119 réponses à ce sujet

[Dreamer]

In the current time-frame - I have never had problems w/ Origin, Steam, UPlay, and other forms of game-client DRM. Actually, I think they're a lot more logical than the other DRM sets out there from the past, since they're just account-based and don't often do other weird things.

Boy, where to begin on DRM on StarForce - hehe....

 

To me, it seems overboard to have Denuvo tossed on top of Origin. That could hamper performance - and since it's relatively new, who knows whatelse Denuvo happens to be doing...especially since this is from those who worked on Securom.

 

Of course - BioWare + EA all going to do what they're going to do; and that's that. You either get with their program, or don't - I understand how it is. I bought Diablo 3 + RoS, despite it having always-online DRM; and I was able to solo the game all by my lonesome self. Wish I could play offline, but it has not been implemented.

 

The reason I talked about Source Code, EXE's, Mods - what I care about is the game being able to run years down the road, once support gets dropped from the game unofficially - which, in most cases, is inevitable. It would be nice if dev's and pub's, once a game's old and they don't want to maintain it anymore - to give the community support like that, once the company's tossed the towel in on supporting a said game.

 

When the game is dropped, the only thing you'll have to worry about is Origin, since it is the only actual DRM attached to Inquisition. Since your license is attached to your Origin account, without Origin, presumably the game no longer functions. This would have to be patched, and I imagine it would be if and when it comes to that.

 

Performance comes up in the discussion because it's the only thing people have left to grasp onto. Since we cannot verify if there's a performance impact on Denuvo's part, we simply have to take the developers at their word. Inquisition runs great by virtually all accounts, so whether or not Denuvo is hampering the game's performance seems moot.

[Chibi Elemental]

well considering its more for multiplayer security, the side effect is yes it makes it harder to pirate as the pirates have to make changes to the .exe file to get their copies to run however. The purpose for it here is to make it harder to cheat online, some say why is this a bad thing its only co-op no one is harmed. I would say you are wrong on this part. ever tried playing Diablo (the vary first one) with out duped or hacked items? I have its hard and you are severely gimped compared to everyone else and to even compete it takes a long time and lots of farming to get even near where their power is and that could happen in DAMP which would really turn many players away from the multiplayer experience.

 

as for it being rootkit I have not seen any evidence to suppor that either, look to dereks post for the most reliable information all the other information I have found has been speculation and fear mongering, as for the "lords of the fallen proves its bad" statement there has been proof to say otherwise on its bugs, look to the console versions which do not even have this software onboard, you will see that it was also extremely buggy not just the PC version of the game.

[Sidian]

IF THE GAME IS GOOD, PEOPLE WILL BUY IT. DRM ONLY HURTS YOU. I would have thought you had figured this out by now. It's really not a difficult to understand.

That's a common statement, but it's not true. In fact, most people who pirate a game will buy it if there is no crack - you just need to look at sales.

If a game is cracked in the first week, sales will drop by an incredible amount of 50-70%.

 

 

denuvo is the drm of sony the same company that have a very big scandal in the past with drm rootkit.

And Blizzard made a game with real money auction house and a bad loot system. That doesn't mean they will do it again - they even removed the auction house and overhauled the loot system of that game.

Same with Denuvo. Just because the developers made mistakes in the past, that doesn't mean they will do it again.

 

 

This sort of DRM is basically EA punching the paying customer in the face while asking the pirate how much it hurts. 

DA:I's DRM is Origin. I agree that Origin was like a punch in a customers face at first, but EA has done a very good job in the recent past.

However, Denuvo is not a DRM. It just protects Origin and the game's exe file.

In addition, if you haven't heard or read about Denuvo, you wouldn't even notice it unlike you are "the pirate". Paying Customers are not affected in any negative way.

Quite the opposite: A good DRM protection prevents pirating for quite a while, creating tons of money (as i said before, the drop in sales is extremly high once a crack is released for any PC game). A part of that money is invested in further development: DLCs, Addons, the next Dragon Age title. The more money they can invest, the higher the quality of those products.

 

 

I don't care pirates get to play or not. I care when they try to fend off pirates they are impacting me as a customer. Imposing 1-5% performance (this is what was revealed by CI devs on Lord of the Fallen) is already a big deal. Also, Bioware said it has no impact to performance and the Denuvo web-page said it will not impact performance. Lies?

First, you don't know if the LotF Dev is correct on this. Second, LotF uses an other DRM as Fifa15 and DA:I and Fifa15 runs fine without any problems.

As far as i know how Denuvo works, it won't affect the performance at all unless you have a very bad CPU, because Denuvo uses CPU cycles. So does firefox, skype, Teamspeak, any DRM program like Steam, Origin and so on. I own a quite old gaming notebook and there is still no game that is limited by my CPU.

 

But i will admit, if almost 100% of your CPU's capacity is used, Denuvo may affect your performance by 1-5%...

[Eledran]

I can accept the idea that Denuvo is anti-tamper and not actual DRM.

 

That said, I would agree with the OP that it's still stupid to waste your time with stuff like that. I'll be mighty surprised if it keeps pirates away for more than a couple of days. Heck, the last gen console versions of the game have already been pirated, though I'm not sure if they have that program too.

 

There's something to be said for anti-cheating in multiplayer, but it's not like this game is going to be that competitive in multiplayer. If they want to police their multiplayer so that people can't cheat unlocks without paying, there are other ways of monitoring.

Those people who are hell bent on cheating will definitely find a way to do just that.

 

Many mods of ME3 did require the use of a modified .exe on the other hand, so that will be one more difficulty the community will encounter if they try to improve their gaming experience through modding.

[Kantr]

The last gen have been pirated because the copy protection was cracked years ago. It has after all been 7 years.

[Sidian]

I'll be mighty surprised if it keeps pirates away for more than a couple of days. Heck, the last gen console versions of the game have already been pirated, though I'm not sure if they have that program too.

The consoles have an other kind of "DRM" and don't use Denuvo.

Other games using Denuvo haven't been cracked yet - after 2 months.

[Eledran]

I thought so. Still, it'll surprise me if it takes them long to crack the new versions.

[Stiler]

Okay.   Look, not sure if this has been stated before, but...   Denuvo will produce an error and will stop the executable from running (I believe).  Call this DRM if you want to, but it's technically not.  It's not because it has no say in the rights management, only in the size of the file.  It's like splitting hairs here, but it really is an important one to be split.  Origin is the DRM.  

 

Now, in terms of cracking.  Cracking has been around forever.  Some of those people will crack games that they won't even play, just to say that they got to it first.

 

So don't hand this line of BS that DRM will only hurt the company.

DRM does not simply mean it has to tie into some sort of account or anything of the sort.

 

The idea that it isn't DRM because of this makes little to no sense, the entire point of DRM, long before there were any kinds of "Origin" or Steam or other services was all about doing exactly the kind of thing this does, stop copying, tampering, etc.

 

It's all DRM regardless of the different ways it goes about stopping you from fiddling with an exe or cd or other things.

[Dreadcall]

 

First, you don't know if the LotF Dev is correct on this. Second, LotF uses an other DRM as Fifa15 and DA:I and Fifa15 runs fine without any problems.

As far as i know how Denuvo works, it won't affect the performance at all unless you have a very bad CPU, because Denuvo uses CPU cycles. So does firefox, skype, Teamspeak, any DRM program like Steam, Origin and so on. I own a quite old gaming notebook and there is still no game that is limited by my CPU.

 

But i will admit, if almost 100% of your CPU's capacity is used, Denuvo may affect your performance by 1-5%...

 

We know very little about how Denuvo works. It apparently not causing any porblems in FIFA, causing an 1-5% performance hit in LoTF according to one of it's devs, mr. Derek French's posts here, and the fact that the Denuvo website either dishonestly or mistakenly claims that a game going uncracked for 46 days is unprecedented.

 

That is very little to go on if you're trying to convince someone that it's comletely harmless or the opposite. 

[Lux]

Is it because it's weekend or is Bioware now ok with this sort of topic?

 

I can't say I mind the Origin DRM. It's much better than the previously overbearing SecuROM, and my aversion to EA has been abated from what I've seen with Inquisition (hope this continues).

 

The current DRM protection has been effective in delaying games being cracked. This is good in a way that cheapskates are more prone to actually buy a game in the critical first weeks, and people with no actual money just having to wait longer to get their fix.

 

This more benign form of copy protection is actually helping with sales.

[Sidian]

We know very little about how Denuvo works. It apparently not causing any porblems in FIFA, causing an 1-5% performance hit in LoTF according to one of it's devs, mr. Derek French's posts here, and the fact that the Denuvo website either dishonestly or mistakenly claims that a game going uncracked for 46 days is unprecedented.

 

That is very little to go on if you're trying to convince someone that it's comletely harmless or the opposite. 

I think you mixed something up.

Derek French did not post anything about LotF performance loss caused by Denuvo.

 

I don't know anything about FIFA 14, but FIFA 15 is still not cracked and has no issues. There is no evidence or proof that it is harmful in any way - i'm sure most rumors are spread by players who want to pirate FIFA 15 / LotF but can't. "Hey, LotF has bad performance, i'm certain it is caused by that DRM protection, better remove it so we can play the game too!"

 

Btw, i found a thread in the steam forums, opened by a player without the game in his library, claiming that he found the cause of the poor performance and the crashes: execryptor (which is also an anti-crack-program). As we know now execryptor wasn't even used for that game.

[Itkovian]

It's amazing this is still a topic. Stunning sometimes.

 

But seriously, concerning the OP: the reason companies use DRM is because it works, and is worth the money spent on it. If it wasn't, companies wouldn't use it.

 

Or let me rephrase: the reason publishers use DRM is not because "Piracy is bad" and they want to thwart it at the expense of the legitimate customer. The reason is because they make more money with DRM than without (I imagine by slowing down/preventing Day 1 piracy, leading more people to buy on release).

 

See, the thing is: they WOULD have figured it out if DRM only hurt them. These people have actual data and metrics to base their decisions on, not just their own opinions and that of their online buddies. Assuming they're unaware that it ticks off some people and haven't taken that into consideration is just incorrect.

 

Besides, DRM is pretty much standard these days. Considering Steam _IS_ DRM, and is basically THE major source of PC games, that ship has sailed a few years ago. DRM is here to stay.

[Dreamer]

It's amazing this is still a topic. Stunning sometimes.

 

But seriously, concerning the OP: the reason companies use DRM is because it works, and is worth the money spent on it. If it wasn't, companies wouldn't use it.

 

Or let me rephrase: the reason publishers use DRM is not because "Piracy is bad" and they want to thwart it at the expense of the legitimate customer. The reason is because they make more money with DRM than without (I imagine by slowing down/preventing Day 1 piracy, leading more people to buy on release).

 

See, the thing is: they WOULD have figured it out if DRM only hurt them. These people have actual data and metrics to base their decisions on, not just their own opinions and that of their online buddies. Assuming they're unaware that it ticks off some people and haven't taken that into consideration is just incorrect.

 

Besides, DRM is pretty much standard these days. Considering Steam _IS_ DRM, and is basically THE major source of PC games, that ship has sailed a few years ago. DRM is here to stay.

 

But just for the record and so there's no opportunity for confusion: Denuvo is NOT DRM. Any discussion of DRM is pointless.

[Stiler]

But just for the record and so there's no opportunity for confusion: Denuvo is NOT DRM. Any discussion of DRM is pointless.

 

It is DRM, it's one of the most basic definitions of DRM.

 

DRM doens't mean it has to have activations or tie something to an account, this kind of "DRM" was around long before Origin and other types of account based DRM.

[Dreamer]

It is DRM, it's one of the most basic definitions of DRM.

 

DRM doens't mean it has to have activations or tie something to an account, this kind of "DRM" was around long before Origin and other types of account based DRM.

 

But it isn't and we'll all thank you for no longer perpetuating such nonsense.

[Stiler]

But it isn't and we'll all thank you for no longer perpetuating such nonsense.

 

http://en.wikipedia....ghts_management

 

"the intent to control the use of digital content and devices after sale;^[1][2][3] there are, however, many competing definitions.^[4] With first-generation DRM software, the intent is to control copying; with second-generation DRM, the intent is to control executing, viewing, copying, printing, and altering of works or devices."

 

I'd like to know how this is not DRM then? DRM is not defined by having it tied to some "account" service or any such thing, many of the oldest forms of DRM had nothing to do with any kind of account service. They were meant to control what you could and could not do with the media, rather it be copying it, tampering with it, etc, just like this DRM is meant to do.

 

There's different kinds of DRM and ways to do it, just because it isn't about using an account service doesn't magically make it not DRM.

 

edit - really just splitting hairs here.

 

DRM or not according to you it's just going to end up being another thing that may or may not cause problems down the road with a game.

 

Just don't see why having Origin already they really had to throw this in there on top of that.

[dlux]

^

 

The Origin DRM that was already there has just been improved with an anti-tamper layer from Denuvo. Same DRM, just more robust and uncrackable at the moment.

[Dreamer]

http://en.wikipedia....ghts_management

 

"the intent to control the use of digital content and devices after sale;^[1][2][3] there are, however, many competing definitions.^[4] With first-generation DRM software, the intent is to control copying; with second-generation DRM, the intent is to control executing, viewing, copying, printing, and altering of works or devices."

 

I'd like to know how this is not DRM then? DRM is not defined by having it tied to some "account" service or any such thing, many of the oldest forms of DRM had nothing to do with any kind of account service. They were meant to control what you could and could not do with the media, rather it be copying it, tampering with it, etc, just like this DRM is meant to do.

 

There's different kinds of DRM and ways to do it, just because it isn't about using an account service doesn't magically make it not DRM.

 

edit - really just splitting hairs here.

 

DRM or not according to you it's just going to end up being another thing that may or may not cause problems down the road with a game.

 

Just don't see why having Origin already they really had to throw this in there on top of that.

 

It has nothing to do with what I say is or isn't DRM; it has to do with what the developers have said. They've said it isn't.

 

Origin is the DRM attached to Inquisition. It is the only thing which can limit your access to the game. The only thing that Denuvo does, according to Bioware, is protect the executable from being altered. Period. No more room for discussion.

[Captain_Obvious]

You know, CD Projekt said The Witcher 2 was pirated 4.5 million times. So all of the respect that CDP gave to their fans who oppose DRM was returned by 4.5 million fans stealing their game. Just want to point that out. The "respect the fans, we won't steal anything, promise," has already been proven wrong. I choose to show some respect for developers to protect their investments, and not freak out if they have DRM. I might grumble if it makes it hard to activate, or check out what it is before I install it, but that's about it. It's just not that big a deal.

[SofaJockey]

I've read Derek's comments and that's fine with me.

I'm pleased that the integrity of multiplayer is protected.

[bztLL]

denuvo is the drm of sony the same company that have a very big scandal in the past with drm rootkit.

 

https://www.schneier..._drm_rootk.html

http://blogs.technet...ne-too-far.aspx

http://foros.softoni...-historia-11405

http://hipertextual....gro-del-rootkit

"Sony, Rootkits and Digital Rights Management Gone Too Far

31 Oct 2005 11:04 AM"

They are all from 2005

 

Are you really that stupid?

 

It's no proof that Denuvo is going to harm your PC or it's a rootkit/malware. 10 years in software development is a lot of time, I really doubt Sony wants some controversy with DRM after all this time.

Also Denuvo is not DRM, it protects the real DRM (origin) from being circumvent.

[Monica21]

It has nothing to do with what I say is or isn't DRM; it has to do with what the developers have said. They've said it isn't.

 

Origin is the DRM attached to Inquisition. It is the only thing which can limit your access to the game. The only thing that Denuvo does, according to Bioware, is protect the executable from being altered. Period. No more room for discussion.

 

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. It's not DRM in the traditional sense, but it's definitely management of digital content, no matter how you slice it. Protecting the .exe is managing and protecting digital content. Standing by and saying it's not DRM because a dev said it isn't is myopic at best.

[Dreamer]

I'm going to have to disagree with you here. It's not DRM in the traditional sense, but it's definitely management of digital content, no matter how you slice it. Protecting the .exe is managing and protecting digital content. Standing by and saying it's not DRM because a dev said it isn't is myopic at best.

 

It's not managing anything, though. It's a layer of anti-tamper software over the existing DRM (Origin). Management is a word which connotes action, while anti-tamper connotes passivity; it only does something as a reaction. DRM is active in the sense that it interacts with the player directly, either by limiting registrations, requiring online connectivity, or forcing physical boot methods. You will never encounter Denuvo unless you change the executable. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist until you do something illegal--which is probably why it works so well.

[Monica21]

It's not managing anything, though. It's a layer of anti-tamper software over the existing DRM (Origin). Management is a word which connotes action, while anti-tamper connotes passivity; it only does something as a reaction. DRM is active in the sense that it interacts with the player directly, either by limiting registrations, requiring online connectivity, or forcing physical boot methods. You will never encounter Denuvo unless you change the executable. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist until you do something illegal--which is probably why it works so well.

 

Except what we understand it to do is check the .exe on launching the game. Whether it continues to run in the background is something I'd like answered, but if it's doing that every time, then it's an active piece of software. Again, it's not a traditional means of DRM like SecuROM, but it is actively checking the code.

 

And fundamentally, any kind of software, whether active or passive that prevents change to a file, is still managing and protecting the digital content.

[MysterD77]

It's not managing anything, though. It's a layer of anti-tamper software over the existing DRM (Origin). Management is a word which connotes action, while anti-tamper connotes passivity; it only does something as a reaction. DRM is active in the sense that it interacts with the player directly, either by limiting registrations, requiring online connectivity, or forcing physical boot methods. You will never encounter Denuvo unless you change the executable. For all intents and purposes, it doesn't exist until you do something illegal--which is probably why it works so well.

 

But, it likely does exist! Likely, these files associated with it are going to be somewhere on your PC - likely, in the game folder or in Origin's program-folder somewhere. It's likely that Denuvo layer - whether it's wrapped on the EXE, or the files are going to be somewhere on your PC, or a combo of both. It's not like the check will be attached to the disc, like many did in the old days. These files are likely just going to be hibernating in the game folder sitting there b/c you ain't booted the game up; ain't running the game; and/or it doesn't run its process until you try to tamper w/ the EXE. I don't know how Denuvo works: I don't have a game using Denuvo yet to try to get an idea of how it works + and I really read much about it since it's one of the newer game-protection suites out there.

 

Obviously, if and when I'm gonna buy DA:I and put it on my PC - I'm gonna likely have to do more investigation on this, before I even decide to purchase this game. That is, unless EA and BioWare decides to patch Denuvo files out; or just patch the Denuvo-check out while letting the files just sit there - which all probably is quite doubtful, at least for the time being. Probably way too early for that, in numerous ways. DA:I PC hasn't even been released yet; and Denuvo hasn't cause any insane amount of problems to ridiculous amounts of users remotely yet to the level StarForce has done in the past.

 

Only time will tell.