsaken the elven race into the state they are now, so why should he praise them?

Now that potentially sounds like my primary Inquisitor (male elf rogue), but I'm not quite sure yet... then again, to believably accept Cole as his ghostly little brother as planned, he can't really be average Joe Dalish, anyway.
 

*WARNING: If you are bored by, or sensitive to theological discourse, turn back*

Spoiler

That's actually a bit of a tricky issue to me, actually. If you read the Old Testament, God comes across downright schizophrenic sometimes. It(I use neutral pronouns for the Judeo-Christian god, because, honestly, sex/gender would have no meaning in regard to such a being) keeps referring to "us" and "we." Now, a lot of Christian/Jews like to say, in response to that, that's just God invoking the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; which, in Judeo-Christian theology is all one being). The problem there, is the way it says things. Quite often, God, in The Old Testament, can definitely be interpretted as speaking to the existence of other gods. In fact, the very existence of a commandment saying not to worship other gods just seems redundant if there is only 1. In my interpretation, the Bible does continually make reference to there being other gods beside Yahweh, but that particular god tells its subjects, not that only 1 god exists, but that there is only 1 so far as the Jews are concerned. Just, don't worship the others. I am your god, so to speak.

Of course, I'm not alone in believing that the Bible does occasionally make reference to the existence of other gods aside from ol' Yahweh.

So, in that way, the similarities aren't even really that far off either.

Sorry, even though I'm, personally, an atheist, theology and mythology interest me.

Well, yeah, the Old Testament, randomly cobbled together as it is, is generally accepted by scientists to be a, well, testament of the gradual change from polytheism to monotheism in Judea, barely touching either the start or the end point of that development.
 

As for the question whether any entity is a god, that is an unanswerable question, since there is no agreed-upon definition of what makes a god a god. Rather often, one religion's gods are another's demons.
 
Of course that raises the question of what exactly are you not believing in when you say you're an atheist in Thedas. For my first Inquisitor which I mentioned abovethread, the answer would be "I don't believe in things without sufficient evidence, and I recognize none of the entities of whose existence I know as gods". Note that she hasn't met Flemeth yet, who I count as the only candidate for a "real god" we know of in DA. Even so, since there is no agreed-upon definition and we don't know enough about her, it's easy to disagree.
 
BTW, when I'm saying that, I'm assuming that a "god" is defined mainly by operating on a level that I am insufficiently equipped to understand as a human. Anyone who wants to operates on the same level has to go through some kind of fundamental transformation first, which will make them something other than human, and their thought processes sufficiently alien that they become hard to understand for others who haven't done the same. The Elder One *may* qualify as well, though I have the impression that his ambition is still very much human.

I actually have a pretty clear definition (for fantasy settings, but IMO it works pretty well for most RL mythologies as well):
Gods are those beings directly related to the creation of the world, those of 100% blood relation to such beings (50 % +/- 49 pp being demigods) and those beings (usually originally demigods) elevated to the same level by members of any of the three groups.
"Apotheosis" through some magic ritual or device (or simply accumulating power like crazy) on the other hand would make that act/being very much subject to that world's laws of nature and therefore not a true deity.
 

You can't, this is why everyone who is honest is agnostic but that doesn't say anything about your beliefs. Agnosticism is a statement of knowledge. It's either the admitting that you do not know for sure either way or the belief that it is impossible to know for sure depending on what definition you use. 
 
Some atheists believe that agnostics are just atheists in denial, while I agree that some are I accept that it is possible to be undecided about whether or not gods exist but still you can be an agnostic as well as being a theist or an atheist. 
 
Still though if a belief conforms with observable reality and is based on scientific theories with predictive capabilities then that's really the best you can get as far as knowledge goes. We have to assume some things to learn anything at all, the trick is to minimize those assumptions.

Both "agnostic" and "atheist" are in general usage short-hand for what is properly described as agnostic atheist, with minor differences in nuance at most. The discovery of the scientific method that you can't prove a negative eliminated most gnostic atheists (no matter how much "atheists"-hating self-proclaimed "agnostics" may like to claim otherwise), provided they ever even existed in notable numbers to begin with, the masses whose contact with religion is limited to weddings, funerals etc. and having a denomination recorded in their passport because "That's just what you do, I don't know ... better to be save than sorry." are IMHO best described as agnostic theists, and gnostic theists are those "true believers" that weird me out at best and scare the **** out of me at worst.

[berrieh]

What constitutes a God exactly? There are many powerful forces/figures in Thedas that are real or potential but what would actually make them Gods? It has to involve world-creation, I guess? It's confusing to me because Gods in human history don't always create the world. Some are just immortal beings, many of whom can still be tricked or killed, which certainly seems probable in Thedas (many Spirits/Demons seem immortal, unless actively killed). 

 

As a Dalish elf, you can choose not to believe in what the chantry believes in, but, being a Dalish, means you pretty much already believe in the Elves pantheon, or what have you.

 

The Dalish clan's sole purpose is to do things "the old way" as much as possible, which includes the old religions of the elves. You being in a Dalish clan, and possible 1st to the Keeper(if a mage), and being an atheist, would go against everything they believe in. So, I doubt you'd still have any type of standing in that clan.

 

But.... you left.... This could theoretically be the reason if you never got the Elven Gods. 

 

Also it's not as though not believing in the Elven Gods necessarily means telling your Clan you don't really believe. Lots of people follow a culture, even a religion, and don't go around admitting that they don't actually believe. They do it because of family, culture, community. Because it's expected. Or even because they're afraid to admit - sometimes even to themselves - what they believe. 

 

I know others pointed out the difference between religion and cultural, even using a Jewish comparison, and that's good too, but I wouldn't rule out the whole "simply never spoke up about thinking those Elven Gods were nonsense" POV. 

 

Yuck.

This makes Leliana come off as patronizing and snotty.

 

I mean, Morrigan taunts Andrastians (maybe even Leliana) about religion too, IIRC. But while I like her, I find Leliana pretty patronizing and single-minded when it comes to Andraste/the Chantry. It's fine; it makes her a better character. But she's definitely kind of in your face about it. 

[Doominike]

My assumption is that since Leliana sees the chantry as having saved her from her old life she overtly manifests her faith because she's trying to convince herself, andrastianism is her metaphorical lifebuoy and she's clinging to it

[AceHalberd]

But.... you left....

What? No you didn't: You're at the conclave as a spy on behalf of the Keeper/your Clan, and they even send a letter of angry protest to the Inquisition when they learn you are the sole survivor as they still believe you're being held prisoner by them.

[berrieh]

What? No you didn't: You're at the conclave as a spy on behalf of the Keeper/your Clan, and they even send a letter of angry protest to the Inquisition when they learn you are the sole survivor as they still believe you're being held prisoner by them.

 

Fair enough. I more meant you were more free to develop your own ideas without the Clan around. 

[Doominike]

The creators myth is really more important as cultural folklore than for faith/worship anyway, you can be a perfectly fine First or Keeper without actually believing it as fact

[AceHalberd]

The creators myth is really more important as cultural folklore than for faith/worship anyway, you can be a perfectly fine First or Keeper without actually believing it as fact

I would strongly disagree with that to be honest; we've never come across an un-believing Dalish elf, unless you make that choice as the Warden yourself. Everyone talks about the gods of their pantheon in a very real sense; some of it is no doubt cultural, but but there is a dogma, and they do adhere to it, often thanking, praising and doing rituals for the benefit of the gods.

[Doominike]

Maybe, or they could just do the rituals because it's part of the culture they're trying to keep alive

[n7stormrunner]

I would strongly disagree with that to be honest; we've never come across an un-believing Dalish elf, unless you make that choice as the Warden yourself. Everyone talks about the gods of their pantheon in a very real sense; some of it is no doubt cultural, but but there is a dogma, and they do adhere to it, often thanking, praising and doing rituals for the benefit of the gods.

 

 

this and I would add that wanting to rp a atheist dalish is kinda like wanting to be a non catholic pope.

you are missing some rather key facts about what you're asking to be.

 

 

atheist elf sure but part of being dalish is worshiping the the gods of your people. otherwise your a knife ear playing in the woods.

[Doominike]

For the same reason one would want to play a non-andrastian human or a dwarf who thinks "the Stone" is rubbish

[Sully13]

could simply view the folklore as sutch.

[His Name was HYR!!]

 Who else read "Raping An Atheist Dalish" - ?

[Sully13]

Every one.

[Corto81]

 
Both "agnostic" and "atheist" are in general usage short-hand for what is properly described as agnostic atheist, with minor differences in nuance at most. The discovery of the scientific method that you can't prove a negative eliminated most gnostic atheists (no matter how much "atheists"-hating self-proclaimed "agnostics" may like to claim otherwise), provided they ever even existed in notable numbers to begin with, the masses whose contact with religion is limited to weddings, funerals etc. and having a denomination recorded in their passport because "That's just what you do, I don't know ... better to be save than sorry." are IMHO best described as agnostic theists, and gnostic theists are those "true believers" that weird me out at best and scare the **** out of me at worst.

 

Sorry for the complete derailment of the thread here, just wanted to answer to this as someone who's read a LOT on the subject and been in a lot of debates.

 

No agnostic or atheist can be described as a theist of any sort.

 

Agnostics and atheists - at least the ones I know - don't go to church for THEIR weddings etc. - but do go to church for the wedding of their friends - why wouldn't they.

They do not believe that God exists, at least as far as logic, reason and science has told so far - and they live their life like it.

And they especially do no believe in a personal God. With 140 billion galaxies in the universe, we think that God made us on this one spec of space dust and we are the ONLY thing that matters and the almighty creator listens to our prayers etc.?

(just to put things into perspective, if Earth was the size of a pea, and the entire Solar system scaled down to its size, Pluto would be 25 KILOMETERS away.

Space is HUGE beyond our understanding. Human mind is not used to such distances.)

 

Point is, no,  atheists and agnostics are NOT gnostic theists.

 

If you insist of pinning them close to a religiious point of view, the closest would be "deist".

Those who don't believe there's a personal God, but they do believe there is some power or energy out there.

Not that it necessarily gives a crap about you, but it's there.

Theists, by definition, believe in the personal God.

No agnostic or atheist believes that.

[Sully13]

Thiests believe in a religious iconogrophy. god ect 

Agnotics tent to simply not sure in what to believe but tend lean toward Atheism

Athiests are skeptical or do not believe that whitch has not been proven whith evedence.

[herkles]

Theists, by definition, believe in the personal God.

uhm, I am a polytheist, I practice hellenismos or greek polytheism. I tend to view the divine rather different from monotheists. My gods are certainly not the Abhramic god, nor do I believe in any sort of monotheistic god. I have numerous deities, some which I am closer to then others. Even the ones that I am closer to is much more of a respectful friendship then the sort of personal view that I have heard monotheists talk about.

 

Keep in mind there are other theists out there besides monotheists. 

 

 

Could there be any scenario in which a Dalish has doubts about their folklore?

I would be more curious if there were not dalish who had doubts about their folklore. Keep in mind they must peice together their own history and lore. So one who may question, "is this authentic elven belief" would not be out of place.  Perhaps your elf adapts a view similar to how I, a greek polytheists, view my own myths.

 

Which is that they are stories, and stories can be exaggerated and changed. The myths tell the stories of the gods and goddess and heroes. But they are stories created by men, so they never will be perfect, not to mention poets like to exaggerate. That doesn't mean the myths are worthless, they totally are not, just that one should not take them literally like some other theists do with their works. They can hold the values, and some values are important, but others are values that are not and the stories can change; which is what happened within antiquity in regards to the myths. 

 

 

Your dalish might question things, while still wondering what is proper elven belief. You might believe in the creators, but perhaps as you explore, and IIRC we get to visit ancient elven places IG, then perhaps you change your beliefs and think, hmm perhaps keeper got it wrong it is actually blah blah..

 

I hope that helps you

[Corto81]

uhm, I am a polytheist, I practice hellenismos or greek polytheism. I tend to view the divine rather different from monotheists. My gods are certainly not the Abhramic god, nor do I believe in any sort of monotheistic god. I have numerous deities, some which I am closer to then others. Even the ones that I am closer to is much more of a respectful friendship then the sort of personal view that I have heard monotheists talk about.

 

Keep in mind there are other theists out there besides monotheists. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Whether you believe in one or more gods is irrelevant, by definition, theists believe in personal and/or personilized gods.

That belief includes that god or gods in some way impact the universe and the world and humans personally.

 

Deists believe that god or a force exists as a prime mover in the universe, but does not (even if it could) mess and temper with the world we know.

[Ieldra]

Most of my Hawkes (including my canon Hawke) adhered to a belief system that doesn't really have a good term to describe it. They definitely believe that the Maker (or something) exists and created the world, but most of my characters in Thedas also believe that it is largely irrelevant to worship a deity who is completely and wholly absent.

 

It isn't the same thing as atheism or agnosticism, but it doesn't exactly have a real-world analog (of which I'm aware, in any case.) 

It's called Deism

 

(Ah, I see someone already mentioned it)

[Ieldra]

 Who else read "Raping An Atheist Dalish" - ?

About everyone on first scanning the thread title I guess. Very unfortunate use of an abbreviation, OP.

[berrieh]

I would strongly disagree with that to be honest; we've never come across an un-believing Dalish elf, unless you make that choice as the Warden yourself. Everyone talks about the gods of their pantheon in a very real sense; some of it is no doubt cultural, but but there is a dogma, and they do adhere to it, often thanking, praising and doing rituals for the benefit of the gods.

 

How many Dalish elves have we really gotten to know? I can only think of Velanna (who refers to the stories of the Elven Gods occasionally but not with any particular reverence - just as stories that seem to be fables), Merril (who tells of the Dread Wolf but never speaks of any of the Gods she actually worships as far as I can tell), and Ariane, who I can't remember. None of them seem particularly religious to me. Then again maybe Merrill was - I can only stand her in small doses so certainly didn't hear all her banter. 

 

this and I would add that wanting to rp a atheist dalish is kinda like wanting to be a non catholic pope.

you are missing some rather key facts about what you're asking to be.

 

 

atheist elf sure but part of being dalish is worshiping the the gods of your people. otherwise your a knife ear playing in the woods.

 

I don't think so. It's more like being a Jewish person who doesn't believe in God or isn't sure; I know many of those. (Heck, I know Catholics who fit the bill, but Jewish was brought up in the thread, and it's a better analogy.) The culture of Judaism persists, especially because of past persecution, but that doesn't mean everyone really feels the resonance of the theological aspects. 

 

Theists, by definition, believe in the personal God.

No agnostic or atheist believes that.

 

Your post is absolutely right. I just wanted to point out that "personal God" means "personified God" really; the connotation of "personal" is what I think threw people off when talking about polytheism. Polytheism absolutely requires personified Gods.