101 réponses à ce sujet

[fizzypop]

Awww... I wont really classify that as a "Bad". It is actually better for immersion imho. In the previous 2 games, I am kinda a slave to the friendship/rivalry bar. So many "To ****** off or not to ****** off.."moment. 

To be honest it breaks my immersion for it to pop up "Cassie approves". So it was already immersion breaking. Sometimes we break immersion to make a game more fun and accessible. I mean read what I said about health bars, that itself is immersion breaking because it isn't part of a "realistic" world yet we still want it because it makes the game more accessible and fun to play. This is just going to cause needless frustration.

[seraphymon]

No this is not a case of hypocrisy. Your critiques on DA:I were made based on your opinion, and I thought your opinions were too critical. I just disagree with them. Your math however, was objectively wrong. Unless your overall score has nothing to do with averaging out your scores, then I guess the joke's on me. Not trying to be a jerk here, but you called me out on being a hypocrite, so I responded.

That all depends if she weighs each category equally. Then the math would probably be wrong. However if she values one area more than another, then that area could raise the or lower the average.

[Kenadian]

As far as the limitations in hair styles go, modding will take care of that. If you ever play on PC that is.

[MzHyde]

Well, I enjoyed this. Not being able to view approval/disapproval for companions is gonna drive me up the wall for sure. As far as hair goes, I just wish the qunari had better styles since I can find at least one style I like for all the other races but not so much for them. Don't think the lack of healing will bother me too much. It'll be interesting to see how that works in-game actually. You may have been jumping the gun on the combat. I know the issues you were having are easily rectified by using the tactical cam. Please do give it a try. Can't see your grade on that aspect as accurate until you do.   

[spnccarman]

As far as the limitations in hair styles go, modding will take care of that. If you ever play on PC that is.

good luck modding frostbite 

[Varus Praetor]

I actually did play at launch and remember it well. There were A LOT of issues with Vanilla D3, but it wasn't in part of the attribute system. It was the loot system, and it has since been fixed. It took awhile for the devs to work out the kinks, but right now Diablo 3 is an incredible game with tons of builds. 

 

http://www.eurogamer...own-accusations

 

Literally one of the very first sites that came up on google when I searched for "diablo 3 attribute points removed."  Are there any gaming publications doing stories about this issue in DA:I?  I didn't look past the first two pages of google searches, so I'm guessing no.  As I said, bad analogy.

 

The D3 loot system is irrelevant.  Gamers are plenty capable of complaining about multiple issues at once (see the review in the OP).  I agree that the loot system was the biggest issue.  To say that attribute selection removal wasn't a problem is simply false though.

[Shahadem]

http://www.eurogamer...own-accusations

 

Literally one of the very first sites that came up on google when I searched for "diablo 3 attribute points removed."  Are there any gaming publications doing stories about this issue in DA:I?  I didn't look past the first two pages of google searches, so I'm guessing no.  As I said, bad analogy.

 

The D3 loot system is irrelevant.  Gamers are plenty capable of complaining about multiple issues at once (see the review in the OP).  I agree that the loot system was the biggest issue.  To say that attribute selection removal wasn't a problem is simply false though.

 

It wasn't a problem. It was just something that people complained about because it was different from D2. But in D2 the attribute system was really nothing but a trap for the unwary, that's why it was altered for D3 and why the alteration was actually an improvement even if some people weren't able to realize that.

 

Of course there actually are attributes in D3 and they are actually more meaningful than the attributes in D2, especially because D3 fixed a problem  D2 had where ability damage did not increase with an increase in your character's base damage.

[Shahadem]

To give you some sort of reactivity, but no actual numbers. The devs said the numbers felt too "gamey" to them. *shrug*

 

Which is funny because the numbers are still there. Only now you can't see those numbers so you are more likely to be screwed unless you spend even more time using a guide to help you play the game.

 

If anything, this change actually made it even more video-gamey.

[ashwind]

To be honest it breaks my immersion for it to pop up "Cassie approves". So it was already immersion breaking. Sometimes we break immersion to make a game more fun and accessible. I mean read what I said about health bars, that itself is immersion breaking because it isn't part of a "realistic" world yet we still want it because it makes the game more accessible and fun to play. This is just going to cause needless frustration.

 

Not so much for me tho. When you do something that people like or dislike, you can sense it but you do not know how much have you pleased or insulted that person.

 

For me, tis like: 

- If it says: -10 friendship Leliana.... I probably wont do it.

- If it says -1 friendship Leliana I would probably do it, then go buy her a cheap Andraste postcard for +2 fangirl friendship. 

 

If it only tells me that Leliana does not approve.... hrmf....     I probably wont do it if I am planning to romance her.

[cindercatz]

Hopefully approval is more complex now, where you might have platonic quality and romantic level tracked seperately, and political/organizational approval seperate from personal, and litmus type points where no matter how they feel about you, they aren't going to budge on certain important choices. You could have a lot more depth and complexity, so a bar meter just isn't a good fit. You could have drawn out betrayals and espionage, friends who become enemies while they still love you, companions who don't like you at all, but are loyal to the cause, etc.  If on the other hand, it's otherwise the same system, I... No, I'd still like it hidden, just because it incentivises roleplay and sticking to your honest characterization. I like 'so and so will remember that' type messages personally, more like Walking Dead's plot choice notifications. I think some kind of visual representation of it is fine as an option though.

 

edit: examples

[robertthebard]

The more I hear about the approval system I'm more interested in figuring out wtf they are doing with it. If there is no bar why bother to collect the information at all?

Makes sense to me. I can't look at my friend's character sheets and see how they feel about what I'm doing. This will promote more playing my character, than playing the approval game with them. If they don't like me, oh well. The companions know how they feel, and that's information that they may, or may not be willing to share with you. This more accurately reflects that, in so far as I can tell.

[Heimdall]

To be honest it breaks my immersion for it to pop up "Cassie approves". So it was already immersion breaking. Sometimes we break immersion to make a game more fun and accessible. I mean read what I said about health bars, that itself is immersion breaking because it isn't part of a "realistic" world yet we still want it because it makes the game more accessible and fun to play. This is just going to cause needless frustration.

I think the idea was to encourage players to view their relationships with companions as something that evolves more organically, rather than a stat bar.  That was the idea behind removing the ability to gift spam, the change to friendship/rivalry dichotomy was another attempt to tackle the concept.  I think I'd prefer to have a definite indicator though.

[Dutchess]

Makes sense to me. I can't look at my friend's character sheets and see how they feel about what I'm doing. This will promote more playing my character, than playing the approval game with them. If they don't like me, oh well. The companions know how they feel, and that's information that they may, or may not be willing to share with you. This more accurately reflects that, in so far as I can tell.

 

But you do get to see that they approve or disapprove of something you say or do (Cassandra slightly approves, Leliana strongly disapproves, etc.). You just don't know the exact number. 

[elrofrost]

Ugh... Substracting an entire grade because there's not a lot of long hair options for females, even though the CC is literally the best Bioware's ever done? Really? 

 

Healing vs. No Healing. There are really - really - good reasons why it was removed from the game. Namely that DA:O and DA2 both had characters with infinite health bars thanks to those mechanics. Games like LoL almost entirely removed dedicated healers because it offered no counterplay. Enemies use their entire skill set to bring you down to half-HP, only to have it slapped back-on by a heal. It's an frustratingly uninteractive mechanic unless given a significant cost - at which point players do not feel that is worth the investment. 

 

The attribute thing, while it feels like you had more freedom to customize your character in previous games, you would ultimately still allocate points in a pre-determined way based on your class and subclass. Mages would always invest in magic and willpower. Warriors in constitution and strength. Rogues in dexterity and cunning. Always. The freedom manually allocating your own points gave you was superficial at best, and meaningless at worst. Unless every class acted like Blood Mage, which compelled mages to dump points in constitution to yield more benefits, then this argument may have some weight. Personally the stats just felt like a way to gate equipment. 

 

Since we disagree on these points and everything else in your review is positive, I can anticipate that I will absolutely eat the living pants off of Dragon Age: Inquisition. 

 

I don't agree. One of the best things about DAO (and other games like Skyrim) is that you can create hybrid classes. Want a rouge with some warrior abilities - who can use bigger weapons and armor? Give him more strength and constitution. Sure, he'll have less dex and cun but it's your rogue. You should be able to create what you want. Why would BW not include this? Is it to make it easier to approach for the masses? Or was it a balance issue?

This isn't gonna upset me too much. Usually I play a straight up warrior or rogue but still.

I do agree with the comments about not needing a dedicated healer. About time. In DA2 i took care to make sure Anders was not a healing mage. Potions and abilities were good enough for me. Now of course, in MMO's it's VERY different. I mean, you got a raid to heal.

 

To the OP: Thanks for your review.

 

[Heimdall]

I don't agree. One of the best things about DAO (and other games like Skyrim) is that you can create hybrid classes. Want a rouge with some warrior abilities - who can use bigger weapons and armor? Give him more strength and constitution. Sure, he'll have less dex and cun but it's your rogue. You should be able to create what you want.

This isn't gonna upset me too much. Usually I play a straight up warrior or rogue but still.

I do agree about the comments about not needing a dedicated healer. About time. In DA2 i took care to make sure Anders was not a healing mage. Potions and abilities were good enough for me. Now of course, in MMO's it's VERY different. I mean, you got a raid to heal.

I personally have a strict all or nothing stance on classes.  If the system has classes, it should work very hard to differentiate them, and if hybrids exist they should be confined to specializations like Arcane Warrior.  Which was why I criticized DAO for its weak class system when it first came out.  Now, if there is no class system like Skyrim and you have the power to freely build your character however you like, I'm all for it, but a class system should never try to be like a classless system.

 

Just me though, I gather that my views might be a little peculiar.

[robertthebard]

But you do get to see that they approve or disapprove of something you say or do (Cassandra slightly approves, Leliana strongly disapproves, etc.). You just don't know the exact number.

Art imitating life? I can tell by reactions if my friends approve or disapprove out here in the real world, and it, from what I have seen, works exactly like that in game. They use that system since maybe they can't get animations that show approval/disapproval, so that you get a feel for what they're about, instead of "Well, I have X amount of approval here, I can fudge on my reaction and not lose enough to matter" scenarios. This could be a very nice system that forces us to actually play our characters, as I said earlier, instead of the Affection Game^TM.

[Shahadem]

Makes sense to me. I can't look at my friend's character sheets and see how they feel about what I'm doing. This will promote more playing my character, than playing the approval game with them. If they don't like me, oh well. The companions know how they feel, and that's information that they may, or may not be willing to share with you. This more accurately reflects that, in so far as I can tell.

 

Your friends also don't have an internal approval stat for how they feel about you. That's the most important point that you didn't consider. Saying you can't see your friends' character sheets so a hidden system makes sense fails to realize why you can't see your friends' character sheets. It is because they don't have one. But video game characters do and everything is numbers and in many cases those numbers can be changed arbitrarily and capriciously. Thus not allowing a player to see those numbers while allowing the player to see every other number on the character sheet was a poor decision.

 

The affection game still exists with the only change being now you can't see the stat. This is a terrible change as it adds nothing. If they wanted to do away with an affection bar they simply should have done away with the stat entirely.

[Morroian]

The affection game still exists with the only change being now you can't see the stat. This is a terrible change as it adds nothing. If they wanted to do away with an affection bar they simply should have done away with the stat entirely.

 

Yep I wonder how it affects the chance of romance as well, are you more likely to miss the chance at the romance you want cause you do not pick up the right cues?

[Kenadian]

good luck modding frostbite 

Doesn't matter. Modders will find a way.

[Frocharocha]

I knew it! The gameplay in comparassion with old ones is dissapointing. Too damn bad. I can'`t believed they actually changed it that much. Sing, but overall juding by your final veredic, it's a must buy for the fans of the series :/

[elrofrost]

Doesn't matter. Modders will find a way.

QFT.

 

Modders will find a way.

[robertthebard]

Your friends also don't have an internal approval stat for how they feel about you. That's the most important point that you didn't consider. Saying you can't see your friends' character sheets so a hidden system makes sense fails to realize why you can't see your friends' character sheets. It is because they don't have one. But video game characters do and everything is numbers and in many cases those numbers can be changed arbitrarily and capriciously. Thus not allowing a player to see those numbers while allowing the player to see every other number on the character sheet was a poor decision.
 
The affection game still exists with the only change being now you can't see the stat. This is a terrible change as it adds nothing. If they wanted to do away with an affection bar they simply should have done away with the stat entirely.

Sure they do, if they feel like they're putting up with too much crap from me, they leave. They have their own internalized "meter" that says enough is enough, and they go, or, they approve and they stay, all internally. Can I see signs along the way? Surely, and some will say something, one way or the other, so this system now works exactly like it does in RL, only instead of a smile and nod, or a frown and shaking their heads we get Comp mildly approves/disapproves, cluing us to what they're feeling about what we're doing. The friends in question, in that post, are NPCs in my circle, not friends out here in the world.

The fact that these numbers can be artificially manipulated is exactly why this is a good call. No schmoozing to schmooze to keep affection where you think it needs to be. Now people will focus more on playing their characters, but I already said this.

[KaiserShep]

Your friends also don't have an internal approval stat for how they feel about you. That's the most important point that you didn't consider. Saying you can't see your friends' character sheets so a hidden system makes sense fails to realize why you can't see your friends' character sheets. It is because they don't have one. But video game characters do and everything is numbers and in many cases those numbers can be changed arbitrarily and capriciously. Thus not allowing a player to see those numbers while allowing the player to see every other number on the character sheet was a poor decision.

 

The affection game still exists with the only change being now you can't see the stat. This is a terrible change as it adds nothing. If they wanted to do away with an affection bar they simply should have done away with the stat entirely.

 

Man, now I'm gonna have to go with my gut feeling. My gut's as reliable as a Russian economy car. I guess it'll take me a second playthrough to really get a handle on working the companions.

[Cantina]

That all depends if she weighs each category equally. Then the math would probably be wrong. However if she values one area more than another, then that area could raise the or lower the average.

 

True. I did not play the migraine math game to figuring out the grade,because I gave several areas an A+, I valued those over all, thus coming to the end result.

 

 

Moving On....

 

 

I've read all the comments in this post, especially towards attributes and the rivalry/friendship bar. Putting the attributes aside lets talk about the bar.

 

If guy named Fred decided to hunker down in his basement and play the game based on the friend/rivalry points...who cares! Its not your game, it is his, he paid for it, he is the one playing it, Why should anyone past judgment on how someone else chooses to play. Yes, yes its your opinion, but there ARE some opinions that should be kept to yourself.

 

You honestly think that just because a bar is gone people who choose to play that way won't find a way to do it in DAI?

 

So the developer said they removed the bar because it was, "too gamey." Well no sh!t Sherlock, we ARE playing a game not eating venison.

 

If your going to keep a system in the game, go all the way or not at all. There is little sense to having the system but hiding the bar. There are some people who do not like the bar and that is fine. Again, my solution is: Put an option in the game to allow people to show or not to show the bar, by default it stays hidden.

 

People who choose to play by the bar should not be punished for the way they choose to play. Just because you, a developer or the Queen of England does not like having the bar, does not mean everyone feels the same way.

 

Do I play by the bar? No, I make my own choices and don't care if someone does or does not agree with me. However I still would like to see how far I am on a relationship without having to break out a piece of paper and a pen.

[Muspade]

Do I play by the bar? No, I make my own choices and don't care if someone does or does not agree with me. However I still would like to see how far I am on a relationship without having to break out a piece of paper and a pen.

 

Or you could just notice their tone of voice.

or wait for the Wiki to display which choices the companions disapprove of, if you're that obsessed with bars.