39 réponses à ce sujet

[Thiefy]

why didn't he try to recruit more people in Fereldan?

Aside from Loghaine that is. With or without him, you still have obscenely small numbers and I would think just out of necesaity he would try to get a few more wardens.

Ok so from the time you rescue him in Howe's dungeon (where he admits he didn't know how to do the joining) to doing the Alienage quest and finally the landsmeet, he gets documents/find the ingrediants/magical plot bunny/whatever and he can do the joining, but why does he only limit it to one person?

Ok and assuming he only has enough stuff for one extra recruit, if you don't spare him, shouldn't he have gotten another person?

I just thought given the dire situation at hand he would put more effort into recruitment. There's only an archdemon to kill and all.

[Sarielle]

Well, keep in mind you'd have to have somebody who'd be a) willing (and let's face it, it's obvious it's gonna suck to be a Grey Warden with an archdemon battle coming up, even if you don't know exactly what it takes to kill an archdemon) and who'd stand a good chance of surviving the joining. Otherwise you've just wasted the ingredients anyhow.

[RangerSG]

Who would he recruit. From the time you free Riordin to the time of the Landsmeet is only a couple of days. How many people and Joining will he be able to do in that time?

You have to have someone who 'could' survive in theory to even merit recruiting.

(edit) ninjaed. *sighs*

Modifié par RangerSG, 24 janvier 2010 - 10:10 .

[RangerSG]

LostScout wrote...

Let's see, he could recruit- Wynne, Leliana, Sten, Zevran, Morrigan? All of whom have been killing darkspawn, probably licking the blood spatters off their lips after a battle, so we know they are good fighters and aren't extraordinarily susceptible to the taint. As far as his not knowing the ritual, he might have lied to you. Gray wardens have been known to do that. Then again, Anora seems to know a lot more about the joining than she should. Maybe she provides the necessary ingredients and expertise to Riordan.

So great, half of those people (who are already aiding you) die. Great idea. So you end up having even less help going into the final battle than you already have.

Next option?

[BeljoraDien]

Yeah... I wish you had the option to make Oghren a Grey Warden. That dwarf could drink anything.

[Thiefy]

Sarielle wrote...

Well, keep in mind you'd have to have somebody who'd be a) willing (and let's face it, it's obvious it's gonna suck to be a Grey Warden with an archdemon battle coming up, even if you don't know exactly what it takes to kill an archdemon) and who'd stand a good chance of surviving the joining. Otherwise you've just wasted the ingredients anyhow.

Ah last time I checked you didn't have to be willing

and while yes, people do die from the joinings, the point is i think effort should have been made.

a few days should be more than enough time to find a recruit. maybe not the same method that duncan used, but seeing that we are facing certain doom i don't think riodan has the luxury to be that picky. not only that but with all the armies gathering he has a much better oppertunity to find recruits, many of whom are already well trained soldiers.

[RangerSG]

LostScout wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

LostScout wrote...

Let's see, he could recruit- Wynne, Leliana, Sten, Zevran, Morrigan? All of whom have been killing darkspawn, probably licking the blood spatters off their lips after a battle, so we know they are good fighters and aren't extraordinarily susceptible to the taint. As far as his not knowing the ritual, he might have lied to you. Gray wardens have been known to do that. Then again, Anora seems to know a lot more about the joining than she should. Maybe she provides the necessary ingredients and expertise to Riordan.

So great, half of those people (who are already aiding you) die. Great idea. So you end up having even less help going into the final battle than you already have.

Next option?

Half of them stand around at the gate doing nothing.  The final battle there could easily be handled by the Redcliffe volunteer militia.  So it is a very viable solution.

Ahh, and you 'know' which ones would survive. You even 'know' which members you could take and which not? Besides which, your argument is an appeal to metagaming.

[Thiefy]

RangerSG wrote...

LostScout wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

LostScout wrote...

Let's see, he could recruit- Wynne, Leliana, Sten, Zevran, Morrigan? All of whom have been killing darkspawn, probably licking the blood spatters off their lips after a battle, so we know they are good fighters and aren't extraordinarily susceptible to the taint. As far as his not knowing the ritual, he might have lied to you. Gray wardens have been known to do that. Then again, Anora seems to know a lot more about the joining than she should. Maybe she provides the necessary ingredients and expertise to Riordan.

So great, half of those people (who are already aiding you) die. Great idea. So you end up having even less help going into the final battle than you already have.

Next option?

Half of them stand around at the gate doing nothing.  The final battle there could easily be handled by the Redcliffe volunteer militia.  So it is a very viable solution.

Ahh, and you 'know' which ones would survive. You even 'know' which members you could take and which not? Besides which, your argument is an appeal to metagaming.

I think it's been said several times by npcs that the archdemon is everything. without it, there is no blight. so while i hate the idea of making my companions undergo a joining, i think he has a good point that the military should be able to handle the gate without your handle full of companions. if the three grey wardens fell before the archdemon did, they would be screwed anyway.

[mrofni]

I would have been a dick and conscripted all my party members.

[Monica21]

To be blunt, there isn't a good reason why. If you can recruit Loghain than you can conscript anyone.

[Thiefy]

LostScout wrote...

@RangerSG- you can complete the final battle with any combination of characters. Metagaming has nothing to do with it. You could complete the final battle with a random collection of warriors and mages from your allied armies. You don't know any of your companions would die in a joining, and since they have likely been exposed to the taint already they have a better chance of surviving. More gray wardens increases the odds of success. The only metagaming comes from knowing you can do it with only two. And if stopping the Blight is the most important issue- and any sacrifice is necessary- then maybe a gray warden would risk the death of his friends. This is the choice Wynne is worried about when she first complains about romancing your companions. Will you choose your duty or your loved ones?

you know your post made me think of something else. a bit of a tangent but i wonder what would happen if you made wynne undergo the joining? since she is technically already dead and it's the spirit's power keeping her soul in her body, would she still suffer from the taint in the same manner as the other wardens?

[Mindlessidiots]

I think people are forgetting that Roirdan said he could not becuase the vial containing archdemon blood was missing from the vault. So yeah, it would be impossible to have new Grey wardens.


EDIT: I just rememberd you can recruit Loghain to be a grey Warden

Modifié par Mindlessidiots, 24 janvier 2010 - 10:44 .

[kormesios]

LostScout wrote...
Half of them stand around at the gate doing nothing.  The final battle there could easily be handled by the Redcliffe volunteer militia.  So it is a very viable solution.

I've always assumed in RPGs that fights like that are somewhat stylized.  You play episodes, but it's not meant to encompass everything your party does, let alone the whole battle.  I'd also assume a living Ser Cauthrien, for example, is slaughtering darkspawn somewhere even though she never appears on screen.  (This ignores the fact that the Redcliffe militia would probably be slaughtered at the gates if you didn't help.)

And Ferelden isn't the "end game," from Riordan's point of view.  Even if he guesses wrong, and Ferelden is destroyed, the wardens in Orlais and other states remain.  So you take your bes guess at what you'll need--which is an unknown number of competent fighters to get the archdemon, and only one Warden to strike the killing blow.  Stacking up on "extra" wardens at the expense of the best warriors is a risky trade off.

[Monica21]

Mindlessidiots wrote...

I think people are forgetting that Roirdan said he could not becuase the vial containing archdemon blood was missing from the vault. So yeah, it would be impossible to have new Grey wardens.

Then how is it possible to get Loghain?

[Mindlessidiots]

Monica21 wrote...

Mindlessidiots wrote...

I think people are forgetting that Roirdan said he could not becuase the vial containing archdemon blood was missing from the vault. So yeah, it would be impossible to have new Grey wardens.

Then how is it possible to get Loghain?

Your right, I swear he told me that it would be impossible to have more joinings.

[SusanStoHelit]

It would've made perfect logical sense to have them go through the Joining, and Ser Cauthrien would be a brilliant candidate if she's still alive. And I think Anora should do it too *evil snicker* but that's just me being nasty, sorry, I couldn't help it, honest.

Edit: Riordan didn't have the Archdemon blood when we rescued him, or know how to do the Joining - but he does at the Landsmeet. One can only conclude that he found where Loghain had it stashed, or found another supply, and indeed had some unnamed mages do the necessary magic on it - or maybe he just used Enchantment *sigh*.

Modifié par SusanStoHelit, 24 janvier 2010 - 10:50 .

[Thiefy]

kormesios wrote...

LostScout wrote...
Half of them stand around at the gate doing nothing.  The final battle there could easily be handled by the Redcliffe volunteer militia.  So it is a very viable solution.

I've always assumed in RPGs that fights like that are somewhat stylized.  You play episodes, but it's not meant to encompass everything your party does, let alone the whole battle.  I'd also assume a living Ser Cauthrien, for example, is slaughtering darkspawn somewhere even though she never appears on screen.  (This ignores the fact that the Redcliffe militia would probably be slaughtered at the gates if you didn't help.)

And Ferelden isn't the "end game," from Riordan's point of view.  Even if he guesses wrong, and Ferelden is destroyed, the wardens in Orlais and other states remain.  So you take your bes guess at what you'll need--which is an unknown number of competent fighters to get the archdemon, and only one Warden to strike the killing blow.  Stacking up on "extra" wardens at the expense of the best warriors is a risky trade off.

yeah but the best warriors would end up dying at the hands/claws of teh archdemon or it's blight regardless without grey wardens. stacking up would be more than worth it.

fereldan may not be end game for riodan but it's still his job to save people from the blight, or at the very least, stop it from spreading further into orlais.

[RangerSG]

LostScout wrote...

@RangerSG- you can complete the final battle with any combination of characters. Metagaming has nothing to do with it. You could complete the final battle with a random collection of warriors and mages from your allied armies. You don't know any of your companions would die in a joining, and since they have likely been exposed to the taint already they have a better chance of surviving. More gray wardens increases the odds of success. The only metagaming comes from knowing you can do it with only two. And if stopping the Blight is the most important issue- and any sacrifice is necessary- then maybe a gray warden would risk the death of his friends. This is the choice Wynne is worried about when she first complains about romancing your companions. Will you choose your duty or your loved ones?

It's metagaming because you assume that OUT of character knowledge should influence what you do IN character.

Hence metagaming, the use of foreknowledge and game rule knowledge your character would never have.

[SusanStoHelit]

LostScout wrote...

I like the way you think Susan.  Having Loghain, Ser Cauthrien and Anora fight amongst themselves over who has to strike the final blow would be wicked

Why thank you *gracious bow*. :innocent:

But let it be noted that I want to snuff Loghain, then conscript Ser Cauthrien and Anora. The other could be fun, but that would be my choice. And definitely conscript Oghren and Sten - maybe Zevran and Leliana too, but them I'm not so sure of. Not Wynne or Morrigan.

As for the Joining, I suspect the rationale was that Riordan found some Archdemon/darkspawn blood stashed somewhere - but that it didn't get the lyrium/magical treatment that we did at our Joining. We know from David Gaider that it's not essential, it just makes the Joining more likely to be successful. Thus Loghain - or whoever in our proposed scenario - is at greater risk of death.

[RangerSG]

LostScout wrote...

RangerSG wrote...

LostScout wrote...

@RangerSG- you can complete the final battle with any combination of characters. Metagaming has nothing to do with it. You could complete the final battle with a random collection of warriors and mages from your allied armies. You don't know any of your companions would die in a joining, and since they have likely been exposed to the taint already they have a better chance of surviving. More gray wardens increases the odds of success. The only metagaming comes from knowing you can do it with only two. And if stopping the Blight is the most important issue- and any sacrifice is necessary- then maybe a gray warden would risk the death of his friends. This is the choice Wynne is worried about when she first complains about romancing your companions. Will you choose your duty or your loved ones?

It's metagaming because you assume that OUT of character knowledge should influence what you do IN character.

Hence metagaming, the use of foreknowledge and game rule knowledge your character would never have.

No.  There is no assumption of OUT of character knowledge.  My character knows that more wardens are needed.  He knows that his companions would make able wardens.  Metagaming is saying, yeah, we only need Loghain/Alistair and doomed Riordan and myself to do the job.

Your initial argument was dependant on "half the characters stand around the gate doing nothing." You don't KNOW that they will. You know that more wardens will ultiumately be needed, yes. But seeing as a handful or Wardens killed Dulat, if you have the army to fight through the Horde, do you know you need more Wardens NOW?

And how would you know 'which' characters would live and which would not. So sorry, your whole argument was a metagame. Now you've tried to rephrase it to in-character. But you're still condemning people who've already fought at your side to death for no reason other than an assumption.