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How much can we oppose the chantry?


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#51
LordParbr

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Vilegrim did express an interest in playing as a Dalish protagonist, and the Dalish have had very toxic relations with the Chantry of Andraste since the fall of the Dales. I don't see anything wrong with a main character not liking a particular organization. I'm sure most pro-templar players will be disinclined to work with the rebel mages when playing as a pro-templar Inquisitor, as one example.

That's true, but it isn't the point. Telling the Chantry to go f*** itself is all well and good, but stupid when you need as many allies as you can make.



#52
Doominike

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Technically it's mostly humans with a smaller fraction of elves (and one dwarf). The dalish don't believe in the maker, dwarves don't either and qunari don't worship at all



#53
LobselVith8

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That's true, but it isn't the point. Telling the Chantry to go f*** itself is all well and good, but stupid when you need as many allies as you can make.

 

Unless you're playing as a character who is a member of an ethnic group that has been a target of this organization for centuries, in which case it's a matter of personal opinion that any dealings with the Chantry of Andraste are not a good idea.



#54
XxPrincess(x)ThreatxX

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I hope to play a Dalish elf who converts to worshipping the Maker personally, i hope is a choice to side with the Chantry rather then them always seeing the inquisitor as a enemy
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#55
Senya

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I hope to play a Dalish elf who converts to worshipping the Maker personally, i hope is a choice to side with the Chantry rather then them always seeing the inquisitor as a enemy


Agreed.
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#56
Doominike

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Also, one can reverse that argument, the Inquisitor is the only person who can close the Breach, not helping with the Inquisition would be stupid for anyone



#57
Br3admax

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Unless you're playing as a character who is a member of an ethnic group that has been a target of this organization for centuries, in which case it's a matter of personal opinion that any dealings with the Chantry of Andraste are not a good idea.

Fun fact, that does not stop it from being religious intolerance. It's also still stupid because they're the most influential institution in the world where you are the minority. 


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#58
Dark Helmet

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Fun fact, that does not stop it from being religious intolerance. 

 

But it doesn't count as intolerance if you're an oppressed group!

 

Even though it looks the same as religious intolerance, feels the same as religious intolerance, and other religiously intolerant people would totally have your back were the positions reversed...


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#59
Shadow Fox

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Fun fact, that does not stop it from being religious intolerance. It's also still stupid because they're the most influential institution in the world where you are the minority. 

Exactly and if anything it makes that Elf a huge hypocrite.

 

And really who is the average Andrastian oppressing?



#60
LobselVith8

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Fun fact, that does not stop it from being religious intolerance.

 

Disliking the Chantry of Andraste because of the laws against magic, the imprisonment of mages, the prohibition against the elven religion, or it's support of Orlesian conquests of other nations, represent the actual issues at hand for some people who aren't inclined to share your view of the Andrastian Chantry.

 

It's also still stupid because they're the most influential institution in the world where you are the minority. 

 

They are bereft of an army and the Inquisition seems likely to fill in the power vacuum, and the organization could represent laws and issues that one could disagree with morally, like the OP's proposed Dalish protagonist, or a pro-mage protagonist from the Circle. You're more than welcome to play your Inquisitor however you want to, including playing as a pro-Chantry main character, but that doesn't mean others are inclined to share your opinion of the organization, or your trust of the Chantry.


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#61
Andres Hendrix

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People, there is a difference between hating doctrine, the religion itself, and hating the religious as people. The former is perfectly fine (in this sense we are talking about mere injunctions, ideas and stories), the later is clearly morally unscrupulous. It seems that people have to some extent conflated criticism of religion, with attacking the religious as people—such conflation is itself intellectually unprincipled, as it is a form of straw man. I would urge people to contemplate the quote from my above post,

 “Many religions now come before us with ingratiating smirks and outspread hands, like an unctuous merchant in a bazaar. They offer consolation and solidarity and uplift, competing as they do in a marketplace. But we have a right to remember how barbarically they behaved when they were strong and were making an offer that people could not refuse.”

If we continue to shut our eyes to the many forms of theocracy, bad doctrine and assorted Bronze Age nonsense, it will inevitably continue and the church (and other organizations like it) will take whatever it can to get away with its past crimes, and continue to push its backwards ideals onto people.

Think about the destruction, and torture (please don’t give me a stupid tu quoque argument, spare me the patronizing clichés) and stupidity that is caused, when faith is put above reason. It was not too long ago that the Catholic Church was in Uganda (1990s), during perhaps the worst AIDS epidemics that we have yet seen, saying ‘yes AIDS is a very bad disease but not quite as bad as condoms are bad!’ Why would they do this, because of doctrine, they want people to ‘set forth and multiply.’ And forget ye the cost (no thought for the morrow and such).

People now have the power to oppose the church, the church can no longer use force to make scientists go into house arrest (like they did to Galileo) it can no longer use force to put women into a sub-human role. Again I urge you all to think, what it was like when the theocrats had absolute power, and they were doing this, and ask yourself why you are not looking to bring these powerful organizations to some form of justice.

Powerful religious organizations rarely face the consequences of the crimes that they commit. The church has been hounded recently by the United Nations, for its systematic covering up of child rape. However the UN will (I think) never act upon the evidence it has gathered unless it gets public support. The church currently maintains power because of the passivity of the people.  The 'PC' status quo Left (as Orwell once called them) is the guiltiest of this, as they make excuses like, “oh well we would not want to OFFENED people by questioning their religion” thus obfuscating what is in front of their very noses, and letting the church carry on with its machinations.


Now in terms of the game, I would (or my Inquisitor would) hold the chantry to this exact same scrutiny. If there is a mechanic in DA:I (I doubt this) that would let me reform the chantry (and make it suffer a court for its crimes), and separate the Inquisitor’s state from it, I would. My prerogative would be to create a secular republic, one based on reason and liberty, not fear and faith.


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#62
QueenofPixals

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. My prerogative would be to create a secular republic, one based on reason and liberty, not fear and faith.

Fortunately you are not a game designer cause that would be one heck of a boring game.   With out controversy and unequal factions - there would be no basis for conflict and no game to play.  



#63
Andres Hendrix

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Fortunately you are not a game designer cause that would be one heck of a boring game.   With out controversy and unequal factions - there would be no basis for conflict and no game to play.  

So the American Republic did not fight a revolution to create their secular state? That was one hell of a conflict. Not to mention all of the micro conflicts within the society itself, and then later when the state faced its first foreign aggressors as a sovereign nation (e.g. Thomas Jefferson vs. the Barbary pirates).

Anyway, do you have a real argument or are you going to keep on with the ad hominem ("Fortunately you are not a game designer")? Lol
 

A number of republics have been born out of conflict, a passing glance at a world history book will teach you this.


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#64
DetcelferVisionary

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I can't wait to slay every mage I come across.  It shall be glorious!  Including the mages in my group! bwahah hahaha gyhahahaha!!!  


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#65
herkles

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People, there is a difference between hating doctrine, the religion itself, and hating the religious as people. The former is perfectly fine (in this sense we are talking about mere injunctions, ideas and stories), the later is clearly morally unscrupulous. It seems that people have to some extent conflated criticism of religion, with attacking the religious as people—such conflation is itself intellectually unprincipled, as it is a form of straw man. I would urge people to contemplate the quote from my above post,

 

 

This I tend to hate. I have no issue with as you said of critizing doctines and ideas, but I hate it when people generalize and go "religion is evil" or "all religious people are stupid and evil" This is where I draw the line. Critizie the religion, but the concept of religion is neutral; like any force it can guide people to the hieghts of charity and goodwill but it could also make another person commite the most horrorfic actions.

 

Also I tend to be a strong supporter of religious pluralism. my own faith(hellenismos/greek polytheism) encourages religious pluralism. 

 

 

relatedly, I tend to dislike idea that religion=stupid and backwards superstitions. I recall that you mentioned the Caliphate in an earlier post. The thing about the Islamic Caliphate was that it was a golden age of learning. It ushered in one of the coolest eras, where the islamic faith pushed science and learning further. as two examples our numbering system came out of this era as well as the whole concept of algebra. Not to mention the vast learning of the body, and astronomy. They did calculations to figure out the circumference of the earth during this era and were mostly right; they needed to in order to help build mosques that faced towards mecca, because well the earth is round. 

 

 

Now in terms of the game, I would (or my Inquisitor would) hold the chantry to this exact same scrutiny. If there is a mechanic in DA:I (I doubt this) that would let me reform the chantry (and make it suffer a court for its crimes), and separate the Inquisitor’s state from it, I would. My prerogative would be to create a secular republic, one based on reason and liberty, not fear and faith.

 

 

I doubt that. As a medeival setting, keep in mind that even the Merchant republics of Italy were still christians and followed the catholic church, though they often put money and greed above faith. But one couldn't call those republics secular by any definition.Though the Merchant republics are cool, they are not secular. I doubt IG you would be able to turn the free marches, Fereldan, Orlais, Antivia, Rivian, Nevarra, Tevinter, Anderfals and the Qun all into secular republics. Though if you do want medieval merchant republics, either Antivia or the free marches will be good here.

 

one of my favorite stories of Venice is how they were sad that they didn't have a great Saint. They had a minor saint, Thedore I believe, but anyways the venetians wanted a more important saint. so they chose saint Mark as legend has it that Mark would rest in Venice. Problem was that he was buried in Alexandria Egypt. So the venetians just were like "uh lets just steal it" and they totally did. they stole the corpse of saint mark and brought it back to Venice. IIRC they even painted or put some sculpture of them "returning" the body to venice on saint mark's basiclica :D

 

As for opposing the chantry, I do want options for both supporting it and gaining their favor or turning against it. My first character, Navilia is strongly pro-chantry, but I doubt my other characters will be so much supportive of the chantry. As a roleplayer I want options. 


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#66
Doominike

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*sigh*

 

If people are gonna argue religion could you limit it to Thedas religions ? Arguments about real world ones never get settled



#67
Senya

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Yeah, seriously. I couldn't have put it better myself, herkles.

#68
Senya

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*sigh*
 
If people are gonna argue religion could you limit it to Thedas religions ? Arguments about real world ones never get settled


Agreed. I personally see justification for the Circles, Tranquillity, and every Exalted March in Thedas. Pretty much everything but Kirkwall where everything was ****, so, naturally, it's Circle would be too.

#69
thesuperdarkone2

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Well a stream revealed one major way we could damage the chantry:

 

Spoiler



#70
Andres Hendrix

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This I tend to hate. I have no issue with as you said of critizing doctines and ideas, but I hate it when people generalize and go "religion is evil" or "all religious people are stupid and evil" This is where I draw the line. Critizie the religion, but the concept of religion is neutral; like any force it can guide people to the hieghts of charity and goodwill but it could also make another person commite the most horrorfic actions.

 

Also I tend to be a strong supporter of religious pluralism. my own faith(hellenismos/greek polytheism) encourages religious pluralism. 

 

 

relatedly, I tend to dislike idea that religion=stupid and backwards superstitions. I recall that you mentioned the Caliphate in an earlier post. The thing about the Islamic Caliphate was that it was a golden age of learning. It ushered in one of the coolest eras, where the islamic faith pushed science and learning further. as two examples our numbering system came out of this era as well as the whole concept of algebra. Not to mention the vast learning of the body, and astronomy. They did calculations to figure out the circumference of the earth during this era and were mostly right; they needed to in order to help build mosques that faced towards mecca, because well the earth is round. 

 

 

 

 

I doubt that. As a medeival setting, keep in mind that even the Merchant republics of Italy were still christians and followed the catholic church, though they often put money and greed above faith. But one couldn't call those republics secular by any definition.Though the Merchant republics are cool, they are not secular. I doubt IG you would be able to turn the free marches, Fereldan, Orlais, Antivia, Rivian, Nevarra, Tevinter, Anderfals and the Qun all into secular republics. Though if you do want medieval merchant republics, either Antivia or the free marches will be good here.

 

one of my favorite stories of Venice is how they were sad that they didn't have a great Saint. They had a minor saint, Thedore I believe, but anyways the venetians wanted a more important saint. so they chose saint Mark as legend has it that Mark would rest in Venice. Problem was that he was buried in Alexandria Egypt. So the venetians just were like "uh lets just steal it" and they totally did. they stole the corpse of saint mark and brought it back to Venice. IIRC they even painted or put some sculpture of them "returning" the body to venice on saint mark's basiclica :D

 

As for opposing the chantry, I do want options for both supporting it and gaining their favor or turning against it. My first character, Navilia is strongly pro-chantry, but I doubt my other characters will be so much supportive of the chantry. As a roleplayer I want options. 

I at no point called religious people evil, not once ( I was highly critical of despotic theocrats); I was very clear in separating religon and the religious "People, there is a difference between hating doctrine, the religion itself, and hating the religious as people. The former is perfectly fine (in this sense we are talking about mere injunctions, ideas and stories), the later is clearly morally unscrupulous. It seems that people have to some extent conflated criticism of religion, with attacking the religious as people—such conflation is itself intellectually unprincipled, as it is a form of straw man." A straw man that you have just committed, and should apologize for.

 In my post (on the previous page), you will see that I support religious pluralism, the only way to truly do so is by having a state that is free from the monastic notions of one religion. The secular state in fact allows for religious liberty, look at the United Staes constitution, and look at the religious diversity in American society.  

I have in no way made an association fallacy. I gave specific examples of harmful doctrine, i.e. the Catholic Churches inane policy on condom use. If you want to argue that religion, especially the Catholic Church does not have backwards doctrine, then explain how the aforementioned is not backwards and harmful. How about you explain how the church’s support of Fascism during WWII was not harmful, and backwards. Why don’t you show real evidence of the existence of a Christian God--instead of running to the Bible, circular logic, and confirmation bias? Explain how the concept of hell, an eternity of torture is not an evil concept, especially when it is used to terrify children

Explain how the church’s covering up of child rape was not wrong. Explain how the theocratic kangaroo courts of Pakistan, when they sentence women to be raped and stoned to death, are not backwards and wrong. Religions come from the bawling and mewling infancy of our species, before we had a theory of evolution, before we had so much as a germ theory of disease (etc) and it shows.

Your attempt at defaming what I have written is intellectually corrupt, and you should apologize.



#71
Doominike

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Agreed. I personally see justification for the Circles, Tranquillity, and every Exalted March in Thedas. Pretty much everything but Kirkwall where everything was ****, so, naturally, it's Circle would be too.

Ironically I disagree with everything after "Agreed"



#72
Senya

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Ironically I disagree with everything after "Agreed"

And that's fine. That's the point of the game. :)

I like taking this position. The other positions are too mainstream. :P

#73
Senya

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I Why don’t you show real evidence of the existence of a Christian God--instead of running to the Bible, circular logic, and confirmation bias? .
Your attempt at defaming what I have written is intellectually corrupt, and you should apologize.


He/She said she wasn't Christian. And demanding an apology for arguing with you is rubbish, intellectual bullying, even if you feel what you wrote was misrepresented in their response. Now stop bringing this thread off-topic or go find someone willing to argue with you or I will report you for hijacking a thread and violating this forum's rules of conduct.

Please review the rules: http://forum.bioware...c/3-site-rules/

#74
KaiserShep

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I just wanna troll the chanters.

 

"A chanter says what?"


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#75
Lulupab

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I just wanna troll the chanters.

 

"A chanter says what?"

 

Based on what I have seen you will not be disappointed. The quizy can be quite the troll.  :P