14 réponses à ce sujet

[Revan Reborn]

Dragon Age Inquisition has certainly raised standards, with various points of attack, dragons simulating injury when heavily damaged, as well as fleeing the battlefield if they sustain too much damage. We even have set pieces where parts of the environment will be destroyed and how dragons interact with the world. This is all well and good, but dragon encounters are still less than amazing.

 

Skyrim wasn't perfect, but I felt dragon fights were incredible (at least for a while) and kept the game interesting. Part of this is because Skyrim is a FPRPG with twitch-based combat, but also because encounters were much more organic, happening anywhere, and not just pre-determined events like they will be in Dragon Age Inquisition. In a sense, I believe it would be interesting if dragons had more flexibility and could appear and disappear more at will, rather than showing up based on what BioWare has coded.

 

Does anyone else have thoughts on providing more engaging and epic dragon fights? I think part of the issue is that dragons are also so massive that it's difficult to make these encounters seem fun without it coming across as clunky and somewhat silly. How can we make dragons the true alpha predators they should be and not just some mediocre encounter that probably will get old after a few kills?

[lovecraftiangod]

the dragons in skyrim were a joke after awhile you could kill most of them in less than a minute.

[Revan Reborn]

the dragons in skyrim were a joke after awhile you could kill most of them in less than a minute.

This is a rather moot point as everything could be killed in less than a minute if you completely maxed out your character in Skyrim... The point is the philosophy and goals behind the dragon encounter. BGS had an incredibly innovative and ambitious approach that was fresh, new, and fun. It became repetitive after a time and lost its appeal, but it certainly was more interesting than any dragon fight in Dragon Age. The Archdemon was probably the most compelling fight, and even that was rather boring and repetitive. I'd like for BioWare to make dragons seem like actual beasts that are unpredictable rather than being typical RPG mechanics doing the same predictable moves.

[Duelist]

I'm quite interested in your thoughts, Revan.

As a fan of Musashi's work, a game mechanic akin to injuring the corners is a step in the right direction for me.

Personally I would like to see them attack from the sky more often to emphasize the need to cripple them first but as the game is not out yet, this may or may not actually happen.

[MzHyde]

You know, I much prefer DA's approach to dragon encounters than Skyrim's. Yes, the dragons in DA:Origins and DA:2 were bland in every way, but so were Skyrim's. Neither really did it better if you ask me, just different.

 

As you stated, the dragons will look and behave more organic in DA:I. Each and every high dragon is going to be unique this time around each having their own breath attacks and appearances. There may be other differences as well, like resistances and such, but I don't know everything about the dragons in Inquisition and won't pretend to. This in itself is already such a huge improvement. I mean, have you seen them? They are awesome to look at! Dragons in Skyrim were just designed in a completely different way. There were differences between dragons, but this was based on the scaling of the dragons encountered. The dragons in Inquisition won't scale to the player. Their levels are fixed so that wouldn't have been possible. I think having their levels fixed will actually help to make the dragons feel like more of a threat, too. I certainly don't expect the awkwardness that is discovering you can pwn a dragon only to be clobbered by a giant! I also don't expect said giant to be able to send me flying to the moon.

 

I'll admit, I like having the dragons stick to their own territories. It makes sense to me that they'd have nests in the world and that they'd be territorial to a deadly degree. I fail to see how this is any less "organic" than Skyrim's dragon encounters, especially when they could be roasting a kid, only for the brat to not give a single you know what. Dragons couldn't destroy any part of the environment in Skyrim either, which really distracted me at times. It was like, ok, that dragon totally roasted that building, yet nothing happened..........all righty.

 

The dragons in Skyrim really started to just annoy me after a while. I swear, it got to a point I couldn't hardly fast travel in peace. Every time I tried, there one was just waiting for me. Try to go elsewhere, the stalker drago 1.0 frickin followed me there! There was nothing engaging about it, and it sure didn't take long for the initial excitement to wear off. They felt too common, like rats or fleas. I swear they were giant, scaly, flying trolls.

 

As per what I'd like to see DA do with dragons in the future, I can only really think of two other things I'd like them to implement. First, please, let me attack the wings. It makes no sense to let me attack it's limbs and not the wings. I mean, you don't want it to be able to fly away now, do you? Speaking of which, second, have them try to flee when too badly injured. I noticed in the vids that while dragons may try to reposition themselves if injured, they don't really run away altogether. They still come back to finish the fight even if they do go into the air for a moment. I want it to literally attempt to escape my wrath! Flee in terror oh mighty beast! Cower at my awesome savagery and might! Experience true terror at my hands! Muhahaha!!!!

[Silcron]

I have to agree that dragons in skyrim are a joke. The idea of them being able to appear anywhere is good, but the dragons themselves are not imposing. "Oh, another dragon. Meh, I don't need dragon souls." After the first few that's basically it in skyrim, they're dragon souls storages, do you want dragon souls or not?

DA:I may have them scripted to appear in specific places but at least they're working on making the fights memorable, which for a story heavy game makes sense.

I compare all dragon fights to the one with the red dragon in Dragon's Dogma. Yes, it's scripted but it's epic, engaging, fun and it makes sense (for the most part, it doesn't explain how you survive a several kylometres fall but while you're in the middle of it you don't care), explaining why the dragon isn't flying around anymore (it starts in a cave, once he gets out he just does fly-bys trying to burn you, staying out of reach from melee and moving too fast for range for the most part). It also helped that you could actually climb up on the dragon whenever he was close enough.

As far as DA:I's dragon fights go they seem to be better. I'm just asking myself why can't we shoot the wings so they don't fly around. I'm pretty sure one of my priorities would be to take his flying advantage.

[MzHyde]

As far as DA:I's dragon fights go they seem to be better. I'm just asking myself why can't we shoot the wings so they don't fly around. I'm pretty sure one of my priorities would be to take his flying advantage.

That's what I said. I'm thinking the only reason it wasn't implemented is because they don't leave their area. They can't like fly away, so there's no need to cripple their wings. That's why I want them to be able to flee. Then there would be good reason to do this. It would provide more of a challenge as well.

[Revan Reborn]

I'm quite interested in your thoughts, Revan.

As a fan of Musashi's work, a game mechanic akin to injuring the corners is a step in the right direction for me.

Personally I would like to see them attack from the sky more often to emphasize the need to cripple them first but as the game is not out yet, this may or may not actually happen.

I would just like the fights to be less staged such as a typical boss fight in a MMORPG. What made Skyrim interesting was that they didn't attack like typical creatures would in an RPG. They generally stayed to the skies and attack from above. You would have to damage them to a certain point before they would crash to the ground and no longer have the capacity to fly. I think that would an interesting element they could incorporate. Just giving them more behaviors to simulate a more believable AI would go a long way.

 

You know, I much prefer DA's approach to dragon encounters than Skyrim's. Yes, the dragons in DA:Origins and DA:2 were bland in every way, but so were Skyrim's. Neither really did it better if you ask me, just different.

 

As you stated, the dragons will look and behave more organic in DA:I. Each and every high dragon is going to be unique this time around each having their own breath attacks and appearances. There may be other differences as well, like resistances and such, but I don't know everything about the dragons in Inquisition and won't pretend to. This in itself is already such a huge improvement. I mean, have you seen them? They are awesome to look at! Dragons in Skyrim were just designed in a completely different way. There were differences between dragons, but this was based on the scaling of the dragons encountered. The dragons in Inquisition won't scale to the player. Their levels are fixed so that wouldn't have been possible. I think having their levels fixed will actually help to make the dragons feel like more of a threat, too. I certainly don't expect the awkwardness that is discovering you can pwn a dragon only to be clobbered by a giant! I also don't expect said giant to be able to send me flying to the moon.

 

I'll admit, I like having the dragons stick to their own territories. It makes sense to me that they'd have nests in the world and that they'd be territorial to a deadly degree. I fail to see how this is any less "organic" than Skyrim's dragon encounters, especially when they could be roasting a kid, only for the brat to not give a single you know what. Dragons couldn't destroy any part of the environment in Skyrim either, which really distracted me at times. It was like, ok, that dragon totally roasted that building, yet nothing happened..........all righty.

 

The dragons in Skyrim really started to just annoy me after a while. I swear, it got to a point I couldn't hardly fast travel in peace. Every time I tried, there one was just waiting for me. Try to go elsewhere, the stalker drago 1.0 frickin followed me there! There was nothing engaging about it, and it sure didn't take long for the initial excitement to wear off. They felt too common, like rats or fleas. I swear they were giant, scaly, flying trolls.

 

As per what I'd like to see DA do with dragons in the future, I can only really think of two other things I'd like them to implement. First, please, let me attack the wings. It makes no sense to let me attack it's limbs and not the wings. I mean, you don't want it to be able to fly away now, do you? Speaking of which, second, have them try to flee when too badly injured. I noticed in the vids that while dragons may try to reposition themselves if injured, they don't really run away altogether. They still come back to finish the fight even if they do go into the air for a moment. I want it to literally attempt to escape my wrath! Flee in terror oh mighty beast! Cower at my awesome savagery and might! Experience true terror at my hands! Muhahaha!!!!

Dragon fights in DAI just seem really mechanics-heavy and cumbersome, which is my issue. Yes, all dragons are different and they will do different things, but I doubt the fights themselves will change that drastically. Certainly I think one issue with Skyrim (the same problem with Oblivion) is that the occurrence of dragons became too common as the game progressed. It would have been better if they remained rare and more powerful than the player to provide a challenge.

 

Dragons will actually flee the battle and BioWare has confirmed this. It actually happened in the main video footage they showed us of a dragon fight. Once it got down to about 50%, it left the battle and the Inquisitor and companions moved on.

 

I have to agree that dragons in skyrim are a joke. The idea of them being able to appear anywhere is good, but the dragons themselves are not imposing. "Oh, another dragon. Meh, I don't need dragon souls." After the first few that's basically it in skyrim, they're dragon souls storages, do you want dragon souls or not?

DA:I may have them scripted to appear in specific places but at least they're working on making the fights memorable, which for a story heavy game makes sense.

I compare all dragon fights to the one with the red dragon in Dragon's Dogma. Yes, it's scripted but it's epic, engaging, fun and it makes sense (for the most part, it doesn't explain how you survive a several kylometres fall but while you're in the middle of it you don't care), explaining why the dragon isn't flying around anymore (it starts in a cave, once he gets out he just does fly-bys trying to burn you, staying out of reach from melee and moving too fast for range for the most part). It also helped that you could actually climb up on the dragon whenever he was close enough.

As far as DA:I's dragon fights go they seem to be better. I'm just asking myself why can't we shoot the wings so they don't fly around. I'm pretty sure one of my priorities would be to take his flying advantage.

I'm not referring to the specific execution in Skyrim, but rather the philosophy behind them. Another game that I thought did an interesting job of approaching dragon fights was TW2. Not only did the dragon have specific mechanics, but you also had to interact with the environment to conquer the foe. I just have a bad feeling most dragon fights in DAI are going to degenerate into attacking the dragons limbs and head, it runs away, we find it later and finish it off.

 

We'll see. Perhaps the footage BioWare showed wasn't indicative of the entire dragon experience. It just didn't seem that amazing to me (the fire looked incredible though).

[aerisblight]

A dragon fight like in Dragon's dogma....damn, that was awsome!

[AlanC9]

I would just like the fights to be less staged such as a typical boss fight in a MMORPG. What made Skyrim interesting was that they didn't attack like typical creatures would in an RPG. They generally stayed to the skies and attack from above. You would have to damage them to a certain point before they would crash to the ground and no longer have the capacity to fly. I think that would an interesting element they could incorporate. Just giving them more behaviors to simulate a more believable AI would go a long way.

 

The obvious problem with the Skyrim implementation is that flying around and attacking isn't a very useful combat move with that ruleset. Mostly it gives the Dragonborn a chance to heal back up to 100% once the dragon's passed overhead, and then maybe get a few arrows or lightning bolts in.

 

This might work better in DA:I because of the limited healing, though.

[Revan Reborn]

The obvious problem with the Skyrim implementation is that flying around and attacking isn't a very useful combat move with that ruleset. Mostly it gives the Dragonborn a chance to heal back up to 100% once the dragon's passed overhead, and then maybe get a few arrows or lightning bolts in.

 

This might work better in DA:I because of the limited healing, though.

Exactly. With a limited health pool BioWare could afford the dragon flying above and you would literally have to force it to the ground. I just think that would be more interesting than poking its legs and head until its health bar eventually disappears.

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Not sure if Skyrim is who should be held as an example when it comes to dragon fights. After half a dozen it becomes you running around and praying that an annoyance doesn't pounce on you.

[Silcron]

I think there are two ways of doing it, the more scripted way (Dragon's Dogma) and the more organic way. I just don't like quoting skyrim for the second one, if anything I'd go to Shadow of Mordor. When you encounter a warchief or a captain in that game you go "oh, shoot" Suddenly whatever you were doing is put on a second plane. Your priority is to decide whether you continue to do what you're doing or take him on, but those orcs manage to make you stop for a second and consider.

Now instead of orcs make that dragons, because in my book at leas that's how a organic dragon encounter in a videogame should work. A fecking dragon just appeared, it should be impressive.

Apart from that I think it's clear that Bioware is more about scripted stuff, that's what they're all about, thus me talking about D'sD, just because I don't see them going for organic encounters with dragons.

[Revan Reborn]

Not sure if Skyrim is who should be held as an example when it comes to dragon fights. After half a dozen it becomes you running around and praying that an annoyance doesn't pounce on you.

Again, it was the philosophy behind how BGS incorporated dragons that was interesting. The execution is an entirely different matter.

 

I think there are two ways of doing it, the more scripted way (Dragon's Dogma) and the more organic way. I just don't like quoting skyrim for the second one, if anything I'd go to Shadow of Mordor. When you encounter a warchief or a captain in that game you go "oh, shoot" Suddenly whatever you were doing is put on a second plane. Your priority is to decide whether you continue to do what you're doing or take him on, but those orcs manage to make you stop for a second and consider.

Now instead of orcs make that dragons, because in my book at leas that's how a organic dragon encounter in a videogame should work. A fecking dragon just appeared, it should be impressive.

Apart from that I think it's clear that Bioware is more about scripted stuff, that's what they're all about, thus me talking about D'sD, just because I don't see them going for organic encounters with dragons.

I don't mind it being scripted, to a point. I would just rather these dragons be actual creatures and have minds of their own. If their behavior is predictable, it leads to a mundane and uninteresting experience. Based off what we have seen from dragons so far, I'm not expecting much in terms of the combat. Sure they look cool and they sound nice, but they don't make me excited and want to encounter a dragon immediately. With Skyrim, it was unpredictable when a dragon would show up and thus would provide you with emergent gameplay, whether you wanted it or not. I think emergent gameplay, especially for DAI, will be important because of how large the game is and it makes open world games more enjoyable.

[Aurok]

Check this fight from Dragon's Dogma. If Bioware are intent on taking this franchise in the action direction, this is the sort of standard they should be aiming for. I thought a lot of Dragon's Dogma was pretty middling, but the first time I ran into a Chimera at night it absolutely floored me with how intense and atmospheric it was.