56 réponses à ce sujet

[helpthisguyplease]

 I am saying this because a templar is pretty much a warrior monk and as in real life most people do not wanna be monks. So I doubt they go in droves to enlist but the mages well are born and it seems that there is a fair number of them like 1/10 humans born is a mage and that is a lot.

[teenparty]

I don't think as many as one in ten become mages. Also, if there were more mages than templars, I think the mages would have rebelled sooner. Fireball beats sword every time.

[SovietCyborg]

 I am saying this because a templar is pretty much a warrior monk and as in real life most people do not wanna be monks. So I doubt they go in droves to enlist but the mages well are born and it seems that there is a fair number of them like 1/10 humans born is a mage and that is a lot.

 

Well, in the Middle Ages the church was probably more wealthy and more powerful than kings and feudal lords. This is to the point that some people claim that the Roman Empire never felt, it just became the Catholic Church. The sweet virtues of getting paid just to they can pray all day long to save souls of sinners like murderous knights and scheming nobles. 

 

Besides that, mages seem to be born at random, some of them being possessed or murdered by superstitious peasant before they can be trained. Meanwhile Templars, are limited just as much as the knights of old (their training began when they between 6-10 years old) plus the amount of Lyrium they can get.

[helpthisguyplease]

The system was quite good in keeping them in check and it was not the only rebellion. There was also one that led to the creation the the Circles were they could practice their magic in peace before they were only allowed to light the candle in cathedrals and churches with their magic.

Well, in the Middle Ages the church was probably more wealthy and more powerful than kings and feudal lords. This is to the point that some people claim that the Roman Empire never felt, it just became the Catholic Church. The sweet virtues of getting paid just to they can pray all day long to save souls of sinners like murderous knights and scheming nobles. 

 

Besides that, mages seem to be born at random, some of them being possessed or murdered by superstitious peasant before they can be trained. Meanwhile Templars, are limited just as much as the knights of old (their training began when they between 6-10 years old) plus the amount of Lyrium they can get.

  It was not true I will argue with one word the Ottonians.

[LightningPoodle]

Probably yes. There will more than likely be more Templars to Mages. I'm thinking 2:1, maybe 3:1 but then, a mage with a load of other mages is one powerful thing. They aren't to be taken lightly.

[setrus86]

I don't think as many as one in ten become mages. Also, if there were more mages than templars, I think the mages would have rebelled sooner. Fireball beats sword every time.

This.

 

Lets take it to the extreme and call the templars guards and the mages prisoners, the guards will always outnumber the prisoners.

 

And come now, there's many reasons for the average farmer/townsperson to join the templars:

Free room and board.

A lifetime job guaranteed as long as you don't royally screw up.

You're doing the Maker's work and as such are blessed and can be sure to come to his side when you die.

You get a uniform.

Your job will be less backbreaking than most alternatives avaible to you.

 

A pretty good deal if you want to gamble on not having to hunt too many rogue mages and the like.

[helpthisguyplease]

This.

 

Lets take it to the extreme and call the templars guards and the mages prisoners, the guards will always outnumber the prisoners.

 

And come now, there's many reasons for the average farmer/townsperson to join the templars:

Free room and board.

A lifetime job guaranteed as long as you don't royally screw up.

You're doing the Maker's work and as such are blessed and can be sure to come to his side when you die.

You get a uniform.

Your job will be less backbreaking than most alternatives avaible to you.

 

A pretty good deal if you want to gamble on not having to hunt too many rogue mages and the like.

Yeah but it also stops you from one of your basic needs. And really there more guards then prisoners in a penitenciary or jail?

[Tevinter Soldier]

 I am saying this because a templar is pretty much a warrior monk and as in real life most people do not wanna be monks. So I doubt they go in droves to enlist but the mages well are born and it seems that there is a fair number of them like 1/10 humans born is a mage and that is a lot.

 

well Vivenne briefly mentions 

Spoiler

Mages are in a war in which they're out numbered 100-1

so 1/10 seems off. 

[SovietCyborg]

Yeah but it also stops you from one of your basic needs. And really there more guards then prisoners in a penitenciary or jail?

 

Are you talking about sex? People were lining to become eunuchs in exchange of wealth and power in the kingdoms/sultanates/empires where this was practised. If you are a monk, nothing stops you from being utterly corrupt and going or even own brothels. Saving souls cost money after all. If you are a knight, you have plenty of chances to fall into sin. Remember that most armies were paid and feed by looting and burning cities and towns.

 

Besides, if you are already a knight, all you need to do to join the Templars is to drink Lyrium.

[helpthisguyplease]

well Vivenne briefly mentions 

Spoiler

Mages are in a war in which they're out numbered 100-1

so 1/10 seems off. 

That is kinds a overkill could she not meant that because the non templar armies also hate hate them probably the ones from the civil war?

 

Are you talking about sex? People were lining to become eunuchs in exchange of wealth and power in the kingdoms/sultanates/empires where this was practised. If you are a monk, nothing stops you from being utterly corrupt and going or even own brothels. Saving souls cost money after all. If you are a knight, you have plenty of chances to fall into sin. Remember that most armies were paid and feed by looting and burning cities and towns.

 

Besides, if you are already a knight, all you need to do to join the Templars is to drink Lyrium.

Then why a huge amount of them were slaves that were forcibly castrated it seems there were no lack of people that desired to become one. Still something is strange life is not as good now that they are not part of the chantry and war is backbreaking and head breaking and cutting and heart stabbing and disease full.

[Jouni S]

According to the wiki, the population of Ferelden is around one million. Even if the figure is not canon, it seems to be within the right order of magnitude for a feudal kingdom of that size.

We've seen Ferelden's Circle of Magi from inside. Based on what we saw, most of the mages there know each other by name. This suggests that the number of mages living in the Circle Tower is at most hundreds. Even if we assume that most mages live outside the Circle, the number of mages in the entire Ferelden is probably less than a thousand. The Warden and his/her friends killed a significant fraction of them.

Mages thus appear to be very rare. Templars, on the other hand, seem to be a bit more common. In order for them to be an effective force keeping the mages under control, every Circle must have had at least similar numbers of templars as mages. In addition to that, there seem to be templars guarding chantries everywhere. Based on this, I'd say that there are several times more templars than mages, but probably less than 10 times as many. After all, it's hard to maintain standing armies larger than around 1% of the population, and the templars are not the only standing army.

Spoiler

Let's assume that the "outnumbered by 100-1" is a real estimate, and not a random number given by a writer who didn't think about it. Then there could not have been more than a hundred mages in the entire Ferelden, and almost none of them survived the Blight and the Warden.

[setrus86]

Yeah but it also stops you from one of your basic needs. And really there more guards then prisoners in a penitenciary or jail?

 

Is templars sworn to celibacy? Didn't seem like that in Kirkwall or such, seemed more like a recomendation more than anything. That said, you're quite right about the jail thing, was a bad example by me. Still, given how many templars guard mages in circle towers, and the numbers Meredith had in Kirkwall, enough to control the whole city, I think it's fair to say the templars would outnumber the mages. They're after all everywhere the chantry is...which is kind of creepy, when you think about it. Small regiments of soldiers not ruled by the ruler of the nation they're in... :-p

[helpthisguyplease]

According to the wiki, the population of Ferelden is around one million. Even if the figure is not canon, it seems to be within the right order of magnitude for a feudal kingdom of that size.

We've seen Ferelden's Circle of Magi from inside. Based on what we saw, most of the mages there know each other by name. This suggests that the number of mages living in the Circle Tower is at most hundreds. Even if we assume that most mages live outside the Circle, the number of mages in the entire Ferelden is probably less than a thousand. The Warden and his/her friends killed a significant fraction of them.

Mages thus appear to be very rare. Templars, on the other hand, seem to be a bit more common. In order for them to be an effective force keeping the mages under control, every Circle must have had at least similar numbers of templars as mages. In addition to that, there seem to be templars guarding chantries everywhere. Based on this, I'd say that there are several times more templars than mages, but probably less than 10 times as many. After all, it's hard to maintain standing armies larger than around 1% of the population, and the templars are not the only standing army.

Spoiler

Let's assume that the "outnumbered by 100-1" is a real estimate, and not a random number given by a writer who didn't think about it. Then there could not have been more than a hundred mages in the entire Ferelden, and almost none of them survived the Blight and the Warden.

Then why are mages a problem I mean even if one mage is taken over by a pride demon with thousands on one demon he will be ripped apart. My point is why are people so scared of them they are to few to be a real threat.

[SovietCyborg]

 

 

That is kinds a overkill could she not meant that because the non templar armies also hate hate them probably the ones from the civil war? Still something is strange life is not as good now that they are not part of the chantry and war is backbreaking and head breaking and cutting and heart stabbing and disease full.

 

You can always kidnap peasants and force them to become soldiers. How do you think Europe waged the self-perpetuating 100 years war and the even more terrifying 30 years war?  Say you capture a castle, and for 10 years you live like a lord in a land it doesn't belong to you. Suddenly both sides sign a peace treaty and you are ask to leave with nothing. Why would you anyone ever want to go home? When the parties decide to signed a peace treaty, the knights/soldiers/mercenaries gave the finger to their king and emperor and kept going. Eventually the knights/mercenaries became bands of robbers at a nightmarish scale. In the 100 years war they even marched to Avignon and threatened to attack the pope himself unless he handed over a "a spiritual uplifting sum of money".

 

 

 

Then why a huge amount of them were slaves that were forcibly castrated it seems there were no lack of people that desired to become one.

The purpose of the eunuch was to work as civil servants and bodyguards of the throne. The reason behind them, just the reason behind any form of celibacy, it's because they wont try to overthrow you, usurp your throne and won't form self-perpetuating dynasties. A king without a heir is an easy target for assassination. It's too easy to ruin an usurp kingdom that has no heir. Also generally you want them to come from humble places so they can be 100% loyal to you. Eventually, they might realise they are their organization places them in the perfect position to be kingmakers, but until then they are the perfect servants. 

[R0vena]

Templars are not sworn to celibacy. Wesley was married to Aveline, Trask had a daughter. We know for sure a lot of Templars visited the Rose in Kirkwall. They are probably not married in general because they dedicate their whole life to the job and don't have much of the opportunity.

[Original_Bars]

If you read some of the lore on DA:I it becomes clear the chantry is a continent wide organization with templars used for all sorts of protection details. even as armies during exalted marches.

 

So its safe to say the templars have a large standing army, whereas circle mages where scattered across several towers across the land with only a few hundred mages and apprentices at most per tower.

 

However keep in mind, the warring 'templars' encountered during the events of DA:I are rogue templars, they are not part off the official division within the chantry anymore. the templars got issued a stand down order in the event priors to DA:I, battalions of rogue templars defied it and left the chantry to pursue the mages.

 

 

So i'd say prior to DAII the templars vastly outnumbered the mages, but now the 'official' templars are only a shadow of its former self.

 

So are the circle mages, not all towers rebelled, i believe from the lore some towers stayed out of the fight, happy to keep living a protected life withing the towers.

[Br3admax]

Templars are just discouraged from having children because of their jobs. They can marry. It's also because most people don't want to move to the Tower and be surrounded by mages all day. Templars however should not marry other Templars because of fraternization issues. 

[herkles]

 

well Vivenne briefly mentions 

Spoiler

Mages are in a war in which they're out numbered 100-1

so 1/10 seems off. 

 

Spoiler

well I believe vivi is counting the average person + templars in whom the mages are up against.

 

Yeah but it also stops you from one of your basic needs. And really there more guards then prisoners in a penitenciary or jail?

 

Lyrium doesn't stop your basic needs. Yes it is a drug, but it doesn't stop any of your needs from being fullfilled. Also unlike RL monastic orders, there doesn't appear to be any vow of celibacy in the order. Remember that Aveline and wesely were married, and that Ser Thrask had a daughter and no one seems to be upset that he had a child. 

 

 

Are you talking about sex? People were lining to become eunuchs in exchange of wealth and power in the kingdoms/sultanates/empires where this was practised. If you are a monk, nothing stops you from being utterly corrupt and going or even own brothels. Saving souls cost money after all. If you are a knight, you have plenty of chances to fall into sin. Remember that most armies were paid and feed by looting and burning cities and towns.

 

Besides, if you are already a knight, all you need to do to join the Templars is to drink Lyrium.

Then why a huge amount of them were slaves that were forcibly castrated it seems there were no lack of people that desired to become one. Still something is strange life is not as good now that they are not part of the chantry and war is backbreaking and head breaking and cutting and heart stabbing and disease full.

 

In China, where eunachs were heavily used, they were not slaves but civil servants. Men willingly became eunachs. Why? because of the wealth and power that being a eunach in china granted them. they were meant to be loyal to the emperor, and as a civil servant the empire. By being a eunach, it also meant no need to worry about sleeping with the ladies of the court but focusing on the job. They often got a reputation, rightly or wrongly, for scheming.

 

While in china they were not slaves, in the ottoman empire they were. still even then you must keep in mind that they had power and wealth that most people couldn't have. Hell in Egypt during the middle ages, the Mamluks(slave-soldiers) became kings of one of the dynasties that ruled the region. 

 

 

You can always kidnap peasants and force them to become soldiers. How do you think Europe waged the self-perpetuating 100 years war and the even more terrifying 30 years war?  Say you capture a castle, and for 10 years you live like a lord in a land it doesn't belong to you. Suddenly both sides sign a peace treaty and you are ask to leave with nothing. Why would you anyone ever want to go home? When the parties decide to signed a peace treaty, the knights/soldiers/mercenaries gave the finger to their king and emperor and kept going. Eventually the knights/mercenaries became bands of robbers at a nightmarish scale. In the 100 years war they even marched to Avignon and threatened to attack the pope himself unless he handed over a "a spiritual uplifting sum of money".

 

Well in regards to the 100s year war there were times of peace that allowed the levies of england and france to repopulate themselves. It was much more true of taking people into the care of soliders in the 30 and eighty years war over the 100 years war. T

[Jouni S]

Then why are mages a problem I mean even if one mage is taken over by a pride demon with thousands on one demon he will be ripped apart. My point is why are people so scared of them they are to few to be a real threat.

When faced with scary and dangerous situations, most people don't choose to fight. In fact, they don't choose anything, because most people are unable to think rationally in such situations. If they've been trained to fight, they can follow their training reactively. Otherwise they'll probably freeze. Panic is another possibility, but it's rarer in reality than in fiction.

[Fredward]

Pretty sure templars, even fractured, waaaaay outnumber the mages. But mages set your eyes on fire so it kinda evens out.

[Yermogi]

Templars are not forbidden to get married and have families. Ser Thrask and Wesley, Aveline's first husband for example.

 

Anyway, the answer to the question is most definitely yes. Templar armies are bigger than Mage armies. Mages are rare. Not incredibly so as otherwise there'd be far fewer Circles, but definitely far fewer than Templars. Mages are born with magic, you can't train to get those abilities. Meanwhile, anyone can become a Templar with enough discipline and training in theory. That means that the Templars are able to replenish their ranks far, far easier than Mages can. 

 

Also, while a single mage can probably set a large group of Templars on fire, Templars can knock out their mana reserves in an instant and skewer them like a kabob. Mages have the short end of the stick when it comes to this war. They have no support, no resources, and most of them haven't left the Tower in years. Add that to a significant lack of worldly experience for most of the mages, and they're at a horrible disadvantage. I feel for the mages. I support their goals, but it would take a miracle for them to make any significant headway in a war.

[setrus86]

 

Also, while a single mage can probably set a large group of Templars on fire, Templars can knock out their mana reserves in an instant and skewer them like a kabob. Mages have the short end of the stick when it comes to this war. They have no support, no resources, and most of them haven't left the Tower in years. Add that to a significant lack of worldly experience for most of the mages, and they're at a horrible disadvantage. I feel for the mages. I support their goals, but it would take a miracle for them to make any significant headway in a war.

 

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

How will a mage, on the run, feed him or herself? What berries can they eat? Where is it safe to sleep? How do you hunt? How will you pay for things? 

 

Templars at least enjoy a level of respectability and trust among the common folk, meanwhile the mages have to deal with not only being ostrachised from the beginning, but enter a world still reeling from two magic-related explosions.

 

With no real income, no base of operation (unless they captured a circle tower?), no goodwill with the people around them and no real-life experience or military experience or...ANY experience, really, they're in a horrible position. Heck, if the templars actually eased off and didn't go so hard on the normal people in the war against the mages, they would probably have an easier time since they'd get everyone on their side...Kirkwall deja vu, anyone? 

[renfrees]

well Vivenne briefly mentions 

Spoiler

Mages are in a war in which they're out numbered 100-1

so 1/10 seems off. 

Fiona also mentions the same ratio in the mage's recruitment mission.

[Jouni S]

Also, while a single mage can probably set a large group of Templars on fire, Templars can knock out their mana reserves in an instant and skewer them like a kabob. Mages have the short end of the stick when it comes to this war. They have no support, no resources, and most of them haven't left the Tower in years. Add that to a significant lack of worldly experience for most of the mages, and they're at a horrible disadvantage. I feel for the mages. I support their goals, but it would take a miracle for them to make any significant headway in a war.

It looks like a classic case of asymmetric warfare. The initial losses will be high for the mages, but the survivors will adapt. They won't face the templars directly, but they will remain hidden and engage in guerrilla warfare instead. Wherever templars have strongholds, water will turn into poison, harvests will fail, and animals will become sick and die. When templars try to import food and water, mages will attack the supply lines. When templars stretch their forces thin by guarding their supply lines, mages will try to assassinate enemy leaders.

It will be an ugly war, because fair fighting is for stupid people, and mages are really frightening beings even without demonic possession.

[herkles]

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

How will a mage, on the run, feed him or herself? What berries can they eat? Where is it safe to sleep? How do you hunt? How will you pay for things? 

I forsee two things.

 

experince mage: okay now, remember to shoot the deer with minor magical abilites not fireballs.

new mage: fireball? okay *casts fireball sets the forest on fire*

experinced mage: *face palms*

 

or/and

 

mage: merchant give me your food now!

merchant: *states the price*

mage: I have no money.

Merchant: then no service.

mage: how about I fireball you shop and burn you alive!

merchant: here please don't kill me.