54 réponses à ce sujet

[Drone223]

I didn't mod anything, being on a console or not has nothing to do with it. I just imported a Shep with nearly full paragon and renegade bars in ME1. How that gives me a lot of extra options to deviate from a 'pure morality' path is explained in the post.

I don't take non-import games seriously

You may not mod the paragon/renegade bars but others do. The fact that people would resort to modding in order to max out paragon/renegade bars indicate there is a problem with both the morality system and dialogue wheel in ME2.

[Sanunes]

Only things that ME3 failed more at is lack of options and a wee bit too much 'guidance' (autodialogue) of how Shepard acts.

 

But the outcomes of the options themselves were more pronounced and imo interesting than ME1-ME2. Especially ME1, where most options would essentially be the same thing.

 

That is how I feel as well.  There were some times in ME2 that the center option was something I picked, but it never came across to me as something that was "balanced" just because there was a third option that didn't give Paragon/Renegade points.  It always felt like a Sure, Whatever, Screw You choice that basically always advanced the story to the save outcome and only at the end of each conversation was there a chance it might be a distinct branch in dialogue.

 

The biggest mistake I think they made with the Dialogue is not giving players that option to turn off auto-dialogue.  I did notice it, but most of the time I really didn't care for the conversation flowed the way I wanted it to, but I can understand people that wanted full control of what their character said as well.

 

Edit:

 

Personally, I am hoping that since there is a new trilogy happening with the next game there is a major overhaul to the morality system for a lot of the issues I see people talking the conversation seems to have more to do with morality then having three options that lead to the exact same dialogue option.

Modifié par Sanunes, 15 novembre 2014 - 01:54 .

[lastpawn]

I thought the ME3 "wheel" was all right. It was fine, adequate. I say this despite ME1 being my favorite of the series. Simply having more options isn't enough -- you need content.

 

In any case, the whole reputation system in ME3 was far superior to being punished for mixing Paragon and Renegade options.

 

In the future, I'd like to see not just paragon/renegade, but other types of options on the table, such as the Engineer interrupt from Omega, for example.

[Han Shot First]

Only things that ME3 failed more at is lack of options and a wee bit too much 'guidance' (autodialogue) of how Shepard acts.

 

But the outcomes of the options themselves were more pronounced and imo interesting than ME1-ME2. Especially ME1, where most options would essentially be the same thing.

 

I agree. By far Mass Effect 3 had the best companion dialogue in the three games, because characters were much more animated and real. They weren't standing around ramrod stiff like in Mass Effect 1 and the dialogue had more emotional content than in previous games.

 

The bigger issue was with autodialogue where sometimes Shepard was given a canon opinion on things that the player couldn't influence. Autodialogue should just be reserved for more neutral dialogue, or for voicing opinions that would never be out of character for any version of the protagonist. An example of that would be a Grey Warden protagonist from the DA series having autodialogue about the darkspawn needing to be eradicated. 

[katamuro]

I personally think that they wanted to add more urgency, to make the conflict more apparent along with how it affects people, so shepard for example is not in a state to have the middle option instead shepard is either paragon or renegade. 

And another thing is that they tried to steer the character interaction a bit more, both through the dialogues you can't control and the ones you overhear. They tried to make a more consistent character because for example in both ME1 and ME2 my femshep was completely off the rails, because I simply could not help myself but choose the most amusing options. Male shep doesn't have that as much because the voice acting does not differ as much for both options. 

[DarkKnightHolmes]

I actually considered a dialogue wheel showing up in ME3 to be a blessing. Autodialogue Shepard couldn't shut up. Especially when it came to Earth, Liara or his angst about Thessia.

 

I personally thought ME2 did it best. ME1 gave you 3 dialogue options but somehow had the same line uttered no matter what choice you took and ME3 never went above 2 choices unless there was a persuade/intimidate at the end. Also I guess Shepard got tired of asking questions because I don't remember their being any investigate options in ME3.The only flaw in ME2 was that you had to be one sided or you'd lose all persuade and intimidate options.

 

Hopefully ME4 scraps the paragon/renegade system.

[Drone223]

I actually considered a dialogue wheel showing up in ME3 to be a blessing. Autodialogue Shepard couldn't shut up. Especially when it came to Earth, Liara or his angst about Thessia.

 

I personally thought ME2 did it best. ME1 gave you 3 dialogue options but somehow had the same line uttered no matter what choice you took and ME3 never went above 2 choices unless there was a persuade/intimidate at the end. The only flaw in ME2 was that you had to be one sided or you'd lose all persuade and intimidate options. Hopefully ME4 scraps the paragon/renegade system.

I'd say that's a major flaw with the dialogue wheel in ME2 since it limited dialogue to the top/bottom right options in order to use the charm/intimidate options in certain conversations.

 

P.S I agree that the molarity system should be dumped completely and replaced with a friend/rival system like DA.

[Karlone123]

The weirdest thing about the dialog wheel is to see the ME team, who invented it, slowly stripping it of content and while the DA team was trying to improve and develop it by adding new stuff through tone and icons.

 

This fazed me a bit seeing as ME used the dialogue wheel first. then slowly faded into obsecurity in favour of Shepard auto-dialogue, and not really being improved in any way Just lessened which made me disappointed as ME3 dialogue could wheel could have had more interactive features instead of being reduced.

[lastpawn]

P.S I agree that the molarity (morality?) system should be dumped completely and replaced with a friend/rival system like DA.

 

I disagree. Friend/rival system in DA2 has the same problem as paragon/renegade -- it penalizes normal human interactions that involve a combination of factors like friendliness and rivalry.

 

In DA2, if you're not all the way friendly, or all the way a rival, tough luck. It all but forces one-sided interactions by penalizing mixed approaches.

[Drone223]

I disagree. Friend/rival system in DA2 has the same problem as paragon/renegade -- it penalizes normal human interactions that involve a combination of factors like friendliness and rivalry.

 

In DA2, if you're not all the way friendly, or all the way a rival, tough luck. It all but forces one-sided interactions by penalizing mixed approaches.

Actually something like that would be a good thing since NPC's won't always agree with the PC and would help them feel more like individuals.

[Vazgen]

Actually something like that would be a good thing since NPC's won't always agree with the PC and would help them feel more like individuals.

Paragon/renegade system is fine, but it needs improvement. They basically need to add more reactivity to the options and bring neutral option back. So if you say something like that line in LotSB ("Taking a hostage? Just like an asari. You girls should stick to dancing. Play to your strengths, you know.") you should lose some friendship score from Liara. Liara says during the capsule scene for a Renegade Shepard "While I did not always agreed with his decisions, I always respected them. And it was a privilege to know him". Make her actually disagree with your decisions in the game and you'll have a much better system.

It would not have worked for the trilogy since Shepard is a soldier and he can always pull rank on her, but next Mass Effect has the potential to implement this.

[nallepuh86]

The me 2 dialog wheel was utterly trash. Full of meaningless pseudo choices. Whats point in any choices if they dont affect anything?

 

This is why 3 dialog was better, because it was honest.

[Display Name Owner]

 

 

I know there's nothing behind it, but I found it funny that "Waiting for the right woman" is in the bottom right.

 

"As a heterosexual male, I'm attracted to women." +2 Renegade points.

 

Anyway, ME1 often had multiple choices that gave exactly the same line of dialogue. I don't remember that being the case in ME2, so I guess it was the best example. Wouldn't have minded some more neutral choices in ME3 since there are times neither the nice or mean option really felt right, but then like Psychevore said there's a lot more dialogue in ME3 overall, so it's understandable that Shep's options would get cut down here or there. That said, a few middle of the road options in a few places wouldn't have gone amiss.

[SNascimento]

Did that choice give renegade points?

[Display Name Owner]

Did that choice give renegade points?

 

No, I just thought it was funny that it went in the same place on the wheel where the renegade line usually goes.

[Vazgen]

No, I just thought it was funny that it went in the same place on the wheel where the renegade line usually goes.

It's actually a renegade option, since it assumes you pursued relationship with Cortez prior to that point. It's like rejecting Ashley on her Citadel date after trying to romance her before. 

[cap and gown]

No, I just thought it was funny that it went in the same place on the wheel where the renegade line usually goes.

 

Yet another reason to get rid of the whole ren/para system. We have become perfect little Skinner Rats trained by the BW master to always pick upper or lower instead of what we think really belongs to a particular character.

[SNascimento]

Yet another reason to get rid of the whole ren/para system. We have become perfect little Skinner Rats trained by the BW master to always pick upper or lower instead of what we think really belongs to a particular character.

I don't think that's the case. Not for me, not for many other people I'm sure. You pick what you think is right, the renagade and paragon system, especially in ME3, are only there as a reference. 

[Vazgen]

Yet another reason to get rid of the whole ren/para system. We have become perfect little Skinner Rats trained by the BW master to always pick upper or lower instead of what we think really belongs to a particular character.

That's why I suggested randomizing paragon/renegade choices in the dialogue wheel. Most likely won't happen, they'll even put icons to "help" people make a choice

[saMoorai]

Honestly, the amount of Auto Dialogue, and lack of dialogue options are the main reasons I dislike the third game. 

[Display Name Owner]

It's actually a renegade option, since it assumes you pursued relationship with Cortez prior to that point. It's like rejecting Ashley on her Citadel date after trying to romance her before. 

 

Oh, that is pretty harsh then. So you can literally RP a heterosexual Shepard who trolls Cortez for... fun, I guess?

 

Yet another reason to get rid of the whole ren/para system. We have become perfect little Skinner Rats trained by the BW master to always pick upper or lower instead of what we think really belongs to a particular character.

 

It strangely took me a while playing ME1 to clock on to the fact that upper right is nice and lower is mean. Before that I remember actually putting in a lot more thought into what Shep actually said rather than whether I felt like being polite or not. Have to admit it was a bit more interesting that way.

[Revan Reborn]

Honestly, the amount of Auto Dialogue, and lack of dialogue options are the main reasons I dislike the third game. 

I believe the appropriate phrase is quality > quantity. ME1 by far had the most "options" and yet many of them were repeats or just plain irrelevant. ME2 had less dialogue choices, but added in interrupts to change the pacing and style of storytelling. Overall ME3 still had a lot of options in conversations with the "[Investigate]" option while closing a lot of loose ends and providing us with a lot of closure and explanations. I actually felt ME3's execution was the most polished and consistent. I would have preferred more interrupts though as they seemed to be few and far between.

[Vazgen]

I didn't like Zaeed-style dialogue in ME3 and I don't like robot conversations in DA:I. Bioware should step back from those and have interactive cinematic dialogue scenes instead. 

Humans usually accompany their words with gestures, they are present in cutscenes too. When you remove those, the conversation becomes stiff and not very realistic.

I think ME3 dialogue (with dialogue wheel) was quite fitting and well-implemented. The problem with it is that it featured too much autodialogue and it resonated badly with people who roleplayed their characters differently throughout the trilogy. If ME3 was a standalone game that would've worked much better. They have a chance with ME:Next, I believe we'll see much more extensive dialogue wheel in that game

[Revan Reborn]

I didn't like Zaeed-style dialogue in ME3 and I don't like robot conversations in DA:I. Bioware should step back from those and have interactive cinematic dialogue scenes instead. 

Humans usually accompany their words with gestures, they are present in cutscenes too. When you remove those, the conversation becomes stiff and not very realistic.

I think ME3 dialogue (with dialogue wheel) was quite fitting and well-implemented. The problem with it is that it featured too much autodialogue and it resonated badly with people who roleplayed their characters differently throughout the trilogy. If ME3 was a standalone game that would've worked much better. They have a chance with ME:Next, I believe we'll see much more extensive dialogue wheel in that game

Cinematic development is costly and inefficient. BioWare games are only getting larger, and it would not have been feasible or practical for them to have cut scenes for every minute conversation you might have with a NPC in the game. The main benefit to the Skyrim approach to storytelling is you can end it and disengage a lot easier without having to go through the same repeats and loops of coding to finish a conversation. DAI has come up with an ingenious way of cutting down on how often companions repeat themselves as to not make dialogue seem silly and not reactive.

 

Shepard was already a pre-established character and the story for the trilogy was determined before ME1 was released. While the ME trilogy is my favorite BioWare series, it's also the worst from a role playing perspective because you don't really control Shepard or his choices in any of the games. All you can control is gender, appearance, and personality (renegade/paragon). It's far more restricting than KotOR or DAO because of how established Shepard is before you meet him.

 

Honestly, MENext is likely going to follow suit after DAI. BioWare already explained our protagonist will start out as an unknown, like the Inquisitor, so we will build his legend rather than already having it. I also believe the dialogue wheel will be much more like DAI where paragon/renegade is removed for a wide variety of potential choices that give us more control over our character. DAI has the compassionate/tough guy/diplomatic/aggressive/neutral to provide a wide array of options. I would not expect more cinematic dialogue though, especially for less relevant conversations, as MENext will likely be much larger than DAI in scope and ambition. You should only really expect cinematics for major side quests and the main story. Anything else will likely be from the in-game perspective.

[Vazgen]

Cinematic development is costly and inefficient. BioWare games are only getting larger, and it would not have been feasible or practical for them to have cut scenes for every minute conversation you might have with a NPC in the game. The main benefit to the Skyrim approach to storytelling is you can end it and disengage a lot easier without having to go through the same repeats and loops of coding to finish a conversation. DAI has come up with an ingenious way of cutting down on how often companions repeat themselves as to not make dialogue seem silly and not reactive.

 

Shepard was already a pre-established character and the story for the trilogy was determined before ME1 was released. While the ME trilogy is my favorite BioWare series, it's also the worst from a role playing perspective because you don't really control Shepard or his choices in any of the games. All you can control is gender, appearance, and personality (renegade/paragon). It's far more restricting than KotOR or DAO because of how established Shepard is before you meet him.

 

Honestly, MENext is likely going to follow suit after DAI. BioWare already explained our protagonist will start out as an unknown, like the Inquisitor, so we will build his legend rather than already having it. I also believe the dialogue wheel will be much more like DAI where paragon/renegade is removed for a wide variety of potential choices that give us more control over our character. DAI has the compassionate/tough guy/diplomatic/aggressive/neutral to provide a wide array of options. I would not expect more cinematic dialogue though, especially for less relevant conversations, as MENext will likely be much larger than DAI in scope and ambition. You should only really expect cinematics for major side quests and the main story. Anything else will likely be from the in-game perspective.

I don't expect them to make a cinematic approach for all the lesser conversations. I just hope for more variety in animations, camera angles and more interactivity in Inquisition-style dialogues. Take, for example this

Changing camera angles during the conversation and giving more animations to the characters would've make it a lot better IMO. Notice, how in Skyrim you have some control over the camera movement during dialogue scenes. 

The bigger the game gets, the more we'll see such resource-saving patterns. Personally, I would've preferred something of the size of ME3 but with well-designed, interactive and cinematic dialogues than to have Skyrim in space. 

To note, I liked Skyrim a lot, though not for the dialogues or character interactions but for the freedom it gives to the player. Bioware's strong points are the dialogue, characters and stories though, so they better capitalize on that, instead of reinventing the wheel