70 réponses à ce sujet

[im commander shep]

I'm sure this has been brought up before but will ask again. Dose the fact that leviathan has survived all this time show that even the most powerful and unstoppable synthetics would not be able to wipe out all life in the galaxy. Another reason why the catalyst logic should not be trusted as over the millions of years the original race its creators has managed to survive constant cycles showing that life will almost always find a way to survive.

[caradoc2000]

The Catalyst's goal was not to wipe out all life - quite the opposite, it was to preserve life (more precisely, take out life advanced enough to pose a threat to itself).

 

The Reapers only harvested advanced life. The Leviathans were advanced, but no longer a threat (they were hiding after all).

[Valmar]

More like billion+ years. It's logic is derived from statistic analysis. Ever consider that perhaps we just take it entirely too literally?

 

At any rate I wouldn't really call it fair to make a judgement on the majority of organic races based off the Leviathan. They are the apex organic species. Know where you and I will be in a billion years? Dead. Our planet? Dead. Know where the Leviathans will be? Still alive. Sure, the Leviathans managed to survive the cycle (though to what extent who knows, we only see three of them) but they are an exception to the rule. They're so far beyond us it's not even funny.

 

Think of it this way... do you consider it fair to say that the protheans were harvested by the reapers? I mean, Javik is alive. A few of the scientists survived. Do these miniscule, insignificant numbers suddenly make up for all that were lost? If all of humanity was destroyed but one man would you suddenly not say humanity was wiped out? For all intents and purposes humanity would had been destroyed, the survival of only a few does not change that. 

 

 

The Catalyst's goal was not to wipe out all life - quite the opposite, it was to preserve life (more precisely, take out life advanced enough to pose a threat to itself).

 

Honestly if people put as much effort into trying to understand the reapers/cataylst instead of fishing for reasons to hate it there wouldn't be as much hate for the ending, imo.

 

 

The Reapers only harvested advanced life. The Leviathans were advanced, but no longer a threat (they were hiding after all).

 

I doubt they stopped harvesting the Leviathan because it was no longer a threat. They thought the leviathans were all harvested. The Leviathan were good enough at hiding and keeping their survival a secret. Had the reaper's known they were alive, even if they were complete pacifists, I'm sure they would had finished the job.

[Reorte]

Honestly if people put as much effort into trying to understand the reapers/cataylst instead of fishing for reasons to hate it there wouldn't be as much hate for the ending, imo.

People understand it all too well. It's one of the reasons for the hate.

[im commander shep]

The Catalyst's goal was not to wipe out all life - quite the opposite, it was to preserve life (more precisely, take out life advanced enough to pose a threat to itself).

The Reapers only harvested advanced life. The Leviathans were advanced, but no longer a threat (they were hiding after all).

The leviathan was a threat as shown by Dr Bryson. There was evidence that they were trying to control the Rachni and use them to dominate the cycle. The reapers certainly wanted it gone they could just not find it.

[im commander shep]

More like billion+ years. It's logic is derived from statistic analysis. Ever consider that perhaps we just take it entirely too literally?

We have to take it literally as we have to make the games final decision based on it. Statistical analysis requires data how ever small and there is not data to show synthetics will ever wipe out all organics where as there is data showing that it would not realistically be possible for synthetics to be able to or want to. If the end game is based on this idea we can only use the knowledge that we have seen throughout the trilogy done of which backs up the catalyst logic. At best he shows there will always be conflict between organics and synthetics but never would synthetics ever be able to win. Either the organics win or a peace is found is all that has been explained or shown. If you have the apex organics leviathan vs apex synthetics reapers the fact the leviathan still exist suggest synthetics could never dominate all organics.

[Valmar]

We have to take it literally as we have to make the games final decision based on it. Statistical analysis requires data how ever small and there is not data to show synthetics will ever wipe out all organics where as there is data showing that it would not realistically be possible for synthetics to be able to or want to.

 

Except there is data that points to that. We just don't see it ourselves as Shepard. Leviathan tells you, Catalyst tells you. Clearly they have the data and that is what they say the result is.

 

 

If the end game is based on this idea we can only use the knowledge that we have seen throughout the trilogy done of which backs up the catalyst logic.

 

Or the knowledge told to us by those who have existed for a billion years who tell us that the data is there. I'm crazy, I guess, since I put more stock in the perspective of billion+ year old immortals than I do in that of one single man who's sole contact with synthetics doesn't go back farther than a year. I'm looney like that.

 

At best he shows there will always be conflict between organics and synthetics but never would synthetics ever be able to win.

 

Tell that to the quarians who limped away, practically extinct. Tell that to the species that were wiped out in the prothean's cycle by AI. Tell that to the leviathans. Better yet, tell that to the countless cycles and countless civilizations that were harvested. The starbrat itself should be the perfect example of how devastatingly dangerous AI can be. Took at least a billion years for someone to stop it - even then it was only stopped because it essentially commits suicide by HELPING the person trying to end it. Had it not done that it'd still be alive.

 

 

Either the organics win or a peace is found is all that has been explained or shown.

 

If you cast aside the leviathans, Javik and the reapers all explaining to you that this isn't the case, then yes. If you place zero value in their perspective, sure. Though then it is only because you choose not to acknowledge or accept what they have told you. The lore explains it to you, you just choose not to believe it. You're treating the subject too seriously, imo. It's a game, not everything in the game world has to be perfect and flawless or make complete sense. They say there is a pattern, so then there is a pattern. I don't understand how they can change all life in the galaxy by having some guy jump in a beam of light yet it clearly can happen in the Mass Effect universe. Somehow. Does it make any sense to me? No, I think its silly. Clearly its possible there, though.

 

I don't like the notion that organics are doomed to always create synthetics that in turn always wipe us out. It's not very optimistic and I'd rather think there is a future to be had with AI. Though wtf do I know, we don't even have AI in the real world yet. In Mass Effect's universe they do and in this fictional universe with aliens, AI and space magic the pattern exists. We know it exists because they tell us multiple times that it exists. No matter how much you feel it shouldn't exist, it clearly does because they keep telling you it does.

 

 

If you have the apex organics leviathan vs apex synthetics reapers the fact the leviathan still exist suggest synthetics could never dominate all organics.

 

The starbrat without a reaper fleet was able to harvest, essentially, the entire species of Leviathan with only three of them being known to survive in hiding. Personally I have to give  the 'win' to starbrat on this one. The leviathan's got their asses handed to them big time. Now they hide and cower as the reapers do whatever the hell they want with the cosmos.

[Reorte]

I don't like the notion that organics are doomed to always create synthetics that in turn always wipe us out. It's not very optimistic and I'd rather think there is a future to be had with AI. Though wtf do I know, we don't even have AI in the real world yet. In Mass Effect's universe they do and in this fictional universe with aliens, AI and space magic the pattern exists. We know it exists because they tell us multiple times that it exists. No matter how much you feel it shouldn't exist, it clearly does because they keep telling you it does.

Except that we don't see it. We see some conflict, and organics have won (or been winning them before the Reapers interefere) every time. Even if that wasn't the case a story continually telling me something that I don't agree with, particulary if it does it just by inventing examples, just means I'll most likely reject it as a badly written story. It is not making a convincing generalisation. This is doubly true when it's dealing with issues that could at least theoretically exist (it's got more scope for saying whatever it likes about 100% fictional things like eezo).

[Valmar]

Except that we don't see it. We see some conflict, and organics have won (or been winning them before the Reapers interefere) every time. Even if that wasn't the case a story continually telling me something that I don't agree with, particulary if it does it just by inventing examples, just means I'll most likely reject it as a badly written story. It is not making a convincing generalisation. This is doubly true when it's dealing with issues that could at least theoretically exist (it's got more scope for saying whatever it likes about 100% fictional things like eezo).

 

So? We've never seen female volus but we know they exist because the lore tells us. You don't see any female turians without DLC yet we knew they existed because its in the lore. You don't have to witness something yourself to be able to read the information provided to you. Lore is more than just what you see as the player. Imagine if we never saw that dyson sphere the geth were building. Does us not seeing it mean it doesn't exist, even though the geth told us it did? It is lore that the cycle exists and it is lore that synthetics will wipe out organics. Why is it lore? Because we've been told this by multiple sources. This is a fictional universe with a fictional history and in this fictional universe this is what happens because the fictional characters in the fictional universe told us it does. 

 

You can reject it as a poorly written story but in the end it doesn't matter how you feel about it. It is still lore, period. No matter how you FEEL about it is lore in the fictional universe. Arguing that it doesn't exist simply because you don't like it is ridiculous. This 'synthetic will end organics' twist isn't even special to Mass Effect. Practically every piece of media that has scifI AI features them going crazy and killing us. This theoretical scenerio is not something only Mass Effect thought of, its actually quite popular.

 

If you don't like it, okay then. Not everyone likes things. It's cool. Just don't dismiss lore because you don't like it. I know its tempting but lore is lore for a reason. I'd LOVE to pretend Citadel DLC never happened. My headcanon fixes that. That doesn't mean I should just pretend the events in it didn't happen and aren't lore just because I didn't like it. I don't like synthesis because I find its execution to be silly - that doesn't mean I ignore the fact that it exists. It is lore, regardless how you or I feel about it.

[von uber]

It's also lore that fixing the issues you have with your father drastically improves your survival rate.
Or an abused, traumatised women just needs some more man love to sort her out and become a normal functioning member of society.
Or a bullet to the head can solve everything.
Or someone can be stupid enough to ask whether asari can mate with themselves.
And so on.

So I wouldn't take it too seriously.

[RatThing]

Yes actually. This is one argument I use to reject the catalysts logic and its solution. In fact, I give another example in my game by letting the Quarians destroy the Geth. Both the Quarians and the Leviathan were considered practically doomed, but they fell back, waited for their chance and in the end they survived their creations. No one said the catalyst is some divine oracle. It's a mashine and it makes mistakes. It is up to you if you believe it or not.

 

P.s. the Reapers did not leave the Leviathan alone whether they were a threat or not. They were searching for them, hunting them, yet could not exterminate them completely.

 

P.p.s the catalyst even admits that it underestimated organics when Shepard asks why it hasn't stopped the construction of the crucible before.

[Reorte]

If you go with "the lore says..." would you say the same if it took an equivalent position on a controversial real world issue?

[fhs33721]

If you go with "the lore says..." would you say the same if it took an equivalent position on a controversial real world issue?

If you somehow manage to experience every single peace of real life lore, sure why not. You won't be able to ever achieve this though, because unlike the by comparison quite small lore of Mass effect it won't fit into a single human brain.

And I doubt that wikiedia, probaly the closest thing we might have to a lore-collection of the real world, actually takes any position on controversial issues.

[Display Name Owner]

Well, the Catalyst's directive is to stop Synthetics from wiping out organic life; really all it's cycles seem designed for is eliminating Synthetics before they become capable of spreading throughout the galaxy. The whole "preserving" Organics thing seems kind of incidental, just a way of ensuring their survival (you and I know turning them into goo fuel for a giant robot isn't survival, but the Catalyst evidently doesn't make that distinction) and keeping the whole pattern orderly. It doesn't think of Organics in terms of individuals or even species, just a kind of blanket term. If their ...*groan* - "essence" exists in some form, they're "preserved". As long as some mushy lifeforms are growing somewhere it's job is being done as far as it's concerned.

 

So the fact that the Leviathans weren't being killed by these Synthetics their thralls kept making doesn't matter to the Catalyst, it's only job is stopping Synthetics from becoming capable of threatening Organics as a whole by stopping Organics from being able to keep making them. It's still kind of flawed/idiotic, but going by it's rigid logic there's nothing proving it wrong. The annoying fact is we're told that the same thing happens every cycle, so we're to accept that the Catalyst is supported by the facts.

 

Eh. I dunno, the more I think about it the more I wonder why the Catalyst even did anything. The Leviathans were evidently capable of handling all the Synthetic uprisings of their era, essentially fulfilling the Reapers' role by themselves. I guess we can say that Synthetics advance much more rapidly than Organics so the only way to keep the situation under control is by stopping their creation at the source.

[von uber]

How does it keep the organic goo alive?

[voteDC]

Or the knowledge told to us by those who have existed for a billion years who tell us that the data is there. I'm crazy, I guess, since I put more stock in the perspective of billion+ year old immortals than I do in that of one single man who's sole contact with synthetics doesn't go back farther than a year. I'm looney like that.

The only billion year old perspective we had when originally encountering the endings was that of the enemy who wished to turn us all into paste.

I don't dislike the idea of hologram-kid in principal but I hated that we had to accept the word of enemy. I couldn't help but hear "If you do one of those things they will stop us, honest. In no way will you just be killed by either electrocution, disintegration, or explosion."

[Valmar]

It's also lore that fixing the issues you have with your father drastically improves your survival rate.
Or an abused, traumatised women just needs some more man love to sort her out and become a normal functioning member of society.
Or a bullet to the head can solve everything.
Or someone can be stupid enough to ask whether asari can mate with themselves.
And so on.

So I wouldn't take it too seriously.

 

You're implying that /I'M/ the one taking things too seriously? The one who keeps pointing out that this is just a fictional universe and people need to calm down? Mkay then.

 

 

If you go with "the lore says..." would you say the same if it took an equivalent position on a controversial real world issue?

 

Seriously? If you cannot see the significant difference between real-world issues and lore of a fictional gaming universe, I don't know what to tell you.

 

 

The only billion year old perspective we had when originally encountering the endings was that of the enemy who wished to turn us all into paste.
 

 

Originally yes but the DLC is lore. You cannot ignore the DLC lore just because it didn't come packaged in the original game. Also the reaper's are doing more than just turning us into paste, summarizing it down to just that doesn't do the reaper's enough justice. You're over-simplifying a complicated enemy.  If we all think it is so foolish of Shepard to think Asari needed aliens to reproduce then why don't we also criticize how Shepard constantly belittles the reapers as 'just machines'? IMO it all stems from people being far too emotional about it and not wanting to view the reapers as anything other than evil enemies to kill to be big goddamn heroes, hurrah!

 

I don't dislike the idea of hologram-kid in principal but I hated that we had to accept the word of enemy. I couldn't help but hear "If you do one of those things they will stop us, honest. In no way will you just be killed by either electrocution, disintegration, or explosion."

 

We're opposite on this. I dislike the starbrat on principle yet had nothing against what he says.

 

I have to say though that this is definitely a fault on your part and not the ending. If you actually only took away "this will stop us and not kill you!" from the starbrat then that is clearly your problem. The starbrat made it pretty clear that all the choices would result in Shepard's death. I think he even directly says "you will die" in the Control discussion. The fact that we can survive the destroy ending is surprising given that the starbrat heavily suggests that it will kill us - which it usually does unless you have high EMS.

[essarr71]

I'd say the Reapers go against the brats logic. If there was ever a synthetic race in prime position to wipe out life, Id be them. Not once in the eons they've been in control did they do it.

If this is just a code issue, maybe we should focus more on evil AI techs than organic/synthetic conflict.

[Farangbaa]

How does it keep the organic goo alive?

 

Define alive.

 

Is a prion alive? A virus?

[von uber]

Define alive.

Is a prion alive? A virus?

I meant actually continuing to replicate cells etc. Must need some form of food source surely, especially if it is human goo.

[Farangbaa]

I meant actually continuing to replicate cells etc. Must need some form of food source surely, especially if it is human goo.

 

So a spore is dead?

 

btw, using your definition for 'alive' means that both prions and viri are alive.

[essarr71]

He's talking abouy maintaining the goo not debating what should be classified as alive.

Are you suggesting human slushee is immune to the elements/decomposition? For billions of years, let alone a day?

[von uber]

He's talking abouy maintaining the goo not debating what should be classified as alive.

Exactly. I'm an engineer so interested in the practicalities.

[Valmar]

I find it extremely hard to take the addition of the Leviathans seriously.  It's not an emotional response that cause suspension of disbelief, but an intellectual one. Simply have too many questions of how an organic life form could survive for so long a time, even without the Reapers cycle interfering.

 

I feel similar. I had wished they stuck with the original Leviathan of Dis and actually had it be a reaper, not a whole other Leviathan. Even having Javik survive was a bit of a stretch, imo. Having the leviathans survive for over a billion years? I don't know. Seems a bit much to me. Though I'm still shocked by the near immortality we see in life such as the "water bear". Who knows. Life enjoys proving to us how wrong we are in many of the assumptions we make. Still seems a bit much though.

 

 

He's talking abouy maintaining the goo not debating what should be classified as alive.

Are you suggesting human slushee is immune to the elements/decomposition? For billions of years, let alone a day?

 

Clearly the reapers have perfected a way of preserving it. Is it really any less believable than having some guy jump in a beam of light and change all life in the galaxy?