63 réponses à ce sujet

[congokong]

I always rival Carver (I am pro mage) so I see where you're coming from. He act like a total child in a mans body. I also believe that it was Leandra who also pin points the blame for Bethany's death on the player if I recall correctly. It's been a while since I played the game.

 

Even after all the bitching and playing the blame game on the player for Bethany's death he actually redeemed himself at the very end, as a Templar, who stood up for you against his superior. That is well enough for me. If Carver truly despises his sibling wouldn't he stood up for Meredith, and had taken her side? Wouldn't he had faught against his sibling to the very end, to the death? This is not your typical sibling rivalry.

 

Have you seen everybody loves raymond? It's a similar scenario.
 

 

 

It's clear you haven't played the game in a while since your memory is fuzzy about a few things.

 

1. Leandra blames Hawke in her grief during the prologue, but a year later in Kirkwall Carver does indeed pin the blame on Hawke.

2. Carver only stands against Meredith when she goes completely insane. At that point all the templars are wary of her including Cullen. Initially if you oppose Meredith she'll remind him of his duty and he'll comply.

 

 

Here's a refresher for you.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=VCZ7HJx_PVs

 

 

Keep in mind him becoming a templar in the first place is just one more reason not to like him. It makes him the biggest hypocrite. Their order is designed to take mages from their families and yet he spent his life as a mage family accomplice. Then when he becomes a templar he doesn't turn in his own family. From Hawke's perspective that's a point in his favor but from an unbiased view it's just another reason to not like him. So it's basically ok for him to lock up other families' mages but not his own? All the more reason him becoming a templar in general is a dick move despite understanding his reasons (sibling rivalry defiance after feeling betrayed).

 

And yes, I've seen Everybody Loves Raymond. It's why, like Carver, I think Robert was an interesting character but not too likable; especially regarding his bias towards his brother. This was especially prevalent when he'd always side with Debra in any conflict with her and Raymond.

[BroBear Berbil]

Aveline really was a ****** there for actually saying not to hire him.

 

Agree. Aveline is by far my favorite character in DA2 and I'd romance her in a heartbeat, but this is something that really bugged me about her. She's a woman of strong character but in this case her ideals screwed Carver over and left him in a desperate situation when he was more than qualified for the guard.

 

Also, Carver never once made me question his character. He had a strong sense of right and wrong. I don't see Carver's desire to make a name for himself to be necessarily bad, but if Aveline felt that it was, she should have helped him and tried to be a good influence for him. It's not like everyone else in the guard were paragons themselves.

[SugarBabe49]

I have to admit - I didn't like Carver when I first played as a mage and ended up getting rivalry points with him so my second playthrough - I was determined, I was going to raise my friendship with Carver and I was surprised by the change.

 

The one thing - I feel that annoys people regarding Carver - is you can't exactly play as a pro-mage with him in the party. Carver loves his older sibling, he doesn't want to lose them after losing Bethany so going against the Templars is what causes him to disapprove. Looking back on it, it dawned on me that Carver disapproves because you are risking the Templars' wrath.

 

To him, you are a mage who is going out of their way to alert the templars to their abilties and each time you do so, you are risking the chances of them taking you away or getting killed.

 

By playing nice with the Templars - he approves and I saw that as he is approving that you are protecting yourself, hiding your abilities and decreasing your chances of being caught out.

 

I know people were even more annoyed that if you left Carver behind, he joins the Templars but - as above - Carver has a conversation with Aveline (I always get this at the beginning) about joining the Guardsmen and she admits that she was the reason why Carver had never been accepted.

 

Also if you consider that both Hawke and Aveline would also stop Carver from joining any gangs - he is literally left with no choices. He can't make a name for himself, to prove his worth (not to others, but to himself) because no-one is willing to give him a chance.

 

Plus - if you leave him behind on the Deep Road quest - you have sent him a message saying you don't trust him to have your back in the Deep Roads and I think that what hurts him more so he turns to the Templars (Out of spite and/or out of desperation).

 

For me - I always take Carver with me into the Deep Roads (along with Anders) because the Grey Wardens IS the best option for him. He gets away from Hawke, the Grey Wardens are presumably not that invested in Hawke (who seems to get themselves caught in the middle) whereas as Templar - he has got to be on guard constantly. His sibling is a mage and he has not handed them over to the Templars so if the Templars were to find out (it does become an open secret in the end), he could be punished so he is STILL in Hawke's shadow as a templar.

 

If you talk to Carver when you get the letters, he admits how jealous he was that their father never paid attention to him since he had two mage children who needed his guidance and when you take him on the Legacy DLC - he begins to understand Hawke and their father a little bit more.

 

For me - Carver undergoes a major character development. He started off as this teenage boy (he is only 18 at the beginning) who has a major chip on his shoulder, who wants to prove himself to world only to be held back by everyone who should have been encouraging him. If you friend him, he comes through - he matures with the Grey Wardens.

 

He even comes back to his sibling's side in the final battle (calls you out if you side with the Templars because he expected to protect Hawke from them, not to see Hawke with them) and tells them he has their back - that it feels right to be by Hawke's side again in battle. And he does all of this knowing that Grey Wardens are neutral but he doesn't care.

 

(and I kinda went off - sorry! Carver is one of my favourite when it comes to Dragon Age and I just adore this guy...maybe too much...)

[Lord Raijin]

It's clear you haven't played the game in a while since your memory is fuzzy about a few things.

 

1. Leandra blames Hawke in her grief during the prologue, but a year later in Kirkwall Carver does indeed pin the blame on Hawke.

2. Carver only stands against Meredith when she goes completely insane. At that point all the templars are wary of her including Cullen. Initially if you oppose Meredith she'll remind him of his duty and he'll comply.

 

 

Here's a refresher for you.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=VCZ7HJx_PVs

 

 

Keep in mind him becoming a templar in the first place is just one more reason not to like him. It makes him the biggest hypocrite. Their order is designed to take mages from their families and yet he spent his life as a mage family accomplice. Then when he becomes a templar he doesn't turn in his own family. From Hawke's perspective that's a point in his favor but from an unbiased view it's just another reason to not like him. So it's basically ok for him to lock up other families' mages but not his own? All the more reason him becoming a templar in general is a dick move despite understanding his reasons (sibling rivalry defiance after feeling betrayed).

 

And yes, I've seen Everybody Loves Raymond. It's why, like Carver, I think Robert was an interesting character but not too likable; especially regarding his bias regarding his brother. This was especially prevalent when he'd always side with Debra in any conflict with her and Raymond.

 

 

Carver is a soldier who obeys orders from his superiors. When he complied with Meredith was only because that is the solider instinct that he has, and he had no other choice but to obey or risk being arrested for insurrection, which could very well in result in execution. This further proves that Aveline was full of crap when she said "I was an officer. And I follow orders." with "I also think of others before myself. You seem tired of that, and that's dangerous." I firmly put the blame on Aveline for Carvers final decision of becoming a Templar. What other choices can he choose as far as employment goes that fits well for his skills and experience? Aveline screwed him up of ever becoming a guard.

 

It may seem hypocritical of Carver to be taking away mages from their families, and carting them to the circle whereas his brother/sister is a mage is roaming free on the streets, and untouched. If you remember back when the Qunari invaded Kirkwall after Meredith saved you, and your companions from getting killed by a Saarebas she recognizes you almost instantly. She comments about you being Ser Carvers brother, and that she was surprise to see that he has never mention about you. If you select the dialogue of "We need to head their quickly She response with "Good. I'll overlook your own use of magic, for the moment." If you select any of the other wheel she becomes irritated, and threatening: "You think I'm a fool do you? I saw you using magic. You have once chance and once chance to prove yourself, apostate. Do not test me."Carver took the liberty of protecting his mage sibling from Templar presence, despite being one of them. Carver isn't the only one who is protecting his family member who is a mage. Theirs a Templar (I think Thrask??) who protected his daughter to turned into an abomination. If you want to call him a hypocrite then you might as well be calling other Templar's hypocrites as well.

 

As for Everybody Loves Raymond. The name of the show is incorrectly named, IMO. Should be called Everybody Hates Raymond considering the fact that Robert, the true successor of the family, being a police sergeant, is treated as second class citizen whereas the "famous sportswriter" gets the royal treatment. For Debra...Can't help but to side with her most of the time considering the fact that she made the mistake of marrying a complete idiot. In the real world someone like Raymond would never find a woman that can handle his mental requirements, and being able to handle his mother.

 

Carver and Robert are very similar in that respects.

[ummiehummie]

I love Carver!

[congokong]

Carver is a soldier who obeys orders from his superiors. When he complied with Meredith was only because that is the solider instinct that he has, and he had no other choice but to obey or risk being arrested for insurrection, which could very well in result in execution. This further proves that Aveline was full of crap when she said "I was an officer. And I follow orders." with "I also think of others before myself. You seem tired of that, and that's dangerous." I firmly put the blame on Aveline for Carvers final decision of becoming a Templar. What other choices can he choose as far as employment goes that fits well for his skills and experience? Aveline screwed him up of ever becoming a guard.

 

It may seem hypocritical of Carver to be taking away mages from their families, and carting them to the circle whereas his brother/sister is a mage is roaming free on the streets, and untouched. If you remember back when the Qunari invaded Kirkwall after Meredith saved you, and your companions from getting killed by a Saarebas she recognizes you almost instantly. She comments about you being Ser Carvers brother, and that she was surprise to see that he has never mention about you. If you select the dialogue of "We need to head their quickly She response with "Good. I'll overlook your own use of magic, for the moment." If you select any of the other wheel she becomes irritated, and threatening: "You think I'm a fool do you? I saw you using magic. You have once chance and once chance to prove yourself, apostate. Do not test me."Carver took the liberty of protecting his mage sibling from Templar presence, despite being one of them. Carver isn't the only one who is protecting his family member who is a mage. Theirs a Templar (I think Thrask??) who protected his daughter to turned into an abomination. If you want to call him a hypocrite then you might as well be calling other Templar's hypocrites as well.

 

As for Everybody Loves Raymond. The name of the show is incorrectly named, IMO. Should be called Everybody Hates Raymond considering the fact that Robert, the true successor of the family, being a police sergeant, is treated as second class citizen whereas the "famous sportswriter" gets the royal treatment. For Debra...Can't help but to side with her most of the time considering the fact that she made the mistake of marrying a complete idiot. In the real world someone like Raymond would never find a woman that can handle his mental requirements, and being able to handle his mother.

 

Carver and Robert are very similar in that respects.

If you're going to argue try refuting things I've actually said. I've never defended Aveline and I've never said other templars weren't hypocrites too. It just shows the order's corruption when its members can't follow their own rules.

 

Carver could find something else to do besides joining an order that his family had been hiding from all his life. Everyone has choices. He also had the choice to refuse Meredith at the risk of his own safety simply because it was wrong to murder the mages. Shitty situation (but not uncommon in war), but he dug his own grave by joining them in the first place.

 

All you've been doing is explaining Carver's bad behavior. Everyone has reasons, but it doesn't justify it.

[Kenshen]

I hated Carver the first dozen or so times I played a mage but he has grown on me.  Legacy really helped to open my eyes and gave me a chance to see what it was like growing up with 2 mage siblings.   I am sure dad sent more time with the mage kids than him but he wasn't ignored and it was Malcolm who taught him the basics of swordplay. 

 

I do have a question for you all, in act 1 when we get the quest from the dwarf which leads to meeting Fenris we will get rival points with Carver if we except the quest with him in the group.  I never really understood why since we are all about making coin and that is another job like any other and one I wouldn't even consider the most questionable ethics wise.  Is it because it involves smuggling or is it a possible templar candy pipeline he doesn't like?  For me this shows the kind of character he has and shows how wrong Aveline was about him...if I am reading that situation right.

[TheChosenOne]

Warden Carver> Circle Bethany > Warden Bethany > Templar Carver   

[SporkFu]

I hated Carver the first dozen or so times I played a mage but he has grown on me.  Legacy really helped to open my eyes and gave me a chance to see what it was like growing up with 2 mage siblings.   I am sure dad sent more time with the mage kids than him but he wasn't ignored and it was Malcolm who taught him the basics of swordplay. 

 

I do have a question for you all, in act 1 when we get the quest from the dwarf which leads to meeting Fenris we will get rival points with Carver if we except the quest with him in the group.  I never really understood why since we are all about making coin and that is another job like any other and one I wouldn't even consider the most questionable ethics wise.  Is it because it involves smuggling or is it a possible templar candy pipeline he doesn't like?  For me this shows the kind of character he has and shows how wrong Aveline was about him...if I am reading that situation right.

I just got the letter at Gamlen's house about this quest. I haven't talked to the dwarf yet. I'm thinking about going out to the Bone Pit first, but I would like to add the sexy Isabela to the group before doing that, since she will be my eventual LI. So much to do, the life of an apostate fereldan refugee is never dull. 

[Lord Raijin]

If you're going to argue try refuting things I've actually said. I've never defended Aveline and I've never said other templars weren't hypocrites too. It just shows the order's corruption when its members can't follow their own rules.

 

Carver could find something else to do besides joining an order that his family had been hiding from all his life. Everyone has choices. He also had the choice to refuse Meredith at the risk of his own safety simply because it was wrong to murder the mages. Shitty situation (but not uncommon in war), but he dug his own grave by joining them in the first place.

 

All you've been doing is explaining Carver's bad behavior. Everyone has reasons, but it doesn't justify it.

 

Did I accused you of defending Aveline? No I have not. I simply brought her up because you said that Carver was a hypocrite for joining the Templar order when in fact he tried getting a job position else where prior to joining the Templar order. They were the only ones that accepted him. I don't know how that would make him a hypocrite. Perhaps their were other motivations and other reasons behind joining the order. Perhaps it was the best way to truly protect his brother/sister from getting captured. Who knows.

 

No it doesn't show the orders corruption when their own members can't follow their own rules...in fact Templar's are suppose to protect mages... not just hunt them down and kill them. Sometimes you need to bend the rule in order to do your perform your job right. For an example; The situation with Knight-Captain Evangeline in the White Spire.

 

Where else could of Carver went to to get decent employment in Kirkwall? Working for the same smuggler/Mercenary company that he was forced to work for in order to gain access to the city? That's low. Like I previously said Aveline screwed carver up big time when she purposely ruined any chance of him working as a guard.

[Krypplingz]

-snip snip-

I do have a question for you all, in act 1 when we get the quest from the dwarf which leads to meeting Fenris we will get rival points with Carver if we except the quest with him in the group.  I never really understood why since we are all about making coin and that is another job like any other and one I wouldn't even consider the most questionable ethics wise.  Is it because it involves smuggling or is it a possible templar candy pipeline he doesn't like?  For me this shows the kind of character he has and shows how wrong Aveline was about him...if I am reading that situation right.

 

You are retrieving a very powerful drug for a jumpy foreigner, who is operating on the local drug lords turf and intends to sell it to the churches special police group. The same police group that is looking for people like you. If they catch you, you'll be imprisoned and your family might be executed for trying to hide you. If the crime group catches you, you'll be chopped into itty bitty pieces and sent floating down the river. The foreigner is really jumpy, reveals the nature of the cargo far to quickly and if he gets caught, he'll probably reveal that you were involved in this whole mess. 

From Carvers point of view: It's illegal, way to risky and will get you into more trouble down the line. (Carver disapproves (-5))

[congokong]

Did I accused you of defending Aveline? No I have not. I simply brought her up because you said that Carver was a hypocrite for joining the Templar order when in fact he tried getting a job position else where prior to joining the Templar order. They were the only ones that accepted him. I don't know how that would make him a hypocrite. Perhaps their were other motivations and other reasons behind joining the order. Perhaps it was the best way to truly protect his brother/sister from getting captured. Who knows.

 

No it doesn't show the orders corruption when their own members can't follow their own rules...in fact Templar's are suppose to protect mages... not just hunt them down and kill them. Sometimes you need to bend the rule in order to do your perform your job right. For an example; The situation with Knight-Captain Evangeline in the White Spire.

 

Where else could of Carver went to to get decent employment in Kirkwall? Working for the same smuggler/Mercenary company that he was forced to work for in order to gain access to the city? That's low. Like I previously said Aveline screwed carver up big time when she purposely ruined any chance of him working as a guard.

Your logic is retarded. He can't find work in the guard, so he had to join the templars? That's like saying I couldn't find work at the local grocery store so I need to become a drug dealer. Carver's even better off because his family becomes rich after the expedition.

 

It doesn't show corruption for the templars being hypocrites? BS. What Thrask did with his daughter had nothing to do with "bending the rules in order to do his job" (more BS) but just not wanting to lock up his daughter despite doing the same to many other families.' Templars are supposed to protect mages by LOCKING THEM UP.

 

 

This conversation has gotten so side-tracked from your original premise of "I saw no reason to dislike Carver but only pity him." Apparently having reasons for being a douchebag makes it ok in your mind.

[Sir DeLoria]

I like Carver a lot more than Bethany.

Bethany might be nice, but she's bland as a piece of cardboard.

[congokong]

I like Carver a lot more than Bethany.

Bethany might be nice, but she's bland as a piece of cardboard.

It depends on how we define "like." I liked Carver more as a character but Bethany far more as a person; the kind I'd want to be associated with in real life.