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[Vilegrim]

 In Awakening Anders mentions that he has escaped from the circle seven times, he also says that the Templars had not executed him because they could not prove that he was dangerous. 

 

 

Fereldan circle tho correct?

[EdwinLi]

Aaaargh, if taking Vivienne into the inquisition implies you are supporting the circle like in the video, I'll have to pass on her for my first playthrough. My Dalish elf would never support the circle at all, I kinda hate that it shifts your faction loyalty depending on who you recruit? Unless I'm reading too much into it.

 

As stated by Vivienne herslef, if you recuit her she says that it does not mean you support the circle. She wants to join because the Breach is a great threat and wants to help stop it. 

 

You can still recuit her and side with the Mages.

[Maria13]

Ah, wow! She is magnifique... Her voice resembles that of Lady Penelope from Thunderbirds...

 

[Probably showing my age here!]

[mikeymoonshine]

Fereldan circle tho correct?

 

yes but that obviously isn't because of the warden like you assumed. 

[HeyCal]

As stated by Vivienne herslef, if you recuit her she says that it does not mean you support the circle. She wants to join because the Breach is a great threat and wants to help stop it. 
 
You can still recuit her and side with the Mages.

Good to know and keep in mind. The tiny text that pops up to clarify your choices for her recruitment had me worried. But yes... This will be interesting if I recruit her and go against the circle.....

[Maiafay]

Bleachrude gave examples from the games. DA2 obviously has no examples (though theoretically if you are Mage Hawke, Meredith totally allows you to live outside the Circle and knows about you; it's implied they even know about Anders and allow him lenience because of Hawke and his Gray Warden status) because it was all about an extreme Circle. The game tells us the particular Circle is extreme in several places. The most notable is the mage who helps the children but becomes an abomination (no idea her name) and tells them not to follow; she went to the Circle for help, thinking they would help her feed the kids (non-mage, it seemed) and get on her feet, but not lock her up, based on her experiences with a Circle elsewhere. She was truly surprised when Kirkwall Templars were like, "Get in the Circle, apostate" because that's not how they roll where she's from. 

 

Even DA2 doesn't show that most mages who run away and are returned to the Circle are executed or made tranquil. Only those who turn to blood magic are. There are several mages you can return who do not get made tranquil (you see them snipe at you in the courtyard later) or killed. And that's in Kirkwall! Awakening also shows us that Ferelden's Circle has much tolerance for Anders who basically has perpetually escaped and claims he will just try again if they take him back, yet he is never made tranquil. 

 

Edit - The exception to this is Karl. But I don't really know the whole deal with Karl. He does seem to be made tranquil for a very minor crime, but then there are others who I return who aren't made tranquil, tortured, or killed. 

 

Mage Hawke was allowed to live outside the Circle because he/she was the Champion of Kirkwall, and Anders was his/her associate. In the first two chapters, Mage Hawke had to hide his/her magic. It wasn't until Hawke killed the Arishoke that he/she was given special treatment.

 

And all because no one saw mages become Tranquil or killed doesn't mean it didn't happen. And if all Circles were welcoming wagons full of fun and treats and fluffy bunnies, I don't think there would be that many Apostates trying to escape them. It isn't the Circle, really, imo, it's the Templars. They are the problem. Too many abuses of power on their end. And for too many years. It's made the mages resentful and stressed, and it's no wonder they finally said "enough."

 

The entire system is broken and to be honest, I think mages should govern themselves. There's power-hungry crazies in every society, mage or not, and this slippery slope philosophy of "mages will try to rule" is born out of fear of their power, and the five Magisters that had abused it. Mages are punished for the sins of a few, and the sins of those five idiots, and that's extremely unfair.  If the shoe were on the other foot, I doubt the Templars and others would be so keen on being blamed for the past deeds of their ancestors. And if they were forced from their homes and their families - even the most benign Circle would still be a prison. There's no easy choice there. No easy solution for anyone. But there'll have to be compromises somewhere, otherwise no one will win.  

 

Oh, and before anyone pro-Templar brings demons up. Demons can possess anyone. They showed that in DA2. So that argument is moot. I think the mages bond with the fade just makes them a bigger target, and that's not enough, imo, to cage them.

 

P.S. Should be interesting banter between Dorian and Vivienne. Very interesting.

[berrieh]

And all because no one saw mages become Tranquil or killed doesn't mean it didn't happen. And if all Circles were welcoming wagons full of fun and treats and fluffy bunnies, I don't think there would be that many Apostates trying to escape them. It isn't the Circle, really, imo, it's the Templars. They are the problem. Too many abuses of power on their end. And for too many years. It's made the mages resentful and stressed, and it's no wonder they finally said "enough."

 

I'm not going to get into anything major since this is about Vivienne, not about Mages v. Templars. I will just say that I'm only going to base my assumptions on what I've seen and heard, and if I've seen that mages who turned apostate were reinstated in the Circle (not killed or made Tranquil), I find that to be valid evidence, which is why I presented it. I disagree with you on a variety of other things, but don't want to derail the thread. 

 

I will say that I find Vivienne's perspective extremely interesting. I'm glad she's create a refuge, and I hope they take in mages who are pro-Circle or just scared and need a place to go and willing to return to the Circle. One thing I noticed in the books after Asunder is that many mages were clearly displaced. Many are being chased by Templars for an independence they didn't ask for and may not even support. It's those mages I feel for most, and I'm glad they have some safe spaces in the world. I know some went to the Wardens (The Last Flight) but Weisshapt (sp?) is far away and not the safest place in the world. I just hope those mages have a way to get to circles like Vivienne and that Apprentices are given a way to learn still. 

 

I also am interested in how Dorian and Vivienne get along. And how Solas - who is touted as an apostate - views Vivienne. 

[Maiafay]

It's fine to disagree. It's a game

[HairyMadDog1010]

Man Viv might be the first Bioware companion i actually hate (she is a great character tho)

 

I think i'll recruit Viv but i wont change my position on the circle to appease her, If she eventually leaves so be it. Better yet, perhapse if you side with Fiona you'll have the option to kill Viv and reunite the mages 

[Xilizhra]

You're reading too much into it. Just because Vivienne wants you to support the Circle, doesn't mean you have too. You can change your mind, flat out lie to Vivienne, whatever.

 

Just be aware that if you are planning to fight the Circle, you will have to maneuver carefully around Vivienne.

I'll only fight the loyalists if they attack the rebels.

[EdwinLi]

Man Viv might be the first Bioware companion i actually hate (she is a great character tho)

 

I think i'll recruit Viv but i wont change my position on the circle to appease her, If she eventually leaves so be it. Better yet, perhapse if you side with Fiona you'll have the option to kill Viv and reunite the mages 

 

Keep in mind that despite being Pro-Circle she does make some valid points that not all Circles were bad and Mages do need a place to learn mage with certain level of security considering they have powers only very few people can be born with. Vivienne also supports Justinia's idea to reforming the Circle into something better than its current state.

[Bigdoser]

Keep in mind that despite being Pro-Circle she does make some valid points that not all Circles were bad and Mages do need a place to learn mage with certain level of security considering they have powers only very few people can be born with. Vivienne also supports Justinia's idea to reforming the Circle into something better than its current state.

From the looks of things Viv looks to be trying to use the Inquisition to Reform the Circles plus going by that divine spoiler if it is what I think it is oooh boy. 

[Bleachrude]

It should also be noted that what Vivenne mentions about how most mages don't understand the real world ALSO is mentioned indirectly by Iron Bull. 

 

He points out that a simple baker in Val Royeaux is under as mnay restrictions as a baker from Seheron even though technically, the baker form Val Royeauz is not subject o the Qun. A mage in a circle is given relatively comfortable surroundings, is well fed, has a clean and well maintained place and is taught both reading and writing (something the vast majority of ordinary citizen don't have)

 

And I'm not talking about compared to the truly desperate aka the dusters and/or the alienages. Compare the living conditions of say Gamlen's hovel to what we see of the Galows. Or even compare the obviously tough life that Goldanna has compared to even what we see in Kirkwall (and this is acnowledged as the worst circle in all of thedas).

 

This may sound unbelievable but I think the mages in all circles (yes, even the kirkwall circle) has a standard of living SIGNIICANTLY higher than the average Thedasian. Even the Gallows looked better maintained (and Bethany seemed to have a better life in it) than what we see of kirkwall's Lowtown (to say nothing of  Darktown)

[Xilizhra]

It should also be noted that what Vivenne mentions about how most mages don't understand the real world ALSO is mentioned indirectly by Iron Bull. 

 

He points out that a simple baker in Val Royeaux is under as mnay restrictions as a baker from Seheron even though technically, the baker form Val Royeauz is not subject o the Qun. A mage in a circle is given relatively comfortable surroundings, is well fed, has a clean and well maintained place and is taught both reading and writing (something the vast majority of ordinary citizen don't have)

 

And I'm not talking about compared to the truly desperate aka the dusters and/or the alienages. Compare the living conditions of say Gamlen's hovel to what we see of the Galows. Or even compare the obviously tough life that Goldanna has compared to even what we see in Kirkwall (and this is acnowledged as the worst circle in all of thedas).

 

This may sound unbelievable but I think the mages in all circles (yes, even the kirkwall circle) has a standard of living SIGNIICANTLY higher than the average Thedasian. Even the Gallows looked better maintained (and Bethany seemed to have a better life in it) than what we see of kirkwall's Lowtown (to say nothing of  Darktown)

As far as I know, Gamlen's prospects of being raped or killed by someone who lived in his house, or of being thrown into a demon's mouth with no foreknowledge of the event, or having his emotions forcibly ripped out, were fairly slim.

[Bigdoser]

As far as I know, Gamlen's prospects of being raped or killed by someone who lived in his house, or of being thrown into a demon's mouth with no foreknowledge of the event, or having his emotions forcibly ripped out, were fairly slim.

I have to agree here even Viv admit's that Kirkwall was a crap hole of a circle I do wonder if Viv trying to do reforms in another kind of way it seems that I may have to experiment with the starting dialogue to get a better idea. 

[Bleachrude]

As far as I know, Gamlen's prospects of being raped or killed by someone who lived in his house, or of being thrown into a demon's mouth with no foreknowledge of the event, or having his emotions forcibly ripped out, were fairly slim.

 

That actually has more to do with the fact that Gamlen is _MALE_. Again, did people NOT play Origins?. Remember the City Elf origin or what about that lady that came from Orlais? How about Loghain's mother?

 

Indeed, it should be noted that Alrik had to HIDE his depravities by forcing tranquility on his victims...the implication and confirmed by others is that rape by templar _IS_ punishable.

 

Vaughn, those orlesian chevaliers did those things with NO expectation of punishment. Again, this is what I mean by most people not noticing that REGULAR citizenry of thedas (not the nobles or the high class merchants) have a potentially worse life (and if you are elven, you most assuredly do). 

[Xilizhra]

That actually has more to do with the fact that Gamlen is _MALE_.

Hello, Alain. The "living in his house" part was also significant.

 

 

Again, did people NOT play Origins?. Remember the City Elf origin or what about that lady that came from Orlais? How about Loghain's mother?

Yes, and both societies suck enough for revolution to be justified in my eyes, but since it's not happening, we can only focus on the one that is happening.

 

 

Vaughn, those orlesian chevaliers did those things with NO expectation of punishment. Again, this is what I mean by most people not noticing that REGULAR citizenry of thedas (not the nobles or the high class merchants) have a potentially worse life (and if you are elven, you most assuredly do). 

Firstly, that only includes Orlesian human commoners, not Fereldan or those of anywhere else except Tevinter. The whole chevalier thing only exists in Orlais. As for city elves, that's true in many cases... but then we look at Huon, who was fine when he was living in the Alienage and came out of the Circle as a raving lunatic. I'd say that Alienage circumstances will vary as Circle ones do.

[Bleachrude]

I have to agree here even Viv admit's that Kirkwall was a crap hole of a circle I do wonder if Viv trying to do reforms in another kind of way it seems that I may have to experiment with the starting dialogue to get a better idea. 

 

Wasn't it even shown that there were MULTIPLE murders a day in Lowtown and there was no chance of justice unless you took it into your own hands?  Do you honestly think that if say Bethany was living by herself in Lowtown (no familial protection) that she wouldn't be forced into prostitution? Why are people ignoring how crappy everday life is for the vast majority of people in Thedas?

[LobselVith8]

That actually has more to do with the fact that Gamlen is _MALE_.

 

You can be male, and be a victim of rape. Alain is male, and he was raped by templars.

[Morroian]

Keep in mind that despite being Pro-Circle she does make some valid points that not all Circles were bad and Mages do need a place to learn mage with certain level of security considering they have powers only very few people can be born with.

 

No reason this can;t be by mages.

[Morroian]

This may sound unbelievable but I think the mages in all circles (yes, even the kirkwall circle) has a standard of living SIGNIICANTLY higher than the average Thedasian. 

 

A comfortable prison is still a prison and there is also the issue of the harrowing.

[Xilizhra]

Wasn't it even shown that there were MULTIPLE murders a day in Lowtown and there was no chance of justice unless you took it into your own hands?  Do you honestly think that if say Bethany was living by herself in Lowtown (no familial protection) that she wouldn't be forced into prostitution? Why are people ignoring how crappy everday life is for the vast majority of people in Thedas?

In the former case, not unless you include Hawke's body count, and that was in self-defense. As for Bethany, no, because of Lirene's outfit.

 

In any case, regardless of how crappy life is for other people in Thedas, that doesn't mean that mages are morally obligated to put up with the crap that they get.

[LobselVith8]

No reason this can;t be by mages.

 

True. Mages can be properly trained in the use of their powers without having to live in servitude to the Chantry or the Templar Order.

 

A comfortable prison is still a prison and there is also the issue of the harrowing.

 

As well as the Rite of Tranquility and the Right of Annulment.

[Bleachrude]

 

Firstly, that only includes Orlesian human commoners, not Fereldan or those of anywhere else except Tevinter. The whole chevalier thing only exists in Orlais. As for city elves, that's true in many cases... but then we look at Huon, who was fine when he was living in the Alienage and came out of the Circle as a raving lunatic. I'd say that Alienage circumstances will vary as Circle ones do.

 

So you think that if Vaughn tried forcing himself on say a nobody like Goldana that he would be puished/stripped of his titles? REALLY?

 

Let's take awakening for example. In the "A Day in court", you actually have way more power over the life of regular citizen than even what we see in the Circle. Anders for example escaped multiple times and other than being captured and dragged back, Anders not once mentions anything about physical abuse (and you know Anders would have stalked about that). Yet as the arl, you are fully within your rights to execture a famer for stealing for his family and/ore execute a soldeir for desertion.

 

The rite of tranqulity actually has to be agreed by both Knight commander and first enchanter so at the least you have some redress as a lowly apprentice in the circle. As a lowly citizen of Thedas? Your best bet is to hope to have a nice noble.