116 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

Perception is reality. You can claim it doesn't make sense, the mages can say they were leaving for another reason....but if the circle breaking up at he height of such tension leads the masses to see them as supporting Mass Murder  then it's their truth no matter how hard you try to fight it, and that is why Vivienne makes a fair point.

Vivienne's point is about as fair as the elections in Eastern Ukraine. And if the masses are too stupid to see it, that's their problem. I will do everything I can to secure the liberty of the mages, and don't anticipate that it'll destroy the world.

 

 

Sailors on a US military ship come into a foreign port, and go out on shore leave. 5995 sailors have fun and return to the ship  without incident. Five get into a fight the results in a death. What do you think the headlines will be in that port city the next morning? How do you think people of that nation will look on that ship, the navy, and the country it represents?

Not with massive crackdowns on the general population of the nation whose ship it was.

[HellaciousHutch]

Vivienne is the perfect woman. A shame she isn't romanceable... *Sigh* I guess i'll flirt with her though, when the option presents itself.

[Nohvarr]

Vivienne's point is about as fair as the elections in Eastern Ukraine. And if the masses are too stupid to see it, that's their problem. I will do everything I can to secure the liberty of the mages, and don't anticipate that it'll destroy the world.

 

So instead of dealing with the reality of situation at hand, and acknowledging the very real issue of setting yourself up for failure (100 to 1 odds sound poor to me) you'd rather forge ahead and assume things will work out for the best? This is exactly the kind of thinking Vivienne opposes. You are so wrapped up in 'The Plight of the Mages' that you can not see the other issues at hand. Honestly it's like Loghain all over again, who so feared the return of Orlais he saw any contact with them, as proof they were preparing to invade.

 

Not with massive crackdowns on the general population of the nation whose ship it was.

The Navy can't suppress a port....and the attempt to do so would only exacerbate the problem. Now you'd have the entire world up in arms instead of a single nation.

[Xilizhra]

So instead of dealing with the reality of situation at hand, and acknowledging the very real issue of setting yourself up for failure (100 to 1 odds sound poor to me) you'd rather forge ahead and assume things will work out for the best? This is exactly the kind of thinking Vivienne opposes. You are so wrapped up in 'The Plight of the Mages' that you can not see the other issues at hand. Honestly it's like Loghain all over again, who so feared the return of Orlais he saw any contact with them, as proof they were preparing to invade.

Actually, I'm just putting my metagame goggles on for a moment and taking comfort in the knowledge that I won't be totally screwed over for being pro-mage, as Bioware won't do that. Hell, in-game, I'm not even part of the mage rebellion; I just am going to add them to the Inquisition and help them out whenever possible. I think, in the end, that that'll be enough. And enough for my RPing as well; my Inquisitor knows she can't join the rebellion and doesn't necessarily want to, being Dalish, but will still ally with them because she supports them and has the option to do so.

 

I do wonder if I might tank Vivienne's approval by doing so. I'm willing to go hunt down her books, but by no means, unless the game forces me, will I side with her mage faction over the rebellion.

 

 

The Navy can't suppress a port....and the attempt to do so would only exacerbate the problem. Now you'd have the entire world up in arms instead of a single nation.

I think you misread my post.

[Nohvarr]

I do wonder if I might tank Vivienne's approval by doing so. I'm willing to go hunt down her books, but by no means, unless the game forces me, will I side with her mage faction over the rebellion.

 

I personally trust Vivienne more than the Rebels right now...especially since the reasonable rebel leaders were killed in the blast. I personally have no issue with stomping on both Mages and Templar Rebels and then rebuilding the remnants into something workable.

[Xilizhra]

I personally trust Vivienne more than the Rebels right now...especially since the reasonable rebel leaders were killed in the blast. I personally have no issue with stomping on both Mages and Templar Rebels and then rebuilding the remnants into something workable.

I agree with the second part of your stomping list.

 

I don't think Vivienne will betray me, but I have no intention of coddling her repugnant political philosophy.

[Bleachrude]

Eh...didn't we already know that some circles were more permissive. Rivain for example had entire families living in their circles IIRC and in both Orlais and Ferelden, we knew mages (at least enchanters) could come and go as they please as long as the 1st enchanter said so (see Finn for example and in Origins, Isolde's grandfather was a mage that had somewhat regular contact with his progeny).

[Xilizhra]

Rivain for example had entire families living in their circles IIRC

And the templars murdered them for it.

[sangy]

Why-o-why is this beauty not an LI option? Whyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?! </3

 

I'm not usually one to complain, but there should be a law against making such a character and not have the opportunity to make the most of her presence.  Makes me a little sad. ; ;

[Hair Serious Business]

Vivienne is the perfect woman. A shame she isn't romanceable... *Sigh* I guess i'll flirt with her though, when the option presents itself.

 

I doubt that duke would like to share his Mistress around...men are and always were too possessive 

[HellaciousHutch]

I doubt that duke would like to share his Mistress around...men are and always were too possessive 

 

I'll just kill the Duke then. 

[Vilegrim]

She's the only mage who supports the circle it seems therefore she's perfect imo.

She supports them..while having done everything in her power not to have to live in one, so she supports them for other people, if she really supported them she would have never seen the outside world, like 99% of mages.

[Bleachrude]

She supports them..while having done everything in her power not to have to live in one, so she supports them for other people, if she really supported them she would have never seen the outside world, like 99% of mages.

 

Again, I'll point out that this doesn't seem to be true.

 

Finn seemed to have no problem leaving the circle and we meet other mages in Awakening (both Wynne and her "friend") who were outside of the circle.  Isolde's grandfather for example was able to not only have a family but stay in contact with them....and in the world of thedas we learn that at least in orlais, it was quite possible for mages to have their own cottages/places.

[Roninbarista]

Nice to see Vivienne in her element. She strikes an impressive figure. 

 

The mask reminded me of Catwoman in a good way. 

[Nefla]

I loooooove her, she is just the best!

[Vilegrim]

I personally trust Vivienne more than the Rebels right now...especially since the reasonable rebel leaders were killed in the blast. I personally have no issue with stomping on both Mages and Templar Rebels and then rebuilding the remnants into something workable.

 

 

erm why did you add rebels?  Wipe out every living templar and templar trainee and we might have the start of a just peace.

[Vilegrim]

Again, I'll point out that this doesn't seem to be true.

 

Finn seemed to have no problem leaving the circle and we meet other mages in Awakening (both Wynne and her "friend") who were outside of the circle.  Isolde's grandfather for example was able to not only have a family but stay in contact with them....and in the world of thedas we learn that at least in orlais, it was quite possible for mages to have their own cottages/places.

 

 

We have never been shown that however, in the games mages outside the tower are hunted and killed, unless they are operating under templar supervision to earn the Circle and the Templars money, or have the 'companion immunity' all others are fugitives. I have to go by the games, and they show brutal execution  after extreme torture for leaving, if taken alive.

[berrieh]

Regardless, attacking the Circle for his actions is wholly unjust, and then claiming that the Circle supports mass murder because of it is just bizarre. I have no intention of siding with Vivienne's "loyalists" if it comes down to it; sadly, she doesn't give us the opportunity to see this gigantic logical fallacy before recruiting her, so I can't use it as RP justification for not recruiting her.

 

I didn't see her as claiming the Circle supported mass murder; just that they appeared to when they took up his cause. As a powerful woman in Orlais and, frankly, as a human being with any common sense, Vivienne understands that appearances matter in terms of how people react to you. And that people's reactions matter in terms of goodwill. I'm not saying perception is reality, but I am saying perception matters in reality. That's just how the world works because you can't generally read people's minds and intentions or even see that they are fixed. 

 

We have never been shown that however, in the games mages outside the tower are hunted and killed, unless they are operating under templar supervision to earn the Circle and the Templars money, or have the 'companion immunity' all others are fugitives. I have to go by the games, and they show brutal execution  after extreme torture for leaving, if taken alive.

 

Bleachrude gave examples from the games. DA2 obviously has no examples (though theoretically if you are Mage Hawke, Meredith totally allows you to live outside the Circle and knows about you; it's implied they even know about Anders and allow him lenience because of Hawke and his Gray Warden status) because it was all about an extreme Circle. The game tells us the particular Circle is extreme in several places. The most notable is the mage who helps the children but becomes an abomination (no idea her name) and tells them not to follow; she went to the Circle for help, thinking they would help her feed the kids (non-mage, it seemed) and get on her feet, but not lock her up, based on her experiences with a Circle elsewhere. She was truly surprised when Kirkwall Templars were like, "Get in the Circle, apostate" because that's not how they roll where she's from. 

 

Even DA2 doesn't show that most mages who run away and are returned to the Circle are executed or made tranquil. Only those who turn to blood magic are. There are several mages you can return who do not get made tranquil (you see them snipe at you in the courtyard later) or killed. And that's in Kirkwall! Awakening also shows us that Ferelden's Circle has much tolerance for Anders who basically has perpetually escaped and claims he will just try again if they take him back, yet he is never made tranquil. 

 

Edit - The exception to this is Karl. But I don't really know the whole deal with Karl. He does seem to be made tranquil for a very minor crime, but then there are others who I return who aren't made tranquil, tortured, or killed. 

[Vilegrim]

 

 

 

Bleachrude gave examples from the games. DA2 obviously has no examples (though theoretically if you are Mage Hawke, Meredith totally allows you to live outside the Circle and knows about you; it's implied they even know about Anders and allow him lenience because of Hawke and his Gray Warden status) because it was all about an extreme Circle. The game tells us the particular Circle is extreme in several places. The most notable is the mage who helps the children but becomes an abomination (no idea her name) and tells them not to follow; she went to the Circle for help, thinking they would help her feed the kids (non-mage, it seemed) and get on her feet, but not lock her up, based on her experiences with a Circle elsewhere. She was truly surprised when Kirkwall Templars were like, "Get in the Circle, apostate" because that's not how they roll where she's from. 

 

Even DA2 doesn't show that most mages who run away and are returned to the Circle are executed or made tranquil. Only those who turn to blood magic are. There are several mages you can return who do not get made tranquil (you see them snipe at you in the courtyard later) or killed. And that's in Kirkwall! Awakening also shows us that Ferelden's Circle has much tolerance for Anders who basically has perpetually escaped and claims he will just try again if they take him back, yet he is never made tranquil. 

 

 

You see, I was under the impression that until Meredith totally lost it to the Red Lyrium, Kirkwall was typical, and she was executing people for leaving even then (you can talk her down in a quest..but unless you do it's clean sweep executions) and that Fereldan had a very lenient circle because of the Warden.

[berrieh]

You see, I was under the impression that until Meredith totally lost it to the Red Lyrium, Kirkwall was typical, and she was executing people for leaving even then (you can talk her down in a quest..but unless you do it's clean sweep executions) and that Fereldan had a very lenient circle because of the Warden.

 

But many of the mages who say they came from more lenient Circles didn't come from Ferelden. 

[EdwinLi]

I personally trust Vivienne more than the Rebels right now...especially since the reasonable rebel leaders were killed in the blast. I personally have no issue with stomping on both Mages and Templar Rebels and then rebuilding the remnants into something workable.

 

Well if you side with the Mages and manage to properly save 

 

Spoiler

Fiona from the crazy mages

 

when recuiting the mages you'll get the support of the mages that can actually think straight. Also if Alistair is King or alive in anyway....

 

Spoiler

Fiona and Alistair will have a reunion event where they finally meet each other and talk

[mikeymoonshine]

You see, I was under the impression that until Meredith totally lost it to the Red Lyrium, Kirkwall was typical, and she was executing people for leaving even then (you can talk her down in a quest..but unless you do it's clean sweep executions) and that Fereldan had a very lenient circle because of the Warden.

 

 In Awakening Anders mentions that he has escaped from the circle seven times, he also says that the Templars had not executed him because they could not prove that he was dangerous. 

[Kinsz]

A statement within her interest to say. Unfortunately, allowing benignity to proceed without change would allow the same for atrocity.

 

Wynne also says pretty much the same thing , Kirkwall \'s circle was bad and has gotten even worst because of Meredith being corrupted by red lyrium but it doesnt mean every circle was like that. When it comes down to it though i'd take vivienne 's word over anybody's here regarding anything circle related as she'd know more about it  than you and i.

[HeyCal]

Aaaargh, if taking Vivienne into the inquisition implies you are supporting the circle like in the video, I'll have to pass on her for my first playthrough. My Dalish elf would never support the circle at all, I kinda hate that it shifts your faction loyalty depending on who you recruit? Unless I'm reading too much into it.

[falconlord5]

Aaaargh, if taking Vivienne into the inquisition implies you are supporting the circle like in the video, I'll have to pass on her for my first playthrough. My Dalish elf would never support the circle at all, I kinda hate that it shifts your faction loyalty depending on who you recruit? Unless I'm reading too much into it.

 

You're reading too much into it. Just because Vivienne wants you to support the Circle, doesn't mean you have too. You can change your mind, flat out lie to Vivienne, whatever.

 

Just be aware that if you are planning to fight the Circle, you will have to maneuver carefully around Vivienne.