It was absolute torture in Origins; could not wait to unnecessarily sacrifice her with blood magic.
To be perfectly honest, the sacrifice would seem necessary to most wardens (unless you plan on killing Connor). Going to the circle shouldn't even have been an option because it's stupid. I don't buy the demon not killing everyone while you travel back and forth.
And to keep this post on topic, elves rule, humans drool woo!
Shemlen isn't the original word for 'human'- it was originally the word for 'quick children,' which was later used synonymously with 'human' as a slur.
When one assigns a name to something for which you had no name previously, it is in fact its name in your language.
In order-
I don't expect them to.
Yes.
Human racism is irrelevant to Dalish addressing Dalish xenophobia.
'Underdogs' have no special exceptions to being judged on the basis of xenophobic attitudes.
It doesn't, even if we ignore that the humans don't even see themselves as being in a race conflict and thus have no olive branch to give.
It really, really, isn't, unless rationality means ignoring how well it has worked out for them.
The Dalish believe their culture is Arlathan in nature. It's not merely an idealized past- it is the diminished present, with each relic and ritual they practice restoring it, and it is the desired future (which is little more than a hazy blur of that the Humans will somehow disappear and leave the elves to reclaim everything).
The fact that contemporary Dalish culture has almost nothing to do with Arlathan is a verdict of the outsider perspective which doesn't dip into the coolaid or whatever it is the Dalish drink. The Dalish cultural narrative is that Arlathan culture is reclaimable, with the Dalish being the guardians and maintainers of 'true' elven culture. City elves have 'forgotten,' contrasted to the Dalish who remember, recover, restore, and revere the old ways.
The invalidation comes from the reality that you describe- that the Dalish project of elven cultural restoration is fatally flawed because the Arlathan context (cultural, political, identity) is irrevocably lost and the Dalish practices which they claim as the True (Original) Elven Culture are really nothing more than often mis-informed reenactments.
The humans see themselves as allready having won the race conflict. Exalted march, remember. Something about alianges too. So ambigious. So maybe the olive branch from humans could be, i don't know, sudden shift in attitudes concerning city elves? Be less racist douches? You know, something to show that the underlying conflict between the species is lessening? And no, it's still not the duty of an underdog to capitulate. Ever.And you still havent told why exactly the Dalish need to change? When your neighbour is a violent bully, you are right to be wary of him.
And then there is the culture bit. I allready told you that the Arlathan the Dalish talk about is not the same as the Arlathan that actually existed. Symbol, remember. Something to give purpose. Something to give strenght during, say the long march from Tevinter to the Dales? They try to reconstruct what they can but are first to admit that there is a shedload they simply don't know.As it stands, what the Dalish have is the closest approximation of the original culture even if it is off simply by virtue of being the only ones trying.The project to restore Arlathan culture has never been a realistic one but it has given them purpose and given birth to a valid culture based on the few shards of the old one they have.
When one assigns a name to something for which you had no name previously, it is in fact its name in your language.
The humans see themselves as allready having won the race conflict. Exalted march, remember. Something about alianges too. So ambigious. So maybe the olive branch from humans could be, i don't know, sudden shift in attitudes concerning city elves? Be less racist douches? You know, something to show that the underlying conflict between the species is lessening? And no, it's still not the duty of an underdog to capitulate. Ever.And you still havent told why exactly the Dalish need to change? When your neighbour is a violent bully, you are right to be wary of him.
The name already existed in their language, shemlen had a meaning before the elves encountered humans, it was then applied to them as a slur, it reeks of condescension and self superiority.
The humans don't need to send an olive branch, they won. The losers of the conflict are the ones who have to change opinions about themselves. The winners don't need to change a gorram thing. The Dalish are also violent bullies, so continuing the use of slurs and their violent xenophobia only hurts themselves in the end.
When one assigns a name to something for which you had no name previously, it is in fact its name in your language.
And if you use a term which already had a meaning, you associate a new identity with an established connotation.
Le gasp! It's like you aren't arguing against what I'm saying at all!
There is no reason that the elves had to or the Dalish have to name something using pre-existing words with connotations. They could create a new word- we do that quite often with scientific concepts and discoveries. They could choose to words that don't function as a pejorative- hatred and contempt are harder to convey with tone alone, it's true, but at least tone has to be adopted.
The humans see themselves as allready having won the race conflict. Exalted march, remember.
I remember a border war turned religious war that the Elves started and then loss. Remember?
Something about alianges too. So ambigious. So maybe the olive branch from humans could be, i don't know, sudden shift in attitudes concerning city elves? Be less racist douches? You know, something to show that the underlying conflict between the species is lessening?
The underlying conflict between the species is lessening. The rest, human and elven, have moved on to other forms of identity groups, with increasing mutual-identification and assimilation. Elves can serve in militaries and even as Templars, with all the implications that an internatinoally sanctioned and respected military force implies. Respected members of prominent national and international institutions are open to institutional reforms in favor of the elven minority, including reversing and rolling back archaic prohbitions that exist primarily by inertia. City elves do not exist as the despised minority to be blamed for everything that goes wrong.
Most promisingly, only a minority of one side even identifies by race-identity, and they don't even participate in the politics of the countries they live in. So much so that policies towards the city elves wouldn't even affect Dalish relations.
And no, it's still not the duty of an underdog to capitulate. Ever.
Sure it is. The only underdogs alive today are the ones who haven't fought to the death. Underdogs need to be the most flexible, adaptive, and willing to reform themselves in order to survive and prosper. No one, underdog or not, has ever won all their battles without compromise. In so much that anyone has a 'duty' to not destroy their own group, capitulation to reality and internal changes are frequently the moral obligation. Even the Dalish radically reformatted their entire culture after the fall of the Dales.
Pointless antagonism has no point, and historic animosities are merely historic. Propagating hopeless conflicts from long ago simply because you lost and are now the underdog is silly. The fact that Dalish clans keep bitter history of a thousand years ago closer than possible relations in the here and now
And you still havent told why exactly the Dalish need to change?
The don't 'need' to change, any more than they 'need' to survive. The Dalish could die out most of Thedas would either not notice, or even be better off.
The Dalish should change because they aren't building a future for themselves and only maintaining a manufactured past in the present to the detriment of both themselves and everyone around them. They aren't helping themselves by staying bitter, they aren't helping the city elves by clinging to a fabricated mythic past, and they aren't helping humans by caring more about history no one was even alive for.
When your neighbour is a violent bully, you are right to be wary of him.
Certainly- especially when you yourself are also a violent bully, but significantly weaker. Following that recognition, the next step of being wary of your neighbors is to accept that you are, in fact, neighbors.
And then there is the culture bit. I allready told you that the Arlathan the Dalish talk about is not the same as the Arlathan that actually existed. Symbol, remember. Something to give purpose. Something to give strenght during, say the long march from Tevinter to the Dales? They try to reconstruct what they can but are first to admit that there is a shedload they simply don't know.As it stands, what the Dalish have is the closest approximation of the original culture even if it is off simply by virtue of being the only ones trying.The project to restore Arlathan culture has never been a realistic one but it has given them purpose and given birth to a valid culture based on the few shards of the old one they have.
Purpose in the direction of the impossible is squandered. A waste on efforts that could actually benefit them going into the future. Instead of a purpose in reclaiming a past devoid of humans, they could work towards a future with humans.
The idea that the Dalish have the closest approximation of the original culture is merely buying into the Dalish reclamation myth. Tevinter has as many, if not more, claims to being closer to what the ancient elves were and how they lived than the nomads who call themselves their descendents. Tevinter at least is an urbanized mageocracy which took Arlathanian knowledge and symbols and made them their own, affected by it even as they tried to paint over it. The Dalish are nomadic tribals who paint themselves as slaves and parrot words here and there.
Hopefully there is a group of elves who gathered enough of ancient artifacts to summon an army of elves from times of the Elvhenan. Strengthen chosen ones, purge the unworthy. Oblivion is better than degrading coexistence with lesser species. I'm eager to see mage-templar war to turn into elf-human+. Serfs rising against their lords, slaves bringing down the masters. Long king roads-deep roads filled with marching processions of shackled humans, heading straight into new-old Arlathan. I can imagine waterfalls of the city running red with the long days of blood rituals that will change the face of Thedas forever. The last shemlen would die in the zoos, his or her final breathe would be a ticket seller with elven nobility fighting for the lodges. 'This is how mankind died'.
The new revelations about the ancient elves and the elven gods makes me think one the next installments (whether that is DLC, a novel or the next game) will somehow be closely tied to Arlathan. Or maybe that's just wishful thinking.
And there is also this, official Arlathan art:
And if you use a term which already had a meaning, you associate a new identity with an established connotation.
Le gasp! It's like you aren't arguing against what I'm saying at all!
There is no reason that the elves had to or the Dalish have to name something using pre-existing words with connotations. They could create a new word- we do that quite often with scientific concepts and discoveries. They could choose to words that don't function as a pejorative- hatred and contempt are harder to convey with tone alone, it's true, but at least tone has to be adopted.
I remember a border war turned religious war that the Elves started and then loss. Remember?
The underlying conflict between the species is lessening. The rest, human and elven, have moved on to other forms of identity groups, with increasing mutual-identification and assimilation. Elves can serve in militaries and even as Templars, with all the implications that an internatinoally sanctioned and respected military force implies. Respected members of prominent national and international institutions are open to institutional reforms in favor of the elven minority, including reversing and rolling back archaic prohbitions that exist primarily by inertia. City elves do not exist as the despised minority to be blamed for everything that goes wrong.
Most promisingly, only a minority of one side even identifies by race-identity, and they don't even participate in the politics of the countries they live in. So much so that policies towards the city elves wouldn't even affect Dalish relations.
Sure it is. The only underdogs alive today are the ones who haven't fought to the death. Underdogs need to be the most flexible, adaptive, and willing to reform themselves in order to survive and prosper. No one, underdog or not, has ever won all their battles without compromise. In so much that anyone has a 'duty' to not destroy their own group, capitulation to reality and internal changes are frequently the moral obligation. Even the Dalish radically reformatted their entire culture after the fall of the Dales.
Pointless antagonism has no point, and historic animosities are merely historic. Propagating hopeless conflicts from long ago simply because you lost and are now the underdog is silly. The fact that Dalish clans keep bitter history of a thousand years ago closer than possible relations in the here and now
The don't 'need' to change, any more than they 'need' to survive. The Dalish could die out most of Thedas would either not notice, or even be better off.
The Dalish should change because they aren't building a future for themselves and only maintaining a manufactured past in the present to the detriment of both themselves and everyone around them. They aren't helping themselves by staying bitter, they aren't helping the city elves by clinging to a fabricated mythic past, and they aren't helping humans by caring more about history no one was even alive for.
Certainly- especially when you yourself are also a violent bully, but significantly weaker. Following that recognition, the next step of being wary of your neighbors is to accept that you are, in fact, neighbors.
Purpose in the direction of the impossible is squandered. A waste on efforts that could actually benefit them going into the future. Instead of a purpose in reclaiming a past devoid of humans, they could work towards a future with humans.
The idea that the Dalish have the closest approximation of the original culture is merely buying into the Dalish reclamation myth. Tevinter has as many, if not more, claims to being closer to what the ancient elves were and how they lived than the nomads who call themselves their descendents and paint themselves as their slaves.
I am arguing that the existing word is completely sufficent. Hurt feelings dont enter in to it. 'Quickened children' means humans and 'The people' means elves, simple as that. Conjuring up standards of behaviour that are apprently higher to the elves than everyone else do not change these very simple things.
And the war? I distinctly remember an accidental border skirmish and then the human chantry denouncing the 'evil' elves, virtually destroying the culture and enslaving the elves in all but name. Sometimes outright, as was the case in Ferelden during the Orlesian occupytation. Funny how memory works, but you will forgive me if i trust mine more than yours. And how exactly denouncing an entire race as 'evil' and stripping them of all worth as sentient beings not amount to a race war? And as far i can see the racial tensions have been increasing, not lessening. Orlesians now publish treatises describing elves as 'prey animals', alianges riot due to mistreatment and are put to the torch in Ferelden and Orlais and any attempt to better their lot ends in the humans rioting (see the result of the city elf boon). So where are these signs of lessening tensions? The city elves are exactly where they have allways been: Under heel to be used as a convenient 'outsider' when the powers that be need it to misdirect the public from their own misdeeds.
Underdogs who surrender will never get out from under heel. Run or die fighting but never surrender. On this we will never have even remotely civil discussion so lets leave it at that.
The Dalish do change. They adapt to their surroundings as evidenced by the vast diffrences between the clans. They just don't give up the heart of what it is to be Dalish. Honestly, the Dalish are doing just fine just endlessly wandering and avoiding human contact where they can. Its certainly a better life than what the city elves get, if a hard one. And in the end, they are happy with that life. And would be even happier if left alone but that ain't going to happen.
The quest of the Dalish...Most great works are hopeless. But squandered? If you set your sights on what you know you can achieve then that is all you will have. The dream is shooting for the moon and if that lands them as far as the clouds, has the effort been squandered?
Hopefully there is a group of elves who gathered enough of ancient artifacts to summon an army of elves from times of the Elvhenan. Strengthen chosen ones, purge the unworthy. Oblivion is better than degrading coexistence with lesser species. I'm eager to see mage-templar war to turn into elf-human+. Serfs rising against their lords, slaves bringing down the masters. Long king roads-deep roads filled with marching processions of shackled humans, heading straight into new-old Arlathan. I can imagine waterfalls of the city running red with the long days of blood rituals that will change the face of Thedas forever. The last shemlen would die in the zoos, his or her final breathe would be a ticket seller with elven nobility fighting for the lodges. 'This is how mankind died'.
And it might just come to that.
And it might just come to that.
Indeed. The mage vs. templar war showed that angry and desperate people will do angry and desperate things when backed in to a corner. I just hope it won't actually come to that.
City elves are an ethnic, not religious, minority. If the Chantry had some religious opposition to interest like Islam, then most city elves would share that belief as much as most humans underthe Chantry.
It's both, I think. Part of the City Elves don't seem to follow entirely the Chantry. Else they wouldn't have a vhenadahl, tree of the people, in the middle of their alienages. Some alienages end up forgetting why they have one in the first place and remember far less than the Dalish, though.
I'm entirely in favor of reconciliation between Dalish and Andrastians, and Inquisition gives me more hope that it's possible. All I ask is that the Dalish be allowed to maintain their cultural, religious, and magical traditions without interference.
I'm entirely in favor of reconciliation between Dalish and Andrastians, and Inquisition gives me more hope that it's possible. All I ask is that the Dalish be allowed to maintain their cultural, religious, and magical traditions without interference.
*snip*
Not sure of your intention, but anyhow....Yeah, not very realistic. But one can dream, right? 
No, that's just the Mythal temple, nothing else.And there is also this, official Arlathan art:
And it might just come to that.
Indeed. The mage vs. templar war showed that angry and desperate people will do angry and desperate things when backed in to a corner. I just hope it won't actually come to that.
With help of the fate and willing quill all is possible. I hope for it. Glorious ending for the series.
No, that's just the Mythal temple, nothing else.
Oh ok, thank you for correcting me.
Not sure of your intention, but anyhow....Yeah, not very realistic. But one can dream, right?
I used that gif in particular to say "maybe one day it'll be like that", and I think it's gonna be a long long time.
And on that note, I need to go listen to "Rocket Man".
Most likely without the blights, the Dalish will be reduced to the lifestyle of gypsies, or People of the Hills and the Mountains or Nomads of the Cold Steppe and the Desert. Places where state and agriculture have difficulty to reach.
I'm entirely in favor of reconciliation between Dalish and Andrastians, and Inquisition gives me more hope that it's possible. All I ask is that the Dalish be allowed to maintain their cultural, religious, and magical traditions without interference.
Most likely without the blights, the Dalish will be reduced to the lifestyle of gypsies, or People of the Hills and the Mountains or Nomads of the Cold Steppe and the Desert. Places where state and agriculture have difficulty to reach.
And honestly, none of those are bad lives to have (so long as we are talking about the tradition of traveling gypsies and not what they have become) after being forcibly settled. Its kinda sad). Its not some glorious empire but its an independent life and they are free to be Dalish.
Does anyone know where I can find the Dalish banner?
Buried deep beneath a deep mound of self righteousness and bigotry?
You know, attitude of survivors like Dalish usually mirrors the attitude of their enemies. Because their current attitude is necessary against said enemies, or it simply beats the alternative. (city elves)
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