98 réponses à ce sujet

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

LOL, I knew his voice was suspiciously high pitched. Its good to see a transgendered not only being a kickass mercenary warrior but also that no one in his mercenary company even questions his gender. Go Krem.

[Chari]

Which we're not arguing with? We're arguing with the idea that the Qun would see trans people as choosing their gender. Which is not necessarily true and considering all current evidence absent of any previous assumptions about trans people, actually seems more unlikely than the idea we're positing.

A man who sees themselves as a woman still has a body of a man. And vice versa
Qunari look at abilities both physical and mental and then give a role based on them. There is one choice - to serve your role or to refuse and die/be reeducated
Men are chosen to be warriors not because women can't fight, but because men are physically stronger. Women are thought to be better at governing. Even in science women and men work in different fields

[ladyoflate]

wow okay so you don't anything about anything it turns out and i've been assuming that you at least knew the ittiest-bittiest basics

right

bye-bye, learn some things before you comment on something like this again.

[Chari]

But it's not like they force redheads to dye their hair brown just because that's an unusual color. You're about as likely to be a natural redhead as you are to be trans, and from the Qun's perspective it can be considered just a bodily quirk. A woman's a woman if she says so, and she's a good Qunari if she stays within her role as a woman and doesn't fight. Genital configuration doesn't come into it.

Colour of hair has no influence on one's abilities
Sex differences has
It is sort of like Advanced Pokemon battles. Sure if you try hard enough you can make, e.g., Sceptile a physical sweeper. Most people will put all efforts into its Special Attack and/or use a pokemon with high Attack for a phys.sweeper

[Chari]

wow okay so you don't anything about anything it turns out and i've been assuming that you at least knew the ittiest-bittiest basics
right
bye-bye, learn some things before you comment on something like this again.

If you're talking about the paragraph then I simply mention what was said about qunari by devs. Apparently there are almost none roles in their society which both genders fulfill

[Ailith Tycane]

I don't think it really matters how the Qunari view it, because it seems like IB and the rest of his mercs treat him with respect. 

[Chari]

I don't think it really matters how the Qunari view it, because it seems like IB and the rest of his mercs treat him with respect.

Yeah

[Ammonite]

This.  I suspect Sten's confusion stems from the fact that you identify as female yet act in a male fashion.  If you identified as male then he'd accept you in a male role regardless of what actual bits you had under your clothes.

There are also RL examples of cultures with strict gender-roles that allows someone to take the roles of the other gender so long as they behave as that gender (albeit often with some restrictions) from there on out. Sworn Virgins of Albania for example.

[AceHalberd]

Sten plainly said that people don't choose who they are, so, ahem
Plus IB is a qunari who goes against many rules of his people. He treats Cole - demonic/spiritual being - as an actual kid and seems to treat mage qunquisitor just fine unlike

Spoiler

ArishokSten who refuses to even talk to us

Spoiler

Wow, he refuses to talk to us? I know of the Qunari belief that a Saarebas 'unleashed' is a walking hazard, but he got on well with a mage Warden just fine. Ouch; almost makes me consider a re-roll on my character. Almost.

[Chari]

Spoiler

Wow, he refuses to talk to us? I know of the Qunari belief that a Saarebas 'unleashed' is a walking hazard, but he got on well with a mage Warden just fine. Ouch; almost makes me consider a re-roll on my character. Almost.

Spoiler

He ignores only the kossith mage. He talks to elven and human mage. He also refuses to talk if we have IB in the party

Or so I was told

[Teddie Sage]

I'm pretty sure Krem's a transman so I'll be describing the character with masculine nouns instead.

[Hair Serious Business]

Spoiler

Wow, he refuses to talk to us? I know of the Qunari belief that a Saarebas 'unleashed' is a walking hazard, but he got on well with a mage Warden just fine. Ouch; almost makes me consider a re-roll on my character. Almost.

 

Spoiler

That is because Warden was never part of Qun or Qunari...while Qunari that is any Tal-Vashot especially mage is considered to be "living insult to the Qun".

[AceHalberd]

Spoiler

That is because Warden was never part of Qun or Qunari...while Qunari that is any Tal-Vashot especially mage is considered to be "living insult to the Qun".

I suppose you technically may have been born under the Qun. Fair enough.

[LOLandStuff]

Spoiler

That is because Warden was never part of Qun or Qunari...while Qunari that is any Tal-Vashot especially mage is considered to be "living insult to the Qun".

 

Priorities.

 

Spoiler

You'd think he learned something traveling with the Warden, especially a mage one. Such a disappointment he is. Guy is willing to let the world burn because of a Tal-Vashot mage.

[VelvetStraitjacket]

Can't wait to meet Krem and learn more about him.

 

 

Girl that disguise herself as a guy not as horrible as a guy, who disguise himself as a girl.

 

You should stay forgotten.

[WildOrchid]

I'm going to love Krem so much. I hope we can talk with him and share his views on the whole thing.

[andy6915]

It's possible that while the Qun has incredibly restrictive roles for men and women, they also just accept that you are what you say are. As in, if a child that everyone thought was a boy goes 'No, actually, girl here' they just go 'oops' and switch them over to priest training or whatever. The Qun in general seems very mind-over-body (dying is considered an acceptable choice to escape your role, as opposed to a horrible choice, you know?), so it's possible that they as a culture just don't have the same hangups regarding trans people that we do.

 

Sten's cognitive dissonance re: the Warden would then be because the Warden is a warrior who is insisting that they are in fact female, not because of any assumptions regarding the Warden's genitalia.

 

Makes me wonder, was Sten fishing for a transgender affirmation when he confronts a female Warden? Like he was expecting you to be like "yeah I look like a women but I'm actually a man", so when you instead said "yeah I'm a women" he got confused. He thought that if you're fighting then you must be a female with the mind of a male, because a female in body and mind isn't something he's ever encountered before. He expects any fighting females to be transgender. So when you weren't and actually were female and was okay with your gender, his mind went-

 

[Potato Cat]

Women and men can have different roles in extreme cases but they themselves would be apparently very unhappy about it
Aqun-athlok does not seem to be a thing acceptable among qunari indeed though

I really disagree, based on the term. It literally means something along the lines of Balance Worker, which I think is an interesting and respectful way of describing the problems a transgender person would be facing.

[daveliam]

 What I can't tell is if she is acting the part of a male or female, lol. He (she?) could pass for either, to my eyes.

I actually thought they were calling Krem gay. Born a man, but lives like a woman or to put bluntly "He's the receiver."

 

 

If I'm correctly understanding what I've read in the PC Gamer article that linked in the IB thread:

 

Spoiler

Krem identifies that he was born as a woman but is living as a man.  At some point in the conversation the idea of him "acting like a man" comes up and he insists that he's not pretending to be a man, but lives as a man.  To me, this is as close to confirming that he's a transman as you can get without using the term "transgender", which probably doesn't exist in Thedas. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

It actually makes some sense that the Qunari have this attitude.

 

To them, men fight. Krem, whatever else s/he is, walks like a man, fights like a man, well doesn't exactly talk like a man but basically, is more man than woman (in their eyes). Thus, Qunari can accept that she's actually an he and are a-OK with him fighting. That's how I imagine it at any rate.

[Chari]

I really disagree, based on the term. It literally means something along the lines of Balance Worker, which I think is an interesting and respectful way of describing the problems a transgender person would be facing.

Again, I talk based on the comments by devs. Mary Kirby once explained that in rare cases a woman can be a warrior and a man can be a farmer (lack of men or lack of women in certain periods of time, I guess? Post-war, probably) but "they'd be pretty unhappy about it" or sth similiar

Qunari society is very strict and relies heavily on gender roles

This is not some safe heaven

[AEve1]

Again, I talk based on the comments by devs. Mary Kirby once explained that in rare cases a woman can be a warrior and a man can be a farmer (lack of men or lack of women in certain periods of time, I guess? Post-war, probably) but "they'd be pretty unhappy about it" or sth similiar

Qunari society is very strict and relies heavily on gender roles

This is not some safe heaven

A brief primer on some useful terms: http://www.apa.org/p...definitions.pdf

 

It seems like the problem here is that you're confusing sex and gender. You read "man" and "woman" and think sex, which isn't the same thing as gender. The devs at Bioware generally try to use the right gender theory terms to describe things, so when they talk about gender, they usually mean the societal roles and characteristics that are associated with various sexes (biologically based). It seems, from Iron Bull and Sten's descriptions, that the Qunari are willing to let people of different sexes fulfill the roles of different genders as long as they adhere strictly to what the society as a whole considers normal for that gender. So someone born without a penis can still be allowed to fulfill male roles in the society, as long as they insist that they're male and act exactly as a male "should", but they'd be called "Aqun-Athlok." However, a female warden insists that she is female, and dresses and talks as though she is female, but then acts in a masculine way by fighting. That seems to be what confuses Sten, who wants to categorize her using a strictly defined Qunari role.

 

Like Ammonite mentions, there are real world precedents for this kind of strict gender role/non-binary gender identity. Sworn Virgins can be formally recognized as male in Albania and have the right to own land and inherit, and get treated just like men socially. There are also fa'afafine in Samoa, who are societally treated as women, trained in women's work, and who often have sex with men, but not other fa'afafine. Then there are hijras in India, kathoeys in Thailand, Blackfoot ninauposkitzipxpe, even eunuchs in Ancient Greece and Rome. It's really not that weird that a community with strictly defined gender roles could have more genders than just male and female.

 

Krem's gender identity is male, but his sex may be closer to female (I say "closer to" because biological sex isn't nearly as binary as we like to think it is, even in humans). His behavior fits Qunari ideas of masculinity, so Iron Bull calls him Aqun-Athlok.

 

Simple! Right?

[Chari]

A brief primer on some useful terms: http://www.apa.org/p...definitions.pdf

 

It seems like the problem here is that you're confusing sex and gender. You read "man" and "woman" and think sex, which isn't the same thing as gender. The devs at Bioware generally try to use the right gender theory terms to describe things, so when they talk about gender, they usually mean the societal roles and characteristics that are associated with various sexes (biologically based). It seems, from Iron Bull and Sten's descriptions, that the Qunari are willing to let people of different sexes fulfill the roles of different genders as long as they adhere strictly to what the society as a whole considers normal for that gender. So someone born without a penis can still be allowed to fulfill male roles in the society, as long as they insist that they're male and act exactly as a male "should", but they'd be called "Aqun-Athlok." However, a female warden insists that she is female, and dresses and talks as though she is female, but then acts in a masculine way by fighting. That seems to be what confuses Sten, who wants to categorize her using a strictly defined Qunari role.

 

Like Ammonite mentions, there are real world precedents for this kind of strict gender role/non-binary gender identity. Sworn Virgins can be formally recognized as male in Albania and have the right to own land and inherit, and get treated just like men socially. There are also fa'afafine in Samoa, who are societally treated as women, trained in women's work, and who often have sex with men, but not other fa'afafine. Then there are hijras in India, kathoeys in Thailand, Blackfoot ninauposkitzipxpe, even eunuchs in Ancient Greece and Rome. It's really not that weird that a community with strictly defined gender roles could have more genders than just male and female.

 

Krem's gender identity is male, but his sex may be closer to female (I say "closer to" because biological sex isn't nearly as binary as we like to think it is, even in humans). His behavior fits Qunari ideas of masculinity, so Iron Bull calls him Aqun-Athlok.

 

Simple! Right? 

I know the difference between gender and sex. I'm also aware that in many cultures and even in many species these roles are connected for pretty logical reasons

Everything we've learnt about qunari in DA:O and DA2 pretty much showed it as a society with strictest rules and gender roles plus expectations based on one's individual abilities and heritage. They use breeding system which is similiar to the real life animal breeding system: they match specific people to get children with specific traits. Need strong warriors? Breed a stout farmer with a hulky warrior and hope that their child turns out to be a boy. If it is a girl, make her a farmer or sth similiar and repeat till success (with a different pair, perhaps)

This is not a system of choice or individualism, it is a system of efficency and society. An individual serves the society, not the other way around. The society is more important than an individual. Heck, they even literally brainwash people and "reeducate" them if they do not fulfull their role properly

Their strict gender roles might be unethnical but they are efficent. Because - call me a sexist all you want - they use the natural differences between sexes to the max. Men are generally (not always) physically stronger hence they are more preferable to be warriors. Women are generally better at social skills and governing (or whatever you call it, connected to our biological mother-role-thing) hence they are farmers, babysitters etc. Both sexes can be scientists and philosophers yet even among these ranks women and men have different roles (according to MK). For example, when dealing with the willing (or not) to submit, women work with children and other women, men with men. Etc. 

Sure, a woman can be a capable warrior. A man can be a great artist. But again, for efficency sake, societes and systems like qunari's (which is more common among eastern cultures) treat individual cases as less important. A sweeping standardised approach is used because it brings better results in shorter time and with probably less resources

Hence Tamassrans choose what role a qunari will fulfill based on their heritage (genetics), physical and mental capabilities and partly their own interest (probably not really really important). Rather than a person her/himself

I do not wish this to become a heated debate, because I know too well this fandom and its obsession with headcanons and desire for a safe heaven in which all can be equal, no discrimination exists and happiness is obtainable. And it wouldn't be the first time qunari culture was retconned so I'm not even surprised warriors go into battle half-naked yet farmers wear full set of clothes just to avoid getting stung by bees??? unless you qunari folk are super-allergic to bees and super-immune to pointy steel things this is just bizarre

Still, to end my argumentation I'll simply quote Sten:

Why would women ever wish to be men?

A person is born. Qunari or human or elven or dwarf. He doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the colour of his hair aka biological and genetic etc traits. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are

Stuggle against what you are is an illusion in qunari's eyes. You either accept it or fall into chaos. Unless you're strong enough to prove being sth more, sth different. But, eh, we all know that the only way to impress a qunari is by being a death-machine XD. Not really possible at young age

[(Disgusted noise.)]

Strong enforcement of gender roles doesn't automatically make it anti-trans. For example, real life Iran is very gender role centric and homosexuality carries the possibility of the death penalty, yet they carry out more government sanctioned sexual reassignment surgeries than any other country in the world besides Thailand.

 

Anyway, I think it's great that they've introduced a trans character to be taken seriously. Plus, he's cute.

[AEve1]

 

[...]Need strong warriors? Breed a stout farmer with a hulky warrior and hope that their child turns out to be a boy. If it is a girl, make her a farmer or sth similiar and repeat till success (with a different pair, perhaps)

This is not a system of choice or individualism, it is a system of efficency and society. An individual serves the society, not the other way around. The society is more important than an individual. Heck, they even literally brainwash people and "reeducate" them if they do not fulfull their role properly

Their strict gender roles might be unethnical but they are efficent. Because - call me a sexist all you want - they use the natural differences between sexes to the max. Men are generally (not always) physically stronger hence they are more preferable to be warriors. Women are generally better at social skills and governing (or whatever you call it, connected to our biological mother-role-thing) hence they are farmers, babysitters etc.

[...]

 

Still, to end my argumentation I'll simply quote Sten:

Why would women ever wish to be men?

A person is born. Qunari or human or elven or dwarf. He doesn't choose that. The size of his hands, whether he is clever or foolish, the land he comes from, the colour of his hair aka biological and genetic etc traits. These are beyond his control. We do not choose, we simply are

Stuggle against what you are is an illusion in qunari's eyes. You either accept it or fall into chaos. Unless you're strong enough to prove being sth more, sth different. But, eh, we all know that the only way to impress a qunari is by being a death-machine XD. Not really possible at young age

 

Much as I'd love to argue about qunari gender roles, maybe this isn't the place for it? A different dedicated thread might be a better idea.