1144 réponses à ce sujet

[Ryzaki]

If the elven protagonist says that his clan doesn't do that, in direct response to a former Dalish talking about how she was exiled as a young child and thinking all clans do that, then it would suggest that it isn't a lie. If the respective clan allows the mages to stay and tries to find the mages homes with other clans, I don't see why you insist on claiming that they must be exiled or killed. Vivienne refusing to accept information to the contrary isn't proof to support your assertion, either.

 

 

It's dialogue you can hear as soon as you've closed the first rift.

 

And where does he say that? Screenshots please. Because I don't see that anywhere.

 

Also I'm not insisting they must automatically. I said there's clearly a limit on the amount of mages and that limit probably varies according to clan in later posts. The whole damn conversation is about dalish not having templars and how they limit the risk of mages in their own ways. But you want to whine about lying and dalish support being necessary for an elven support thread.

 

But yeah after that yeah they probably do exile/kill for the most part are there exceptions? Of course. There's always exceptions. Also Vivienne doesn't refuse to accept information. The PC doesn't give her any other than mages are moved around. There is no my clan doesn't do that in that conversation. Stop lying and trying to say there was. The whole context of the conversation was minimizing the risk mages pose to the group. Whether by death, exile or shuffling them around the dalish like every other group in Thedas minimizes the risk of their mages in regards to their usefulness.

 

The first rift? Charter is nowhere near the first rift. Unless you mean the breach.

[draken-heart]

And where does he say that? Screenshots please. Because I don't see that anywhere.

I believe it is Minaeve, the Elf in charge of the "beast-study" for the Inquisition.

[Ryzaki]

I believe it is Minaeve, the Elf in charge of the "beast-study" for the Inquisition.

 

Sweet thanks I just found it.

 

Yes the PC says her clan never did that to leaving her behind in the woods.

 

We found other ways...

 

"We sent them to other clans or..."

 

 

Not sure why there's no expansion on the or but that could easily be they simply dropped them off in civilized areas instead of leaving them to die since they were a human friendly group. Still maintains them not leaving too many mages in the clan to minimize risk however which was Vivienne's point.

 

Not to mention the PC saying my clan never did that and it's well established their clan is rather liberal...so yeah not a measuring stick for most of the dalish in the least.

[LobselVith8]

Sweet thanks I just found it.

 

Yes the PC says her clan never did that to leaving her behind in the woods.

 

We found other ways...

 

"We sent them to other clans or..."

 

Not sure why there's no expansion on the or but that could easily be they simply dropped them off in civilized areas instead of leaving them to die since they were a human friendly group. Still maintains them not leaving too many mages in the clan to minimize risk however which was Vivienne's point.

 

No, that wasn't Vivienne's point, but this is becoming circular at this point. Do we at least agree about supporting Briala?

[Ryzaki]

No, that wasn't Vivienne's point, but this is becoming circular at this point. Do we at least agree about supporting Briala?

 

Yes actually it was considering that whole conversation was simply about the dalish not having templars and how survival rules over sentimentality. All groups in Thedas have some limits on mages because of the risks they pose. Some more strenuous than others. The PC's clan being rather liberal in how they deal with that doesn't change it. (especially since chances are they don't keep those mages with their clan. They just don't leave them to die like animals).

 

Considering the amount my respect dropped for you Lob no not really.

[LobselVith8]

Yes actually it was considering that whole conversation was simply about the dalish not having templars and how survival rules over sentimentality. All groups in Thedas have some limits on mages because of the risks they pose. Some more strenuous than others. The PC's clan being rather liberal in how they deal with that doesn't change it. (especially since chances are they don't keep those mages with their clan. They just don't leave them to die like animals).

 

I'd factor the the Chantry, the templars, and Andrastian society as significant factors, since this wouldn't be an issue if the Dalish had their own kingdom, rather than living as nomads on a continent that's been hostile towards magic for nearly a millennia.

 

Considering the amount my respect dropped for you Lob no not really.

 

If you thought participating in the same hostility that's made a plethora of elven fans, particularly Dalish fans, feel unwelcome in the public forums as something I should have respected, you were simply wrong.

[Ryzaki]

I'd factor the the Chantry, the templars, and Andrastian society as significant factors, since this wouldn't be an issue if the Dalish had their own kingdom, rather than living as nomads on a continent that's been hostile towards magic for nearly a millennia.

 

 

If you thought participating in the same hostility that's made a plethora of elven fans, particularly Dalish fans, feel unwelcome in the public forums as something I should have respected, you were simply wrong.

 

is all I have to say to the bolded.

 

Maybe the issue is you guys getting so offended on a fictional races behalf because believe it or not me mocking the dalish is not some attack on your character or way of life unless you've magically become a dalish somehow. That said make a dalish support thread by all means. No one's stopping you. Just don't try to claim this is one. Because it's not.

 

Also I didn't get hostile to you til you called me a liar Lob. You brought any hostility from me on yourself. But yes I will point out the dalish flaws and enjoy it because their fans are absurdly defensive of a fictional race.

 

People rag on the geth all day and I either debated with them or ignored it. Weird concept instead of whining and playing the victim. (Then again that is behavior typical of the dalish so I shouldn't be surprised).

[EmperorSahlertz]

Dalish support threads do have a habit of getting locked. Both because of haters, and because the open hostility of the Dalish supporters against ANY with a differing opinion than their own.

[Br3admax]

People rag on the geth all day and I either debated with them or ignored it. Weird concept instead of whining and playing the victim. (Then again that is behavior typical of the dalish so I shouldn't be surprised).

Oh ****. 

[Ryzaki]

Also ugh started a male elf...the only armor he looks really good in so far is the mercenary coat...can I get a schematic of that soonish? I'm only in haven but bleh.

[Steelcan]

When Gaspard called Briala "rabbit" is that a slur against elves in general or that particularly annoying one specifically?

[Arleth]

The whole "rabbit" thing is a reference to the masked empire book I believe. There was some noble backing a study that said since elves and rabbits both had ears that were similar then elves are by their nature prey. Thus it was okay for orlesians to continue to be racist against them because elves were a lesser race that was meant to be subjugated. Since Gaspard calls her that I'm thinking he was the one to back the study as an attack against Celene.

[Shadow Fox]

It's an elf support thread Lob. I support the elves. You can whine about me not supporting the dalish to the cows come home. As this is an elven support thread and not a dalish one it doesn't matter. Dalish are not the only elves so I suggest you either make a dalish support thread or get over it because no I'm not going to go "ooh Lob's so right! How dare I comment on the dalish elves!" remark and I'm not sure what you think whining at me is going to accomplish but rapidly growing hostility.

 

Again. No he does not say the mage doesn't do that to Vivienne. I just SS that conversation. He says they send them to other clans. He does not say they are not exiled/killed. It's not even implied. Now if you have links to another version of that conversation I'd love to see it. For one calling me a liar you're certainly clinging to this one tightly.

 

Now I'm not sure about Charter (I think that was her name) because I never had that conversation so again if you could give me some screenshots or even a transcript that'd be swell. Or hell maybe I'll see if I can find her myself.

 

Which you know I already said the clans probably vary and it's something probably left to each clan's discretion as to the exact line. It does however symbolize that there's a point where the dalish will exile/kill the extra mages.

I have:

 

she says

 

"My clan never did that we sent them to different clans...oh."

 

[Lulupab]

That seems to be a major theme in many fantasy settings / games / etc.
 
WoW - it was the arrogance of Elves that caused all/most of their problems (they attracted / brought the attention of Burning Crusade, etc)
LotR - Elves helped craft the Rings of Power, Elves let human king walk off with The One Ring (should have stabbed him and tossed the corpse & ring into the lava), etc
 
So here's a key - anytime you see Elves in a world/story/setting... they will be the root cause of any/all/most bad stuff happening

A perfect race would turn the game into medieval romance tale. A tragic flaw is necessary.

Although your LotR tragic flaw is not a "flaw", that's on humans. LotR elves were as perfect as their enemy so the two forces countered each other. They fought with an enemy whom Sauron was his maid. They had to be perfect, each elven solider trained for a thousand years before engaging in war with the said enemy. Even if middle earth is razed to the ground the elves are forever safe on distant shores of Valinor.

[Mistic]

Sweet thanks I just found it.

 

Yes the PC says her clan never did that to leaving her behind in the woods.

 

We found other ways...

 

"We sent them to other clans or..."

 

Not sure why there's no expansion on the or but that could easily be they simply dropped them off in civilized areas instead of leaving them to die since they were a human friendly group. Still maintains them not leaving too many mages in the clan to minimize risk however which was Vivienne's point.

 

Well, the lack of expansion on the "or" is most likely the product of the protagonists' inability to provide arguments for their opinions, a sad yet typical trait of many Bioware games. So yes, there's an answer to Vivienne's question "and if there are no clans in need of a new apprentice?". However, I agree that wasn't her point at all (Solas argues much better than her, but given his secret I'm not surprised).

 

As for other discoveries...

 

I actually like the idea of Vallaslin being slave markings. I don't see a problem with that. I mean, I live in a world where an instrument of killing and torture is the symbol of one of the most extended religions and displayed proudly in many national flags. The real problem is the Dalish misconceptions about it and its origins. If once known they still choose to honour their gods that way, that would be them turning something bad in something good. But it's very clear now that they should stop blindly following the "because Arlathan elves did so" line of thought.

[BioWareMod02]

Keep it on topic guys

♥

[Steelcan]

A perfect race would turn the game into medieval romance tale. A tragic flaw is necessary.

Although your LotR tragic flaw is not a "flaw", that's on humans. LotR elves were as perfect as their enemy so the two forces countered each other. They fought with an enemy whom Sauron was his maid. They had to be perfect, each elven solider trained for a thousand years before engaging in war with the said enemy. Even if middle earth is razed to the ground the elves are forever safe on distant shores of Valinor.

someone hasn't read the Silmarillion

 

the kin-slaying of the elves, their pride, tendency towards stagnation and stasis, war with the dwarves, and their separation from the issues of the world.  The elves aren't perfect.  The "ideal" race in Tolkien are the Numenoreans not the Noldor and certainly not the silvan or Lorien elves

[Lulupab]

someone hasn't read the Silmarillion

the kin-slaying of the elves, their pride, tendency towards stagnation and stasis, war with the dwarves, and their separation from the issues of the world. The elves aren't perfect. The "ideal" race in Tolkien are the Numenoreans not the Noldor and certainly not the silvan or Lorien elves

Elves had many clans which you didn't name, the Vanyar are the perfect and ideal race. Completely incorruptible, fairest and noblest of all elves. Second of all I read the Silmarilion, you forget to mention most Elves who reside in middle earth were exiled such as Noldor, so basically you just compared worst of the elves to best of men. The Elves fought their war, they have defeated the greatest enemy of all time, Morgoth. That was their responsibility and they took care of it. Rest of the issues of the word is not their concern to begin with because after that the majority of the elves started (re)sailing to Valinor, their own world. You know the one the Numenoreans tried to invade in vain. They might be quite ideal compared to men but they had no less greed or vanity.

Also I didn't say elves are perfect, I said they are as perfect as their enemy and they indeed are, they were the only race remotely capable of fighting Morgoth. Their tragic flaws are still there however as I mentioned in my earlier post in which I simply claimed just because Elrond didn't stab Isildur is not fault of Elves. Gil-galad and Elendil had the strongest alliance ever forged between men and elves, what do you think would have happened if Elrond did that.

[Steelcan]

You were the one who used the label "elves" !ithno attention to different varieties. You did not differentiate between any varieties instead saying "elves are as perfect as their enemy" which is just not true.

And the elves did not defeat Morgoth,intervention from the Valar and the sinking of Bwordland did, furthermore he wasn't entirely defeated either.

And Elrond was at Dagorlad and Mount Doom so he clearly was on with allying with man, his brother being the first Numenorian aside, so aim not sure what you are getting at

[Lulupab]

You were the one who used the label "elves" !ithno attention to different varieties. You did not differentiate between any varieties instead saying "elves are as perfect as their enemy" which is just not true.
And the elves did not defeat Morgoth,intervention from the Valar and the sinking of Bwordland did, furthermore he wasn't entirely defeated either.
And Elrond was at Dagorlad and Mount Doom so he clearly was on with allying with man, his brother being the first Numenorian aside, so aim not sure what you are getting at

The factions who defeated Sauron were best of each race on middle-earth. Gid-Galad of Elven realm and Elendil, heirs of Numenor.

How many years elves fought Morgoth though? His defeat was possible because of that, using the sole reasons of intervention of Valar and Bwordland is simply not true. The irony here perhaps is the fact that Numenorians (later Elendil) were not only very close with Elves but also looked and acted liked them too. And their leaders were half-elf in bloodlines.

[Dave of Canada]

The entire

Spoiler

Temple of Mythal

scene was one gigantic dream come true for me, it showed to me that the Dalish have little to no redeeming qualities and I'm not regretting wiping out both the clans from DAO and DA2. I'm rather fond of the fact that both elven companions in the game and many of the elves you encounter rub in the fact that Dalish are douchebags, was a bit too worried they'd whitewash them after the portrayal in Masked Empire.

 

Spoiler

So for those of you who've supported Briala, how does it play out in the epilogue? Was interested in doing a run where I let Celene die and have Gaspard be a puppet.

[Lord Surinen]

Considering it is a 'support' thread I see no reason for people who wish to insult elves to come here.

 

For me elven lore turns out to be better and better. With a proper writing continuation they can turn into glorious, divine like beings(again) and extinguish lesser races in the bid for an ultimate power.

 

"Go-go Elves" I guess

[Br3admax]

Considering this is an "Elf Support Thread," not a "Dalish Support Thread," I'm not sure why you posted that. 

[Lord Surinen]

Considering this is an "Elf Support Thread," not a "Dalish Support Thread," I'm not sure why you posted that. 

Phew! Good to know, because I have not mentioned specific group of elves. That being said, I have not heard about band of elves called just 'elves'(ah, sorry, the ancient elves were called this way and they were levels above Dalish ruthlessness). Following your reasoning, is this thread about an unknown branch of elves(or ancient elves)?

 

It is a support thread, shaming them is the very nature of derailing it. Please, refrain from snarky comments in the future.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

I hope the revelation we got can be spread to the other Dalish Elves. They need to no longer worship whatever the Elven Pantheon actually are. They sound more like Old Gods than actual deities and supported terrible things.