76 réponses à ce sujet

[Kallas_br123]

No they aren't ... on at least a couple of occasions Varric is caught in a lie that is too big for Cassandra to handle and she calls him out on it.

 

 

--EDIT--

 

The only things that are actually set in stone as being "Canon" in Dragon Age II are the Keep Choices and whatever is confirmed as happening in Dragon Age III.

and those are the times that a lie is confirmed until someone from biowere come and say, or something in future games is disproved, what happened (unless times cited as lies) are canonical facts, this includes all enemies faced.

 

As I said it is necessary Word of God to disprove any fact present in a dragon age (being origins or DA2), or anyone, can ignore facts that do not pleasing to him, in any game of the series.

 

Sorry bad english.

[Merle McClure II]

No, Dragon Age II & L's Song are the only stories in the Dragon Age series that are narrated stories, the rest are from the perspective of reality (Codex Entries aside of course.).

 

 

And Varric himself says something about how he would embellish the story of Dragon Age III's hero if/when he retells that story so you have it coming from the horse's own mouth. 

[Kallas_br123]

No, Dragon Age II & L's Song are the only stories in the Dragon Age series that are narrated stories, the rest are from the perspective of reality (Codex Entries aside of course.).

 

 

And Varric himself says something about how he would embellish the story of Dragon Age III's hero if/when he retells that story so you have it coming from the horse's own mouth. 

of course!!!

 

then your theory is that biowere, would make a whole game in the series, only half a cannon? with only certain parts? the rest is a bunch of lies (the rest would mean most of it, about 50+ hours) and no more than a tale created by the imagination of Varric?

 

Do you see the problem with that? if biowere come tomorrow and say that most of the Varric said in DA2 is a lie, it would alienate a large part of fandon, and jeopardize future sales, and the continuity of the narrative.

 

What did they gain from this? Nothing but a shitty storm, which would be greater than that caused by the end of ME3.

 

let me guess you are a big fan of origins but thought that DA2 was a disappointment?

[Lucky Thirteen]

 

of course!!!

 

then your theory is that biowere, would make a whole game in the series, only half a cannon? with only certain parts? the rest is a bunch of lies (the rest would mean most of it, about 50+ hours) and no more than a tale created by the imagination of Varric?

 

Do you see the problem with that? if biowere come tomorrow and say that most of the Varric said in DA2 is a lie, it would alienate a large part of fandon, and jeopardize future sales, and the continuity of the narrative.

 

What did they gain from this? Nothing but a shitty storm, which would be greater than that caused by the end of ME3.

 

let me guess you are a big fan of origins but thought that DA2 was a disappointment?

 

 

As a person who was a massive fan of Dragon Age 2, it really gets on my nerves when people seem to think that people who think it's possible Varric fibbed a bit with the DA2 story are haters. 

 

As a writer and long time story and character analyzing fan, it's just a general rule of thumb with story telling. You can't 100% trust the narrator, you can't 100% trust a first person story, because whether it's intentional or not, there are going to be alterations to how things really happen. He was telling the story to Cassandra and trying to hide Hawke after all.

 

I doubt the whole thing is a lie, but to think nothing is, is just foolish.

[Althix]

Warden, because he/she has higher IQ.

[Kallas_br123]

As a person who was a massive fan of Dragon Age 2, it really gets on my nerves when people seem to think that people who think it's possible Varric fibbed a bit with the DA2 story are haters. 

 

As a writer and long time story and character analyzing fan, it's just a general rule of thumb with story telling. You can't 100% trust the narrator, you can't 100% trust a first person story, because whether it's intentional or not, there are going to be alterations to how things really happen. He was telling the story to Cassandra and trying to hide Hawke after all.

 

I doubt the whole thing is a lie, but to think nothing is, is just foolish.

 

separate truth from lies, is the work of Cassandra, so that in several instances, she calls Varric in a lie, a good portion of what the Varric told, is most likely true.

 

and the parts that are not the absolute truth, well, until a dev come and say the contrary, everything that happened in DA2 is canonical, and all reported achievements in the game happened.

 

and use to this argument to try to devalue the achievements of hawke, is an poor excuse.

 

and even if the whole DA2 is a narrative twist, you have to consider that it would not be a good idea to try to use this narrative device, the amount of people that would feel alienate by biowere, will be much larger than the amount of people who applaud.

 

You might even like this twist, I can be mature enough not to have a nerd rage attack over it, but if you think that the whole gaming community are so so mature, you give too much credit to the human race.

 

sorry bad english

[Merle McClure II]

A couple of things to consider;

 

 

(1) In at least one place Varric is describing events that quite simply can't be true based off the metaphysical rules of the Dragon Age Universe.

 

 

(2) The only times that he is called on bullshitting is when he "goes too far" in stretching the truth. (Hawke taking on the entire Blight ... Varric being an action movie hero.) 

 

 

(3) There is a huge difference between saying that Varric lied about the actual story accomplishments of Hawk and saying that Varric "made the story better" by adding, oh I don't know, waves upon waves of teleporting enemies to drive the point home that Hawke was a badass that is better left alone by Cassandra.

 

 

(4) Varric apparently admits that he'd give Dragon Age III a similar treatment if he were telling that story.

 

 

---

 

 

As for alienating the fan base ... nah, that would only happen if Bioware pulled nonsense like claiming that Hawke didn't save the city from the rogue Qun or that "Hawke wasn't really" the one who defeated Medith. As is they toyed with the idea of making a game from the "unreliable narrator" and have apparently moved away from that storytelling tool.  

[Kallas_br123]

A couple of things to consider;

 

 

(1) In at least one place Varric is describing events that quite simply can't be true based off the metaphysical rules of the Dragon Age Universe.

 

 

(2) The only times that he is called on bullshitting is when he "goes too far" in stretching the truth. (Hawke taking on the entire Blight ... Varric being an action movie hero.) 

 

 

(3) There is a huge difference between saying that Varric lied about the actual story accomplishments of Hawk and saying that Varric "made the story better" by adding, oh I don't know, waves upon waves of teleporting enemies to drive the point home that Hawke was a badass that is better left alone by Cassandra.

 

 

(4) Varric apparently admits that he'd give Dragon Age III a similar treatment if he were telling that story.

 

 

---

 

 

As for alienating the fan base ... nah, that would only happen if Bioware pulled nonsense like claiming that Hawke didn't save the city from the rogue Qun or that "Hawke wasn't really" the one who defeated Medith. As is they toyed with the idea of making a game from the "unreliable narrator" and have apparently moved away from that storytelling tool.  

as I said more faith in the human race than me.

 

the point of the argument that was used the above was made to discredit hawke, as the unique demons and enemies he killed, and that point, I  strongly disagree.

 

If a person cant find an enemy that the warden has defeated, that is more powerful than the ones hawke defeated, do not try to discredit hawke deeds using the excuse that it was all a lie invented by Varric.

 

Sorry bad english

[Merle McClure II]

Not really, the difference is that Mass Effect 3's ending just came out of no-where and is shoddy storytelling. (It isn't as bad with all of the DLCs but it's still an example of poor storytelling.) Dragon Age II makes no bones about being what it is ... a story being told by an unreliable narrator and as far as I'm aware, only a tiny minority of players don't realize this. Hell, the game makes a special point of slapping you in the face with this in the very first scene. "Faith in humanity" has nothing to do with it.

 

 

As for powerful foes ... I'd say that the Baroness is at least as powerful as the demons that Hawke faced, and due to the rather ... worthless nature of the Golem NPCs, the Harvester that the Warden-Commander fought was the harder battle.

[Kallas_br123]

Not really, the difference is that Mass Effect 3's ending just came out of no-where and is shoddy storytelling. (It isn't as bad with all of the DLCs but it's still an example of poor storytelling.) Dragon Age II makes no bones about being what it is ... a story being told by an unreliable narrator and as far as I'm aware, only a tiny minority of players don't realize this. Hell, the game makes a special point of slapping you in the face with this in the very first scene. "Faith in humanity" has nothing to do with it.

 

 

As for powerful foes ... I'd say that the Baroness is at least as powerful as the demons that Hawke faced, and due to the rather ... worthless nature of the Golem NPCs, the Harvester that the Warden-Commander fought was the harder battle.

as I said I am of little faith, I do not believe much in the general population, it tends to be stupid, especially if you look at of goers these forums.

 

Yes, as I said in a previous post, the baroness is probably the most powerful demon that the warden defeated, easily equal to any of the unique demons that hawke faced in kirkwall, but I do not think she is more powerful than malvernis, ou Hybris, they seem more extraordinary, by age and legend associated with them, at least in the case of hybris, malvernis we do not even know what kind of demon he is.

 

and the Harvester although yes, to be a power house, hawke also faced one of them, do not forget, Orsino.

 

 

Bad english.

[Kallas_br123]

Totally unrelated, or maybe a little, but how powerful you think the fenris is?

I tend to think that he is maybe even more powerful than hawke, for his tattoos, in cut scenes those tattoos seem to give him a big boost in strength and speed.

[Merle McClure II]

True but as I recall Hawke has the help of her companies which quite frankly are much, much better then the garbage the Warden-Commander had to deal with in Golems so I'll stand by my comment that although both the Warden-Commander and Hawke fought "Harvesters" the Warden-Commander's encounter was the tougher of the two.

 

 

As for Fenris ... hard to peg him in the power structure, on one hand his tattoos give him options that no-one else has but on the other he himself seems to accept that Hawke would wipe the floor with him and that is one of the reasons he wouldn't even consider turning the various mages Hawke is friends with into the Templars. 

[Kallas_br123]

True but as I recall Hawke has the help of her companies which quite frankly are much, much better then the garbage the Warden-Commander had to deal with in Golems so I'll stand by my comment that although both the Warden-Commander and Hawke fought "Harvesters" the Warden-Commander's encounter was the tougher of the two.

 

 

As for Fenris ... hard to peg him in the power structure, on one hand his tattoos give him options that no-one else has but on the other he himself seems to accept that Hawke would wipe the floor with him and that is one of the reasons he wouldn't even consider turning the various mages Hawke is friends with into the Templars. 

Indeed, in both situations.

 

The Waden facing the harvester had less help than when hawke faced him, a point to consider.

 

golem of amgarrak, is really a dlc that highlights the power of the warden, the companions that dlc, besides the golen who accompanied him were not very good.

 

I still think the hawke is overall better fighter (whether as a warrior, mage or rogue) none of them harvester or baroness can be said to be more powerful than the other enemies that  hawke defeated.

[Gambit458]

 

there is no an answer for that, if you want to believe that everything that happened in DA 2 was a lie created by Varric, ok fine.

 

But unless word of God, come and say yes is all made up, DA 2 events are as cannon as of origins.

 

Did you even bother playing Inquisition? Varric pretty much admits to how he writes his stories and that he's known for stretching the truth. Maybe you're just one of those guys who doesn't like to admit he's wrong but there are points where Varric had to rephrase because Cassandra caught him, as Merle already mentioned, BSing her

 

The Warden possessed better abilities than Hawke did. For ex with Mage, if I recall..A mage in DA Origins and Awakening had far better spells at their disposal than you did in DA 2. I literally just had some fun not too long ago casting Inferno, Tempest, and Blizzard at the same time(as in I casted one immediately after the one)just because I could in Awakening. I don't recall being able to do stuff like that in DA 2

[themikefest]

Hawke would win a debate against the Warden

[Kallas_br123]

Did you even bother playing Inquisition? Varric pretty much admits to how he writes his stories and that he's known for stretching the truth. Maybe you're just one of those guys who doesn't like to admit he's wrong but there are points where Varric had to rephrase because Cassandra caught him, as Merle already mentioned, BSing her

 

The Warden possessed better abilities than Hawke did. For ex with Mage, if I recall..A mage in DA Origins and Awakening had far better spells at their disposal than you did in DA 2. I literally just had some fun not too long ago casting Inferno, Tempest, and Blizzard at the same time(as in I casted one immediately after the one)just because I could in Awakening. I don't recall being able to do stuff like that in DA 2

I am of these guys? funny that who is getting defensive and combative here is you.

 

and as I said game mechanics, does not count as proof of power.

 

and if you have nothing better to include to a discussion, if you will not even have the job of searching the wiki to support your arguments, hold back on entering any discussion.

[Gambit458]

 

I am of these guys? funny that who is getting defensive and combative here is you.

 

and as I said game mechanics, does not count as proof of power.

 

and if you have nothing better to include to a discussion, if you will not even have the job of searching the wiki to support your arguments, hold back on entering any discussion.

 

Not defensive or "combative", it's simply true that you deny everything that proves you wrong and keep declaring your opinions as if you think they're fact. Heck, you even tried to say some of the people here are stupid. You have no proof that any of the enemies you mentioned are greater than the Wardens nor do you have any proof that Hawke is more experienced in combat. You don't even have any proof that everything Hawke did actually happened since Varric is telling the story. 

[Kallas_br123]

Not defensive or "combative", it's simply true that you deny everything that proves you wrong and keep declaring your opinions as if you think they're fact. Heck, you even tried to say some of the people here are stupid. You have no proof that any of the enemies you mentioned are greater than the Wardens nor do you have any proof that Hawke is more experienced in combat. You don't even have any proof that everything Hawke did actually happened since Varric is telling the story. 

I declare my opinions as fact?

Of course!!! And What do you do?

I list deeds, information taken from the game, and when my memory fails I search the wiki. what do you do?

you attack me. Instead of listing rasões why you think the warden is stronger, or defend the points you made earlier with facts, you attack me and and insults, then bro, I'm actually calling someone stupid and that of someone is you.

 

Want to argue with someone, take a tip from Merle McClure II, he did not agree with me, I do not agree with him, but none of us attacked the other, we are not defensive, and he in 1 post gave more credit to his argument, the you in several post that contained three times the size.

 

then listen to yourself, and provide facts.

 

and let me understand this, you say I did not provide evidence, but actually the fact is that you do not like the evidence I provided, and your best argument is all those opponents of note that hawke defeated are not cannon. nice one.

Modifié par Kallas_br123, 06 janvier 2015 - 08:25 .

[Undead Han]

The Warden defeated much more impressive enemies than Hawke.

 

So Warden > Hawke

 

I think Hawke is the weakest of the three protagonists.

[Maverick_One]

I did not create just one canon HoF and Hawkes but three. One for each class. When I factor in the various factors I think should be considered, as it is My HoF and Hawke. HoF Mage falls to her Cousin. Whether you want to argue about what facts are embellished or lied about I think we can all agree with the statement Malcom Hawke was a formidable Mage. I would think some things are hereditary. Mana Clash yeah all well and good except his mana is the bare minumum as I focused on his constitution since I didn't really want to take health from any companions, that would be evil, and my Hawke while a Blood Mage is not evil. So yes you might weaken him but I am confident his constitution would be able to hold up, as I planned the path from the start, so he was preparing to become a blood mage beforehand. I also think that when you combine it with him being a Force Mage that any advantage Hawke's cousin would gain would be negated. Keep in mind I am sure Malcom Hawke would of trained Garrett in other methods as Templars are particulary resistant to magic so I am going to say my Hawke is quite proficient in arms as well. Though he don't show it. While his cousin is not as proficient.  

 

Battle of Rogues. My Rogue is a Dalish hunter, he grew up in the forests. He would be the proficient hunter, and he has animals to come to his aid, plus Isabela did train him to be a duelist and he had time to perfect what he taught her, and while she might not of taught him everything she knows, he is the most experienced at being quiet, and not letting his prey see him. He would know she was there before Hawke knew he was around, and could hide and track better than she. It is his fieldcraft that wins him the day. Hawke is formidable but you can't kill what you can't find.

 

Battle of Warriors. My HoF and Hawke would be fighting a hard fought battle, but at the end of the day. HoF while he is a decent person, when it comes to a fight he does whatever it takes win. The kind of life he had before being a Warden didn't allow you the luxury of things like morals. What is right to him is what keeps him alive, and his family taken care of. If it would be the difference between dying and victory he'd do it, whatever it takes. Hawke is more honorable, and that would be his undoing.

 

Team battle on the surface you'd think the HoF has the better team, but really could you really count on Zev as much as I like him killing isabela, or even being able to? Who do you think is more accurate, and has a better fire rate Varric or Leliana? Bianca vs. a Bow? I say Bianca wins. I think Morrigan is the best Mage out of either set of companions so poor Merril doesn't stand a chance. Fenris with his abilities trumps either Sten or Oghren. Carver with his training in the Army and then becoming a Grey Warden and either Sten or Oghren is a toss up. Aveline vs. Alistar. That would be a toss up. Wynne and Anders both are possessed by a spirit, and are healing mages. Anders is the more ruthless and willing to kill of the two. I think he takes it on having less problems with morality if he thinks it is justified. I think Varric from a distance could hold any companions off to keep those companions from DA 2 alive long enough for Hawke to join the battle.  Change a few things around and it becomes 3 mages on Hawke's side. Keep in mind Bethany is the daughter of Malcom Hawke again I would think his magical might would be hereditary. Also she would be proficient in arms because of the Templars resistance to magic. I see the versions where she gets put in the circle as her not resisting because that is the best course, not because she couldn't.  Bethany makes up the difference in the missing warrior. Varric still keeps at a safe distance. However because of the HoF in the Rogue, and Warrior canons. Hawke and his companions Fall.  Also with my Rogue there is a question of where Merrill's loyalties lie. 

[Gambit458]

 

I declare my opinions as fact?

Of course!!! And What do you do?

I list deeds, information taken from the game, and when my memory fails I search the wiki. what do you do?

you attack me. Instead of listing rasões why you think the warden is stronger, or defend the points you made earlier with facts, you attack me and and insults, then bro, I'm actually calling someone stupid and that of someone is you.

 

Want to argue with someone, take a tip from Merle McClure II, he did not agree with me, I do not agree with him, but none of us attacked the other, we are not defensive, and he in 1 post gave more credit to his argument, the you in several post that contained three times the size.

 

then listen to yourself, and provide facts.

 

and let me understand this, you say I did not provide evidence, but actually the fact is that you do not like the evidence I provided, and your best argument is all those opponents of note that hawke defeated are not cannon. nice one.

 

I've never attacked you so obviously not only do you declare that you can't type English very well but apparently you can't understand it either. Have I called you names? No. Have I belittled you? No. All I did was tell you that you're wrong and you pitched a hissy fit over it like you are now. I have provided multiple facts bud that you have no counter arguments to. You have no proof that the enemies Hawke has faced are greater than the Warden's because you base it upon your personal opinion and viewpoint. Lol can you prove that every enemy Hawke faced was canon? At least in the Warden's case you know everything that happened was 100% true. Hawke's story on the other hand could have been exaggerated from time to time by Varric. Nice one

[Eyes_Only]

This is a very good question. I don't know if I should simply compare a warden to hawke, or one of my wardens to one of my hawkes.

 

When I play the game, usually my DAO Grey Warden starts out as simply having the worst luck possible. But he/she makes the most of it. Wipe the blood of Ostagar off the armor or robes and decide to fight back. That is my Warden. Thrust into the face of death where he/she rallies the nations of humans, dwarves and elves under his/her banner and kicks that arch demon's ass back to the first blight. Each day was filled with death, destruction, loss of loved ones or people he/she swore to protect. In all that darkness he/she found love. Saw the betterment of mankind.

 

Hawke on the other hand fled the blight (unlike my warden) and there in Kirkwall he/she made money and rose up in the ranks of nobles by committing crime. My Hawke is a sarcastic joker who laughs in the face of danger and only takes things seriously when they effect him/her... like the loss of mother. Everything Hawke did was to make life better for him/herself. Not for others. Taking on the qunari was more of a necessity then a desire to do so. I got the feeling my Hawke would have walked away were he/she able to. My Hawke is usually a mage or one that supports mages. So he/she always stuck it to the Templars when possible.

 

I sort of see my Warden and Hawke like Superman vs The Hulk.

 

My warden is powerful. He/she took on Flemmeth, a high dragon, the arch demon, Brood Mothers, Pride Demons, dark spawn hordes, The Mother and the Architect. Nearly single handedly ended the 5th blight.

 

Compared to that the accomplishments of Hawke look like your average carta thug.

 

But that's not to underestimate the abilities of my Hawke. In single combat I think the two would be about dead even. Both my hawke and warden mages use blood magic. My rogues all specialize in the same things as do my warriors. I think if my Ser Philip Cousland took on my Kaileena Hawke right now, it would end in a tie breaker in their room. One having reach, the other flexibility...

[Gambit458]

Speaking of mages, I think the mages had better specializations in Origins/Awakening than they did in 2. I loved the battlemage specialization you could get in Awakening

[Kallas_br123]

I've never attacked you so obviously not only do you declare that you can't type English very well but apparently you can't understand it either. Have I called you names? No. Have I belittled you? No. All I did was tell you that you're wrong and you pitched a hissy fit over it like you are now. I have provided multiple facts bud that you have no counter arguments to. You have no proof that the enemies Hawke has faced are greater than the Warden's because you base it upon your personal opinion and viewpoint. Lol can you prove that every enemy Hawke faced was canon? At least in the Warden's case you know everything that happened was 100% true. Hawke's story on the other hand could have been exaggerated from time to time by Varric. Nice one

You tell me that I'm putting my opinions as absolute truth, that's an insult, so re-read your other posts, and you noticed that you do it often.

 

Yes, I reasoned, gave evidence taken from the lore, and wiki, the only enemy of note, which the hawke not faced a similar, is the baroness. (and the best part is that it was not you who mentioned).

 

Now your best defense is, the DA2 events are not 100% canonical. hilarious.

 

Okay, I know that my English not very good, maybe my explanations have not been clear, Let me be direct.

you do not have evidence, you do not know how to argue, do not want to take the time to research before posting. learn to do these things.

 

PS. Mechanics, as this specialization was cooler in a game, spells were the coolest in such a game, do not say anything, that things have nothing to do with lore.

[AngelOfOutlaws]

My main problem with DAII was that your Hawke didn't really have a personality you could create. S/he was either kind, sarcastic, or aggressive. So because of that, my Warden always holds a special place in my heart for me. 

 

The huge dialogue tree in DAO, left me to create my Warden as I felt she was: stubborn to her parents, sarcastic and biting yet smart to those above her, sarcastic, yet eventually kind to Alistair...and flirty with everyone. I felt like that was lost with DAII, and it was alright with DAI, but still not what I was hoping for.