1144 réponses à ce sujet

[Lord Surinen]

I support all pure bred elves of Tevinter stock. I qualify myself as one of them. I have no sympathy for the primitive practises of my less fortunate cousins.

 

one more day until I get a chance to sink in the character creation.

[Sully13]

Ooooooh look at her.

[Mistic]

Spoiler

a former dalish who is your monster researcher says that she was forced to leave her clan because she had magic power and there were too many mages in the clan.  She says she left to find another clan when she was 7 years old.  She almost starved to death before stumbling into a human village. 

 

Fascinating stuff. It apparently contradicts what we know of Merrill's past (she was born in a clan with too many mage children, but she was given to the Sabrae, not killed), and the story about Lanaya competing to be the First against other candidates.

 

However, the important word is "apparently". A limited number of available teachers (Keepers) would make teaching more and more mages a difficult task, dangerous when they have to live in small nomadic bands. Of course, if they can wait for an Arlathvhen, they can use those mage children to "trade" with other clans (as in Merrill's case). But what if they can't wait? Nomadic life is harsh as it is. Or what if they don't want to wait? Zathrian's codex in DA:O, World of Thedas and The Masked Empire suggest that relations among Dalish clans are not always good, that they are growing apart and that some have become isolated even for other Dalish.

 

Merrill? As it was said, traded from a clan with too many mages to another with too few (irony time: maybe it was because the Keeper's child, the Dalish Warden, wasn't born a mage), so the concept of "surplus of mages" is not unknown to the Dalish. Lanaya? Ok, she competed, but where are the other candidates? Was Elora the only one? (I'm not saying they were killed, but they might have had to go to other clans because Zathrian couldn't teach more students).

[LOLandStuff]

Guess Elora's competitors have been kicked out. Why else would they compete?

[Dean_the_Young]

Fascinating stuff. It apparently contradicts what we know of Merrill's past (she was born in a clan with too many mage children, but she was given to the Sabrae, not killed), and the story about Lanaya competing to be the First against other candidates.

 

However, the important word is "apparently". A limited number of available teachers (Keepers) would make teaching more and more mages a difficult task, dangerous when they have to live in small nomadic bands. Of course, if they can wait for an Arlathvhen, they can use those mage children to "trade" with other clans (as in Merrill's case). But what if they can't wait? Nomadic life is harsh as it is. Or what if they don't want to wait? Zathrian's codex in DA:O, World of Thedas and The Masked Empire suggest that relations among Dalish clans are not always good, that they are growing apart and that some have become isolated even for other Dalish.

 

Merrill? As it was said, traded from a clan with too many mages to another with too few (irony time: maybe it was because the Keeper's child, the Dalish Warden, wasn't born a mage), so the concept of "surplus of mages" is not unknown to the Dalish. Lanaya? Ok, she competed, but where are the other candidates? Was Elora the only one? (I'm not saying they were killed, but they might have had to go to other clans because Zathrian couldn't teach more students).

 

I'd lean towards the bolded, personally. There are alternatives to throwing a seven year old girl out to the wolves, and I'm certain the treatment would vary significantly from clan to clan depending on any number of factors. (Vary in both directions, not necessarily just 'better.')

 

What it does suggest, however, is that even the Dalish have limits on the risks they're willing to take with their mages- possibly an informal 'how likely are we able to take down an abomination' standard of some sort.

 

The great Dalish mage utopia, however, seems to have gotten an arrow in the knee.

[Ryzaki]

The great Dalish mage utopia, however, seems to have gotten an arrow in the knee.

 

I liked this for this alone.

 

XD

[Danchild]

Nomadic cultures primarily exist in marginal areas that can't support large populations.  Unlike settled populations which can afford to focus on economic considerations, nomadic cultures tend to prioritise social considerations in order to maintain cultural identity, with economic considerations coming second.

 

Dalish Mages become leaders of their clan.  The margins of Thedas can only support a limited number of roving Dalish clans.  Too many potential leaders can become an issue.  In a settled society the impact of this can be seen in a succession war, when various claimants go to war and thousands are killed, all in the name of some man or woman getting a comfortable seat and a fancy hat.  In a nomadic society, the infighting caused by succession can tear a small group apart.

 

For a better comparison of how Elven and Human cultures treat mages, it would probably serve all of the amatuer fantasy anthropologists here to focus on how settled Elven cultures compare to settled Human cultures in Thedas, or how nomadic Elven cultures compare to nomadic Human cultures.  That would better illustrate the differences between Elf and Human, I think.

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

Thats not why the Dalish either banish or out right kill mages when they have too many. Magic is dangerous and the Dalish are just as afraid of demons as the chantry. But instead of sending those unwanted mages to a circle or somewhere safe, they instead choose to just kill them or let them wander till they die.

[themageguy]

Did they ever release what the dalish tatts signify? Like which tatt goes to which creator?

[LOLandStuff]

It just makes you feel sorry for those poor children to have to die alone in the woods because they were born a mage.

 

And I'm sure it's a matter of pride the Dalish do that instead of sending them to a circle.

 

They'll forget their ways what with them surrounded by humans and no true elf.

 

What a sick bunch.

[Danchild]

What is more humane: A Dwarf prince murdering dozens of his siblings and cousins to ease his transition to the throne? A Dalish Keeper banishing excess children with magical talent in to the wilderness, where they probably, but not aways, die? Both are cultural excersises practiced in order to prevent infighting over leadership. One is practiced by a 'civilised' settled culture. The other is practiced by a 'barbaric' nomadic culture.

[themageguy]

Mind you banishing children to the woods seems very dangerous. I mean if said child contacts a malevolent spirit....an abomination could rise.

[LOLandStuff]

The difference being that the dwarf is subtle about it. He's not going like "Yeah, I'm killing my relatives. Objections?" They get assassinated. I don't agree with it but yoi can't really compare the two.

 

For the Dalish everyone agrees to kick them out. And they have the option of sending them to the Circle, but nope.

[Lulupab]

How about we don't jump to conclusions? Only a day ago you said Gaspard was the only option for elves and you already celebrated but clearly that wasn't the case. Lets just see if its a thing in all Dalish clans, or is it even true to begin with.

[Enesia]

I did some lore breaking things with my elf.

 

My elf <---name is my username, Enesia.

 

Was in DAO, and I never got to carry on his legacy in DA2 with the only human as a playable race. 

 

Well Enesia is back, in DAO he was a young circle mage turned grey warden. In DAI Enesia is older in his life span, considering elves do have long lives and considering magic and the ability of magic and age effecting spells. Enesia is alive. And he is now the Herald, not by choice. He already tried to get away with the whole Grey Warden thing and didn't much like that either. 

 

He made a new life for himself, Faked his own death with the Arch Demon, etc.

 

Then this Herald business is happening and Enesia is being mistaken for a Daelish elf, and he's like wtf.

 

My crude, pragmatic, Elf who says it like it is is back and I am just having fun with his dickish behaviro. 

[Br3admax]

First, Vivienne was speaking of Dalish in general. Second, we said Gaspard had to be supported for elves to receive any lasting help, so far I've seen nothing to the contrary. All three working together is still Gaspard being supported. 

[Lulupab]

First, Vivienne was speaking of Dalish in general. Second, we said Gaspard had to be supported for elves to receive any lasting help, so far I've seen nothing to the contrary. All three working together is still Gaspard being supported. 

 

You perhaps. Some people clearly said only Gaspard can support the elves and Celene wont, its just two pages back.

[Angry_Elcor]

Anyone ever thought how funny it was that when Pinocio is lying his nose is not growing but he is having an erection instead? It would've been so funny!

 

 

I'm sure there must be some porn about it somewhere on the internet.

 

 

If you kids dont behave im turning this thread arround.

 

Dammit, why am I only discovering this thread now!?

[Dean_the_Young]

Thats not why the Dalish either banish or out right kill mages when they have too many. Magic is dangerous and the Dalish are just as afraid of demons as the chantry. But instead of sending those unwanted mages to a circle or somewhere safe, they instead choose to just kill them or let them wander till they die.

 

I would disagree on two grounds. First, Dalish perspective on spirits appears to have a significantly different perspective than the Chantry's good/evil dogmatic distinction between demons (bad) and spirits (good). Secondly, the Dalish community has a different sort of balance of fears- the Dalish fear of humans and outsiders is much greater than their fear of magics, which in Andrastian thedas frequently reaches flash mob levels.

 

In Dalish communities, mages are unwanted if they are considered excess, and various measures (from trading to exile) exist to reach the normal balance of mundanes-to-mages. In White Andrastian Thedas, mages are simply unwanted and face total population segregation.

[Enesia]

Remade my elf. He's kind of androgynous and flamboyant at the same. He has some garish amount of pink, orange, and yellow eyeshadow. But I mixed it with his tattoo, so that's the reason. 

 

This one is named Carrion, going to give him a backstory in a moment. If Bioware doesn't fill in my backstory for me.

[Danchild]

The difference being that the dwarf is subtle about it. He's not going like "Yeah, I'm killing my relatives. Objections?" They get assassinated. I don't agree with it but yoi can't really compare the two.

 

I think the comparison is an apt one.  Orzammar can only have one King.  Orlais can only have one Emperor.  The Qunari can only have one Arishok. A Chasind tribe can only have one Chieftain.  A Dalish Clan can only have one Keeper.

 

Upset that balance and large numbers of ordinary people die until equilibrium is restored or the society fragments.

 

The Dalish don't have the abundance of resources to allow them to field a lyrium-addicted army of jaliers to exterminate non-compliant mages.  They don't have the resources to imprison them in pretty little towers or perform magical lobotomies either.  Each clan has just enough resources to support one Keeper and a couple of apprentices, that's it.

 

Making a comparison between a group of primitive nomads and a sophisticated multi-national organisation (The Chantry and it's Templars) is not exactly fair.  If you want to make a fair comparison, then I think you should compare the treatment of mages in say, Ferelden, Antiva or Orlais, with the treatment of mages in the Elf city of Arthalan, at it's height.  At least that would be a comparison of settled, civilised cultures.

[Mistic]

But instead of sending those unwanted mages to a circle or somewhere safe, they instead choose to just kill them or let them wander till they die.

 

If they don't make the effort to bring their surplus of mage children to another clan, why would they bring them to a Circle? A Circle is not the easier option; it means entering human lands and dealing with Templars ("hey, if you leave your mage child here because you have too many, that means you have more apostates in your clan, right? Maybe we should ask you more questions...").

 

How about we don't jump to conclusions? Only a day ago you said Gaspard was the only option for elves and you already celebrated but clearly that wasn't the case. Lets just see if its a thing in all Dalish clans, or is it even true to begin with.

 

We do know that it's not true for all Dalish clans. Merrill would be dead if that were the case. However, wcholcombe's spoiler says that it happens in other clans (by a character who suffered that fate). That trade of mage children exists in some clans doesn't mean that leaving others to die is impossible in other clans.

 

First, Vivienne was speaking of Dalish in general. Second, we said Gaspard had to be supported for elves to receive any lasting help, so far I've seen nothing to the contrary. All three working together is still Gaspard being supported. 

 

I must have missed something. What did Vivienne say about the Dalish? Was it in a Dalish-Inquisitor-only conversation or in a conversation with Inquisitors in general? (Damn, tomorrow can't come soon enough, I need the game!)

[Ryzaki]

If they don't make the effort to bring their surplus of mage children to another clan, why would they bring them to a Circle? A Circle is not the easier option; it means entering human lands and dealing with Templars ("hey, if you leave your mage child here because you have too many, that means you have more apostates in your clan, right? Maybe we should ask you more questions...").

 

I'm pretty sure they do bring their surplus mages to other clans the dalish elf can bring this up as a counterpoint. It's only when those clans already have enough mages that the killing bit comes into play.

 

I'm fairly certain most templars (the Kirkwall templars were known for being particularly zealous so they might but obviously I'm considering the dalish use some sense and bring them to non particularly hard line against all apostate cities) aren't going to be bothered chasing down a clan of dalish mages that are non hostile if all they do is bring one kid to the circle right before they move on anyway.

 

But if the worry about the templar is that strong? Dump the kid in the city and tell them to go to the chantry. The priests will send the kid to the circle.

 

Obviously this should all be done right before they leave the area to minimize the chances of the kid wandering back.

[Selene Moonsong]

Playing Elf Rogue (favorite race and class). Spent two hours just tweaking her appearance until I got something I really like. Will continue with her after work, maybe squeeze in some time during lunch, tho

[Mistic]

I'm pretty sure they do bring their surplus mages to other clans the dalish elf can bring this up as a counterpoint. It's only when those clans already have enough mages that the killing bit comes into play.

 

No, no, I realize that. That's why I mentioned Merrill's case earlier.

 

I'm fairly certain most templars (the Kirkwall templars were known for being particularly zealous so they might but obviously I'm considering the dalish use some sense and bring them to non particularly hard line against all apostate cities) aren't going to be bothered chasing down a clan of dalish mages that are non hostile if all they do is bring one kid to the circle right before they move on anyway.

 

But if the worry about the templar is that strong? Dump the kid in the city and tell them to go to the chantry. The priests will send the kid to the circle.

 

Obviously this should all be done right before they leave the area to minimize the chances of the kid wandering back.

 

That would be the best course of action, yes (not that Templars wouldn't be interested; didn't Lothering templars try to go after Morrigan and Flemeth, and never came back?). However, what if it's a clan like the one in TME? Completely isolationist, they don't deal with humans at all, they don't set foot on civilized areas and are said not to have close relations with other Dalish clans either. Clans with those characteristics look like the prime suspects of Grimm tales infanticide (Hansel and Gretel, anyone?).