51 réponses à ce sujet

[SwobyJ]

I'm very prepared for future installments where Qunari utilize technology and lyrium research to epic and surprising ends.

[Leliana]

One may find it difficult to adapt to the Qun if you weren't born into it, but clearly some non-Qunari are willing to accept it. As others have mentioned it is reminiscent to communism (or perhaps more accurately, socialism) so is its allure to the youth in my opinion. I'm 18 and I find the Qun appealing similarly to how I find socialism appealing to be honest. I like how some if not most Qunari fervently believe that their ideology is the best way, for example the Arishok's view of the festering cesspool that is non-Qunari society that would really be solved by the Qun. In his view that is a solution but it won't actually work if the Qun was applied on say, Kirkwall. 

[LightningPoodle]

I'd follow it. The Qun gives purpose. You work together to achieve a goal for the better of everyone. All that is demanded of you is acceptance. 

[congokong]

That's usually the case, but the fact remains that "technology can theoretically surpass magic" is an oversimplification given that mages can apparently do fairly involved procedures without needing to open the patient and probably with shorter recovery times, and that one blood mage who's willing drain themselves dry can apparently wipe out an entire Qunari fleet. I'm not saying your argument is without merit, given the whole "attracts demons" thing and the fact that not everyone is a mage, but it's not the whole picture either. The major point isn't that the point where Qunari can use technology's full power is a long way off (though that's relevant to your point), it's that even when they reach that point there will still be things mages are better at.

This is such a stupid conversation; nitpicking over semantics and "oversimplifications." Just because this is a message board doesn't mean everyone has to argue with each other.

[Riverdaleswhiteflash]

This is such a stupid conversation; nitpicking over semantics and "oversimplifications." Just because this is a message board doesn't mean everyone has to argue with each other.

Under the heading of "nitpicking," I'm not sure the quotation marks around "oversimplifications" were called for.

[Bardox9]

Me personally? I doubt it, but I do understand the appeal some would have to it. 

 

From the POV of a city elf, castelss Dwarf, or anyeone of any race that is constantly told they are trash and should feel privileged to be spit on by the high and mighty social classes, the Qun is highly appealing. It is a system that treats everyone equally. For one who is rich and powerful, that idea is horrifying. For one who is poor and pi$$ed on, that idea is "Justice!"

 

The Qun has it's merits, but we have little to no understanding of the inner workings of their society. We only have interactions with their military. Not the best group to demonstrate how wonderful life in the Qun can be.

 

.... of course if I were a Mage, I would run away screaming...

[Punahedan]

If I were in Thedas? Yes. In the real world? It gets more complicated. 

 

But in Thedas, the guarantee of a home, of a community, and of respect for what you do is incredibly appealing. They are a people who demand mastery of their skills, and I find that appealing because no one will let you move forward in something when you're unprepared. Having a place in life? A sure path, where you will always receive support and guidance from others like you? A community, a group that will understand you? Appealing. In real life, too, particularly when speaking to, say, students with ridiculous amounts of student debt and fear of the future. People with depression and anxiety? The support systems are built into the society.

 

Though, again, it's more complicated because our world's history would link the structure to communism... which the Qun has nothing to do with. It's not equal distribution of wealth; it's united effort to build a system, which is different because the concept of wealth isn't in terms of property or the material but is based instead on the well-being of the whole -- are people eating? Do they have a safe place to sleep? Are they physically healthy? Are they capable of fulfilling their responsibilities and if not, can that be fixed? It's closer to Pluto and Aristotle (which have their own problems, ngl, but hold a certain philosophical appeal as well) combined with Buddhism and other non-western ideals. 

 

The Chantry is something we know. It's very western. The Qun is not, so switching out of the mindset of the individual's benefit (salvation if you believe hard enough) to the community's benefit (in the present time) is hard for many, and may not seem appealing at first because we believe so strongly (and often, unfortunately, against what reality shows us) that we can build our way to the top and be independent. It's rare to be truly independent, and even when it happens, it's at the cost of other people's lives and well-being.

 

But that being said, it's implied that the Qunari are extremists in the eyes of the people of their homelands, so I would approach it with questions. What doesn't help is that all we've seen so far is the military arm, and not how it connects to the rest. 

 

Overall, I would do it. A lot of the social stresses I face every day would go away. A lot of my fears would stop. Certainty is nothing to sneeze at; you never know how valuable it is until you can't see any potential future for yourself. 

[Sir DeLoria]

**** no, never.

The Qun is the sum of everything I despise. A totalitarian, sexist, universalist society where individual lives mean absolutely nothing and any sense of personal freedom is virtually non-existent. No wonder they can only keep their population under control through brain washing and propaganda.

What's the point of a society like that?

[Punahedan]

 I try to tell people I care about to live in the moment more often (but not in a careless or hedonistic sense). 

 

Not always an option in our society -- but something I think the Qun strives to give people, actually. I have to always be mindful of whether what I do in my free time will help or hinder me in my work later on. If I don't work on a particular project in my spare time, will I have something to show potential employers? Will I have money to spare at the end of the month? Should I save it for something important or in case of emergency, or can I safely spend it? What about my parents? They're getting old. Will they have enough to go on when they can't work anymore? Chances are they won't. How can I build now so that I can help later? 

 

A side effect of our society is that we have to think about these things in advance, and entirely on our own. The benefit of the Qun would be that I don't need to worry about my parents, not because I wouldn't know them, but because I know all elderly and sick will be cared for. Basic education is provided to all -- something the Chantry doesn't do, but that, interestingly, the Circle does. I won't need to worry about finding a new employer or being let go. I will always have something I can do. And I not only guarantee I will be safe, I guarantee that all the others who rely on my work will be safe. 

 

Living in the moment, not worrying about the future... this is a luxury most people do not have, and I can guarantee those elves in the alienages and those farmers in the bum-middle of nowhere can't do that without serious consequences. The Qun is what gives the Qunari exactly that kind of calm that you want your family and friends to have. 

 

Maybe certainty isn't the right word -- confidence might be better. Confidence, security, trust in the people around you. A leaf without the tree will die, just like a tree with no leaves. 

 

But it requires the cooperation of everyone involved. That's harder. And I admit, if I didn't know for sure that everyone around me agreed, I wouldn't be following it, either, because the premise is not fulfilled. 

[Kradus9]

Not under any circunstance, since they make people to do stuff they don't like or kill them.

[SmilesJA]

A resounding YES! Submit to the Qun!

[Punahedan]

 

I appreciate the well thought out post, but I don't see it as a luxury. It's a philosophy, if you will. Something one comes to like any other philosophy, much like the Qun. Just on the opposite spectrum. One that doesn't rely on intuition and planning, but embraces the sensory world and improvisation (and I think improvisation is tied to individuality somewhat btw. It's about creativity and learning and building your own options. Instead of relying on systematic approaches or social engineering). I said earlier that Jesus mentioned it in the gospels - as did Buddha and Lao Tzu. They weren't living luxuriously. Nor were their adherents. They lived among peasants and people much like city elves. Maybe Lao Tzu is the exception. He had the ear of everyone in his day apparently.

 

Except a philosophy's generally of no use if it can't be put into practice. Which I'm saying people in Thedas can't because the standards of Chantry society place too many constraints on people just trying to get their work done. If they could be sure that when they got home, they would have food on their table (and that they would have a home to go back to!), would they be more willing to do the work that needs to be done in order to live peacefully? Instead they risk angering someone just because of how they were born, or they can get mugged or robbed or hurt and no one will help them. That's why thinking like that is a luxury not permitted by Chantric values -- there are too many uncontrollable values. Under the Qun, your philosophy becomes viable. There's no noble to anger off, no highwayman to rob you, and if something does happen, the wrongdoer will be punished and not given preference just because they're rich or powerful. 

 

And, technically, Buddha was originally of a high caste and lived a life of material wealth, but like the philosopher the Qun describes the awakening of, saw the suffering of the people, then sat isolated to observe the natural world and achieved enlightenment. The story of Buddha's enlightenment is about separating the self from the material and to think differently about what we should value in ourselves and in others. Many Buddhist philosophies say duty and responsibility shouldn't be burdens -- they should be ways of life, and should fulfill you. Plato, loosely speaking, says the same, except that he adds that you will be fulfilled if the work that you do is something you are very good at. As in, doing something well makes us feel good. And that's true, no? We feel proud and confident when we can do something well. We feel shame and embarrassment when we make a mistake that we could have avoided. Sten appreciates art because it shows control of the brush and mastered skill. He is a good warrior because he has control and mastery over his sword. 

 

The societies Buddha, Plato, and Lao Tzu came from are societies that put a lot of emphasis on the general the communal spirit/filial piety and respecting the natural way of things, and even using that as a way to structure one's life. The passages we've seen from the Qun constantly refer to natural events and using them as a basis for life ("The tide rises, the tide falls, but the sea is changeless," for instance"). 

 

The odd one out is Jesus... who was Jewish, and Jewish traditions require all youth to be able to read and write as a rite of adulthood (and in order to read the Qun and to understand the Qun, since the Qun is not believed but understood, Qunari would have to know to read as a part of their general education), promote unity within a community... and are also othered by western society. And Jesus is more of an analogue for Andraste than for the philosopher the Qun references. Whereas I would say the others presented philosophies I see as closer to the Qun.  

 

I think the difference between our arguments is that you value an individual's achievements and think it's more beneficial to be flexible. I'm not so invested in individualism, and I would rather be prepared. Matter of what we've each experienced in life, I think. 

 

(And I don't think creativity comes solely from an individual. After all, scientists don't work in isolation, they work together, and that kind of ingenuity requires a fair bit of creative thought.) 

[Punahedan]

I wouldn't equate Plato with Buddha.

 

Plato was a bastard.

 

He, Aristotle, and Pythagoras before them. They viewed society as a heirarchy and were responsible for influencing much of the crappy class distinctions that plagued Greece, Rome, and later Europe. And they made excuses for slavery and counseled tyrants. Not to mention, they embraced mysticism and ideals over empiricism and sensory life. They championed "secret knowledge" (and this secretiveness had much to do with their views on hierarchy as well). This also plagued scientific advancement for centuries (people like to blame just Christianity, but it was Platonism that did it first). 

 

Sorry.. now I'm about to rant. Nevermind.

 

I know the Buddha grew up privileged, but that's not the same man I'm talking about. He changed, after all. 

 

Well, yes, Plato was a sack of... somethin'. 

 

But that doesn't mean he doesn't make a few valuable points. And that doesn't mean the Qun doesn't borrow from that (I say, as I force myself to focus on the topic at hand).  

 

I think there's something important in so many of these philosophers -- including the one in the Qun -- having to leave society in order to achieve this enlightenment. It's partly the problem with any philosophy and religion: they arise in a time of conflict and change, and where someone might have good insight in the moment, the farther those philosophies get away from the origin, the more diluted they get... and the more trapped by politics, social behaviors, and ritualization they get. Most of these men (exclusively men!) can get up and walk away from society and not worry about their well-being because they came from a good position -- they were formally educated, which would be different from a farmer or a miller walking away from society to philosophize. Even in the case of Buddha, who did ultimately give up worldly concerns and live poorly, more weight is given to these men because they are from a high position to start with. Same thing with the Ashkaari. 

 

Ashkaari leaving society to achieve enlightenment may also relate to the Qunari leaving the kossith behind for their enlightenment. So a dramatization of events, in a way. Whatever the case is, it is something that formed in conflict, and is something that has probably changed since its beginnings. 

 

Side effect of a text needing to be understood is that you can read the Qun and it can resonate with you any which way, but in the end, you may be understanding it differently than how it was intended (see: Machiavelli's The Prince and how people have somehow used it as a basis for running a business or a nation -- NO. BAD.). Philosophical success is all well and good until you run into the practical problems.  And if you understand the Qun "wrongly", I suppose you become Tal-Vashoth. 

 

So maybe I'll just be an armchair Qunari. Heheh. 

[Andreas Amell]

I'd follow the Antaam in razing Kirkwall to the ground once and for all. But so far I've seen nothing that fully impresses me about the Qun. The martial side of it has been the only thing we've seen about it. I have yet to see their craftsmen and religious sides more fully.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No. I wouldn't follow it.

[Weltnoir]

No, and I think we should move on.  10/10 Tal Vashoth agree.

[SwobyJ]

I'd follow the Antaam in razing Kirkwall to the ground once and for all. But so far I've seen nothing that fully impresses me about the Qun. The martial side of it has been the only thing we've seen about it. I have yet to see their craftsmen and religious sides more fully.

 

DAO + DA2 --> Military side

DA2 + DAI --> Spying Side

DAI + ? --> Cultural Side??

 

I mean we've seen their military culture, sure. But it shouldn't be a huge surprise how they act there (Sten, Arishok). That's the first impression and it isn't supposed to be easily sympathetic.

 

So I'd like the next game to show us more about how things actually ARE, IN Qunari lands. If we get to see places like Seheron and Rivain and maybe Tevinter and Antiva, we might see this stuff. The military and spying side may still be around, but actually visiting their occupied areas may change some minds, though I really think that only Par Volan will be the true showing of how life is under (near?) total Qun rule.

 

The Qunari is the only faction that I 100% support the others going to war against, but I still want to learn about them. If only to learn their weaknesses .

[Katari]

I had my Qunari Rogue say maybe when asked this by Josephine.  I could see positives to it for a Qunari raised outside of it whose seen how crappy things can get in Thedas.  There are pros and cons for sure.  Not sure if I like the lack of freedom aspect personally.  

[Elfyoth]

There is a simply answer for this at least for me and its only ONE WORD: NO!