56 réponses à ce sujet

[helpthisguyplease]

Couldn't have said it any better myself.

 

How will a mage, on the run, feed him or herself? What berries can they eat? Where is it safe to sleep? How do you hunt? How will you pay for things? 

 

Templars at least enjoy a level of respectability and trust among the common folk, meanwhile the mages have to deal with not only being ostrachised from the beginning, but enter a world still reeling from two magic-related explosions.

 

With no real income, no base of operation (unless they captured a circle tower?), no goodwill with the people around them and no real-life experience or military experience or...ANY experience, really, they're in a horrible position. Heck, if the templars actually eased off and didn't go so hard on the normal people in the war against the mages, they would probably have an easier time since they'd get everyone on their side...Kirkwall deja vu, anyone? 

I might be saying something stupid but not all mages are born in the circle some are captured when there are adults and as you all saw in DAO and DA2 there were quite a number of apostates I men in DAO there was a entire organization of apostates that gave you quest. I bet that there are quite a number of mages with experience and resources as that organization in Ferelden of apostates that even the odds. Also I think there more apostates then circle mages but I can not prove it.

[Augustei]

Yes, Templars tend to ensure they outnumber their charges so they will probably have double the mages numbers

[Yermogi]

I might be saying something stupid but not all mages are born in the circle some are captured when there are adults and as you all saw in DAO and DA2 there were quite a number of apostates I men in DAO there was a entire organization of apostates that gave you quest. I bet that there are quite a number of mages with experience and resources as that organization in Ferelden of apostates that even the odds. Also I think there more apostates then circle mages but I can not prove it.

I agree with you to an extent, but not completely. True, not all mages are born in the Circle and are brought to it when they're older, BUT due to the views of magic held in most societies, I would say that not going to the Circle is a rare exception, especially among humans and city elves. I'd say nearly every parent gives their child to the Circle willingly, either because they want nothing to do with a mage, or because they believe it will be healthier and better for the child in the long run, as in the case of Finn from Witch Hunt. 

 

Because of this, I highly doubt that there are more apostates than mages, at least among humans. Even if a lot of them did escape in childhood, it's been stated by Gaider that mages, without training, are at a severe disadvantage because trying to teach yourself how to use magic is like trying to go straight into juggling knives. There's an overwhelming chance that you'll severely hurt yourself and others around you. Anywhere that there's hedge mages, there's masters and apprentices, or in the case of the Dalish, the Keepers and their Seconds. You have to have training, or you'll probably end up exploding yourself.

 

Also, you're assuming that the Apostates will want to work with Circle mages. Apostates's entire lives revolve around their ability to keep themselves and their talents hidden from sight. If they go out and start helping the rebelling mages, the Templars will see them, and they won't let them get away. They'll either be killed, Tranquilized, or sent to a Circle. I highly doubt that any apostate would go out of their way to help a rebelling mage. It isn't in their best interest to do so. It just wouldn't be smart.

 

As far as experienced Mages go... I don't know how effective they would really be in helping with the war. Mages who leave the Circle generally go work in cities. You rarely hear of a Circle mage who becomes a recluse, or even one who is allowed to do so. You have to have a LOT of sway with the Templars at your Circle to be allowed to essentially go out on your own like that with little to no supervision.

[helpthisguyplease]

I agree with you to an extent, but not completely. True, not all mages are born in the Circle and are brought to it when they're older, BUT due to the views of magic held in most societies, I would say that not going to the Circle is a rare exception, especially among humans and city elves. I'd say nearly every parent gives their child to the Circle willingly, either because they want nothing to do with a mage, or because they believe it will be healthier and better for the child in the long run, as in the case of Finn from Witch Hunt. 

 

Because of this, I highly doubt that there are more apostates than mages, at least among humans. Even if a lot of them did escape in childhood, it's been stated by Gaider that mages, without training, are at a severe disadvantage because trying to teach yourself how to use magic is like trying to go straight into juggling knives. There's an overwhelming chance that you'll severely hurt yourself and others around you. Anywhere that there's hedge mages, there's masters and apprentices, or in the case of the Dalish, the Keepers and their Seconds. You have to have training, or you'll probably end up exploding yourself.

 

Also, you're assuming that the Apostates will want to work with Circle mages. Apostates's entire lives revolve around their ability to keep themselves and their talents hidden from sight. If they go out and start helping the rebelling mages, the Templars will see them, and they won't let them get away. They'll either be killed, Tranquilized, or sent to a Circle. I highly doubt that any apostate would go out of their way to help a rebelling mage. It isn't in their best interest to do so. It just wouldn't be smart.

 

As far as experienced Mages go... I don't know how effective they would really be in helping with the war. Mages who leave the Circle generally go work in cities. You rarely hear of a Circle mage who becomes a recluse, or even one who is allowed to do so. You have to have a LOT of sway with the Templars at your Circle to be allowed to essentially go out on your own like that with little to no supervision.

You have a point there like peasant rebellions in the medieval world just far fewer they had not experience or training in the art of war and there was only one in the entire European medieval history that was succesful and that was because they a brilliant leader. One in hundreds is not in the favor of mages but who knows they might have that brilliant leader that bulgarian peasant rebellion had. Also that leader had no experience either he just had the thing that made him a great tactician.

[Fredward]

Templars are not forbidden to get married and have families. Ser Thrask and Wesley, Aveline's first husband for example.

 

Anyway, the answer to the question is most definitely yes. Templar armies are bigger than Mage armies. Mages are rare. Not incredibly so as otherwise there'd be far fewer Circles, but definitely far fewer than Templars. Mages are born with magic, you can't train to get those abilities. Meanwhile, anyone can become a Templar with enough discipline and training in theory. That means that the Templars are able to replenish their ranks far, far easier than Mages can. 

 

Also, while a single mage can probably set a large group of Templars on fire, Templars can knock out their mana reserves in an instant and skewer them like a kabob. Mages have the short end of the stick when it comes to this war. They have no support, no resources, and most of them haven't left the Tower in years. Add that to a significant lack of worldly experience for most of the mages, and they're at a horrible disadvantage. I feel for the mages. I support their goals, but it would take a miracle for them to make any significant headway in a war.

 

You forget one thing though. Lyrium. Without it the templars are just heavy plated warriors, so much dross for the mages to sweep away. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with their deal with the dwarves, needless to say they won't be supplying the templars anymore. Now as I see it the templars will be looking to take over that deal from the Chantry but I don't see why that would appeal to the dwarves seeing as how the templars don't really have any economic base, not even mentioning it would earn them the enmity of the mages should they wind up winning and quite possible the Chantry as well. The templars can try and TAKE it as well but fighting the dwarves AND mages won't go to great for them, or I can't imagine it going too great for them.

 

The most reasonable thing I can see the dwarves doing is shutting off the trade until the surface gets its **** together. Currently the Chantry doesn't have much use to it since it no longer has a drug addicted army to keep hooked, it can't use it's slave labour to turn it into lucre-making products and neither the mages or the templars have the funds to secure it instead. Not that the mages REALLY need it. I think this is a large reason why some of the templars turn to the red lyrium instead, well that and the withdrawal. That or they can supply everyone which kinda seems like something Bhelen might do.

 

So yeah. Initial casualties on the mages side extremely high, possibly disastrous as the templars have both the training and the lyrium they need but afterwards? After the mages start to adapt? When the lyrium starts running out? That would be a good time to be a mage.

[The Baconer]

Yes, they are. This among other advantages makes one wonder why they had to concede to a truce?

 

Were the mages that good? Or the Templars that bad?

 

Lets take it to the extreme and call the templars guards and the mages prisoners, the guards will always outnumber the prisoners.

Actually no, the opposite is true quite often.

[Tevinter Soldier]

If you read some of the lore on DA:I it becomes clear the chantry is a continent wide organization with templars used for all sorts of protection details. even as armies during exalted marches.

 

So its safe to say the templars have a large standing army, whereas circle mages where scattered across several towers across the land with only a few hundred mages and apprentices at most per tower.

 

However keep in mind, the warring 'templars' encountered during the events of DA:I are rogue templars, they are not part off the official division within the chantry anymore. the templars got issued a stand down order in the event priors to DA:I, battalions of rogue templars defied it and left the chantry to pursue the mages.

 

 

So i'd say prior to DAII the templars vastly outnumbered the mages, but now the 'official' templars are only a shadow of its former self.

 

So are the circle mages, not all towers rebelled, i believe from the lore some towers stayed out of the fight, happy to keep living a protected life withing the towers.

 

nope they all fled the ones that didnt flee, well two entire circles were annulled.

[KC_Prototype]

Yes but think of this, one mage could kill 5 or so templars at once so....

[Yermogi]

You forget one thing though. Lyrium. Without it the templars are just heavy plated warriors, so much dross for the mages to sweep away. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with their deal with the dwarves, needless to say they won't be supplying the templars anymore. Now as I see it the templars will be looking to take over that deal from the Chantry but I don't see why that would appeal to the dwarves seeing as how the templars don't really have any economic base, not even mentioning it would earn them the enmity of the mages should they wind up winning and quite possible the Chantry as well. The templars can try and TAKE it as well but fighting the dwarves AND mages won't go to great for them, or I can't imagine it going too great for them.

 

The most reasonable thing I can see the dwarves doing is shutting off the trade until the surface gets its **** together. Currently the Chantry doesn't have much use to it since it no longer has a drug addicted army to keep hooked, it can't use it's slave labour to turn it into lucre-making products and neither the mages or the templars have the funds to secure it instead. Not that the mages REALLY need it. I think this is a large reason why some of the templars turn to the red lyrium instead, well that and the withdrawal. That or they can supply everyone which kinda seems like something Bhelen might do.

 

So yeah. Initial casualties on the mages side extremely high, possibly disastrous as the templars have both the training and the lyrium they need but afterwards? After the mages start to adapt? When the lyrium starts running out? That would be a good time to be a mage.

You make an excellent point with the lyrium; I hadn't thought of that. But that's assuming that they go by legal means to get their lyrium, which they probably wouldn't as time goes by. The longer they'd go without lyrium, the more desperate they'd become to the point where they'd probably be looting caravans for lyrium to get their fix.

 

I have to concede that their efforts would likely be severely blunted by the lack of lyrium. However, there are still a lot of them, and at the beginning they'd have enough of the stuff to keep going for a while if they rationed it. If they're smart about their attacks (which they should be), then they'd have little problems wiping out the pockets of mages that they find. By the end of the war, even having run out of the lyrium, they'd probably still have killed enough of the mages that the ones left would probably be on the run. With little to no support from local people and probably no money, they'd most likely be finished in no time at all.

 

Of course, this is assuming that the Templars would go about this logically, which they very well may not. If they turn to Red Lyrium, there's very little doubt in my mind that they're slowly going insane, which does give the mages a HUGE advantage. Still, at the beginning of the war the mages will be very hard pressed in fights and would likely lose most of their battles.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Templar Order at its height in the Dragon Age operated across eight countries, had chapters all across the continent,  thousands under its banner and was extremely well equipped.

 

But from what i can gather the breach decimated both sides of the war; thousands perished on either side, those losses likely weakened both sides dramatically.

[Master Warder Z_]

You forget one thing though. Lyrium. Without it the templars are just heavy plated warriors, so much dross for the mages to sweep away. The Chantry controls the lyrium trade with their deal with the dwarves, needless to say they won't be supplying the templars 

 

You seem to forget one thing though; who do you think watched over the Lyrium storehouses prior to the annulling of the accord?

 

I think the Templars were and are quite capable of field operation given that they likely took near all the Chantry's lyrium on the surface.

[Tevinter Soldier]

Yes but think of this, one mage could kill 5 or so templars at once so....

 

the problem is with this your average mage can't,, many mages can't even light a candle without passing out and near will. Anyone who pays attention to lore know this is reinstated several times, people gloss over this fact for 2 reasons

 

A) they want illustrate the threat mage's pose and someone who's the wizard equivalently of a fainting goat doesn't suit their argument.

they seek to highlight how powerful and badarse mages are and mentioning a benchwarmer doesn't really help.

 

the fact is for many mages their magic is next to use, which is why the templars controlled mages for so long, they litterally can't do anything with it.

look at it like a zero tolerance drug policy, a pot laced durry gets you the same sentence as importing 200Kg's of straight heroin. (in this case life)

 

so far the number of mundanes to magi keeps being pointed to as the same number

Spoiler

100:1

although some are determined to ignore this its the figure we are given. there are more magi then most believe but many of them are not combat capable. if i'd hazard a guess and all it would be would be a guess, when you look at the number of mage's slaughtered especially in dawn of the seekers with its dangerous blood mages i'd wager nearly 30% of magi have almost no magic abilities and the greatest spell ever cast was either eyes changed colour at 13 and were thrown into a circle tower as a result.

[trying_touch]

While the Templars probably outnumber the mages, I doubt they overpower them. Mages have the creatures of the Fade on their side :-)

[Tevinter Soldier]

You seem to forget one thing though; who do you think watched over the Lyrium storehouses prior to the annulling of the accord?

 

I think the Templars were and are quite capable of field operation given that they likely took near all the Chantry's lyrium on the surface.

 

plus without the Dwarf's don't care about the chantry it has no sway over them, the chantry wont buy lyrium they don't need and the dwarfs are hardly going to knock back a deal to supply an army of templars so long as they can meet the price and even if they did there's the carta.

[Master Warder Z_]

A) they want illustrate the threat mage's pose and someone who's the wizard equivalently of a fainting goat doesn't suit their argument.

 

I don't wish to derail but that argument's a half truth.

 

Magic doesn't necessarily have to be dangerous in and of it self; due to the ease of which a Mage can be possessed and become a monster.

 

That's the other side of the argument and the half you left out because it didn't suit your argument.

[Fredward]

You seem to forget one thing though; who do you think watched over the Lyrium storehouses prior to the annulling of the accord?

 

I think the Templars were and are quite capable of field operation given that they likely took near all the Chantry's lyrium on the surface.

 

Nope, hadn't forgotten. It's a finite source though (not even mentioning that the templars are no longer a cohesive force, some are still loyal to the Chantry and would no doubt be guarding the supplies, brother slaying brother can't be good for morale) all the mages have to do is play a game of attrition and squeeze shut the supply lines [assuming there ARE supply lines, the dwarves have no real reason to supply them] and the templar problem will take care of itself. The templars COULD have won if they struck hard, fast and brutally but now it's been two years and they seem to be fraying at a alarming rate. Sheer numbers could still do it but eh. If I  was leading the mages I would've split the mages up and sent them all hurtling in different directions. Have a hundred or so guarding Orzammar and Kal'Sharok, maybe foster some goodwill amongst the peasantry, allow the occasional mage to run away either they'll get away or go abomination either would serve the cause of slowing the templars down. It's all good in the hood.

[Tevinter Soldier]

I don't wish to derail but that argument's a half truth.

 

Magic doesn't necessarily have to be dangerous in and of it self; due to the ease of which a Mage can be possessed and become a monster.

 

That's the other side of the argument and the half you left out because it didn't suit your argument.

 

not really an abomination is only as powerful as the mage it posses's. in fact what scares so many is that suddenly a circle mage that knows maybe 30 spells suddenly can know the most powerful spells in existence bringing forth ash wraiths torturing people with mind spells. it is knowledge and malevolence that the abomination brings. 

 

they have the mages "full power". a mage that has bugger all mana wont be flaying people left right and centre. this is why demons target the more powerful mages.

[Master Warder Z_]

not really an abomination is only as powerful as the mage it posses

 

It's given an infinite connection to the Fade through the demon, its anchored into the source of Magic, by a construct of magic.

 

So excuse me for disagreeing.

[Master Warder Z_]

Nope, hadn't forgotten. It's a finite source though

 

How much Lyrium do you think were stored across the south? I wonder, i mean how much Lyrium does a circle go through for rituals and spell casting? 

 

All of the Lyrium stored at the circles, fell into Templar hands, Then note the vast majority of the Order left to follow Lambert to war and it becomes quite evident that the "finite" source is entirely within their hands.

 

Honestly i'd expect mention of a Lyrium shortage if it existed, and yet there has been nothing even hinted at indicating such, pre release or no.

 

After all you don't loot a peasant's shack for lyrium, you do that for food.

 

 

all the mages have to do is play a game of attrition

 

Its hard to do that with a force like the Templars that have numeric superiority and the capability to engage, if the Hinterlands are any indicator despite it being "two" years, the forces are still engaging each other in regular sorties.

 

So attrition obviously isn't working.

[Tevinter Soldier]

It's given an infinite connection to the Fade through the demon, its anchored into the source of Magic, by a construct of magic.

 

So excuse me for disagreeing.

 

Both Wyne and Anders show that isn't true, both are susceptible to over exerting themselves. despite being possessed by fade entity's

 

And if the demon provided a constant channel of mana then their the source of magic, literally anyone possessed would be an abomination able to cast horrifying spells.

[berrieh]

First of all, I will be very surprised and disappointed if ALL mages or ALL templars are united in anything. I imagine there are at least 3 groups of each (real extremists, like the red templars or organized bloodmages, the mid-line groups we'll likely have to stop from warring, and loyalists to the Chantry on both side, like Vivienne's mages and some of the Templars still hanging around Haven). 

 

I think there were more mages than templars at each Circle, but templars also served in other ways and places, so that may even it out some. However, there is probably a pretty close Enchanter/Templar ratio overall (counting the Templars not at the Circles) since many people at each Circle were Apprentices. 

 

not really an abomination is only as powerful as the mage it posses's. 

 

I believe this is untrue. A very weak mage (much more likely to become an abomination, actually) can become a powerful abomination, according to the World of Thedas and Wiki. An abomination of a more powerful mage might be more powerful, but an abomination is clearly more powerful than the mage it possesses. (Perhaps this is that mage's "true power" but not unlocked, but that's semantics.) 

[helpthisguyplease]

First of all, I will be very surprised and disappointed if ALL mages or ALL templars are united in anything. I imagine there are at least 3 groups of each (real extremists, like the red templars or organized bloodmages, the mid-line groups we'll likely have to stop from warring, and loyalists to the Chantry on both side, like Vivienne's mages and some of the Templars still hanging around Haven). 

 

I think there were more mages than templars at each Circle, but templars also served in other ways and places, so that may even it out some. However, there is probably a pretty close Enchanter/Templar ratio overall (counting the Templars not at the Circles) since many people at each Circle were Apprentices. 

 

 

I believe this is untrue. A very weak mage (much more likely to become an abomination, actually) can become a powerful abomination, according to the World of Thedas and Wiki. An abomination of a more powerful mage might be more powerful, but an abomination is clearly more powerful than the mage it possesses. (Perhaps this is that mage's "true power" but not unlocked, but that's semantics.) 

Go on you are saying something interesting with those semantics.

[berrieh]

Go on you are saying something interesting with those semantics.

 

Not sure what you're implying, so let me flesh it out, in case I was unclear.

 

Semantics meaning if we measure a person's power not by how much power they can actually wield (i.e. perhaps weak mages are weak not because of natural power - say a Magic stat - but because they have Willpower 1 or something and thus the demon that possesses then, which has a very high Willpower, is able to use that Magic power better). Either way, the result is clearly more powerful, dangerous, and capable of much more destruction than the original mage. I don't know about all that, but I do know WoT and the Wiki (which is really just deriving info from WoT) says abominations of weak mages are terribly powerful. 

[garrusfan1]

it's more like one in a hundred are born mages. otherwise they would have taken ove rthedas and held it. Also from what I understand some mages are helping the templars. In the game viveene brings up a good point about rebeling when they did. (watched on youtube.)

[helpthisguyplease]

it's more like one in a hundred are born mages. otherwise they would have taken ove rthedas and held it. Also from what I understand some mages are helping the templars. In the game viveene brings up a good point about rebeling when they did. (watched on youtube.)

They did over Thedas and held it for hundreds of years. Of course after the blight and the rebellions they lost their power in most of Thedas and they were kept under strict supervision by the chantry so they could not take over again.