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Elf Support Thread


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#926
Addai

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I don't gloat. Don't see the point of it, really.

People tried to make arguments that weren't supported. People were wrong. Story of my life.

Rectification will occur. People who try to cling to old arguments in the face of new evidence will be mocked. Those who eat crow and adapt accordingly will not be belittled.

Your petty forum resentments are ridiculous and have no point, besides cutting off the possibility of any sort of productive conversation. But now I repeat myself.

Human religion may not be validated, but it most certainly hasn't been invalidated. Unlike the Dalish.

Where is Dalish religion invalidated?
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#927
Master Warder Z_

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I don't mean Grey Wardens. The Arcane Warrior tells you that elves and humans were fighting together against a greater evil.

 

That probably was some pre veil abomination.

 

Anyway it doesn't much matter, events before recorded history are just that.

 

Before recorded history.



#928
Br3admax

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Where is Dalish religion invalidated?

Temple of Mythal onwards, really. I guess that's not as bad as their entire history also being invalidated. BioWare really didn't pull any punches with this one. 



#929
Addai

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Temple of Mythal onwards, really. I guess that's not as bad as their entire history also being invalidated. BioWare really didn't pull any punches with this one.

Doesn't the Temple of Mythal validate it? Their gods are real. If you think the fact that they got some things wrong is an invalidation, the same will certainly be the case with Andrastianism.
 

That probably was some pre veil abomination.

Anyway it doesn't much matter, events before recorded history are just that.

Before recorded history.

So?
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#930
Master Warder Z_

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Temple of Mythal onwards, really. I guess that's not as bad as their entire history also being invalidated. BioWare really didn't pull any punches with this one. 

 

Its about like Dorian said.

 

"No one wants to admit they **** the bed."



#931
Master Warder Z_

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So?

 

So.

 

The details of whatever happened are most certainly lost, there will never be a story behind that.

 

Its pretty pointless to even mention it.



#932
Br3admax

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Doesn't the Temple of Mythal validate it? Their gods are real. If you think the fact that they got some things wrong is an invalidation, the same will certainly be the case with Andrastianism.

Do a bunch of Roman records validate my religion? No. Neither does a bunch of elves validating Mythal existed prove her religion practiced by the Dalish is valid. However, them flat out saying the Dalish are wrong does invalidate it. 



#933
Steelcan

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All we know from the temple is that Mythal existed as an entity, there's no way of telling if she was really a god, or just an abomination or some other sort of powerful being

#934
Addai

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Do a bunch of Roman records validate my religion? No. Neither does a bunch of elves validating Mythal existed prove her religion practiced by the Dalish is valid. However, them flat out saying the Dalish are wrong does invalidate it.

Okaay. We obviously have different definitions for the term. "You got it mostly right" isn't mine.
 

All we know from the temple is that Mythal existed as an entity, there's no way of telling if she was really a god, or just an abomination or some other sort of powerful being

Are you really expecting any Thedasian god to be The Big Kahuna, creator of all that is? Because that's probably not going to happen. The Maker, whatever he is, is kind of a putz, for instance.

I think you should really pay attention to what's being said about the metaphysics in this game. Demons and spirits are two sides of the same coin, and gods are not always what they appear either.

So.

The details of whatever happened are most certainly lost, there will never be a story behind that.

Its pretty pointless to even mention it.

The point is that we already knew the history between elves and humans was complicated and not black and white.
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#935
Vit246

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Closing your ports to foreign traders and travel? Doesn't hurt anyone. 

 

The Dalish are not the only trade partners or the ones with travel routes. But when you put it that way.....
 

Creating a powerful military order that shoots to kill peaceful trespassers in the name of insularity? Scary. 

 

Gonna need more details on this one.

 

 Refusing to assist foreigners in a time of crisis when you had the clear ability to intervene? 

 

The Dalish were hardly under obligations to aid ORLAIS of all countries and its still not clear if the Dalish really could've intervened. Although if I were the Dalish, I would've fought the darkspawn anyway so nobody can claim the Dalish didn't do their part and so the Dalish can never let the humans forget their debt to the heathen "knife-ears".
 

Sacking neighboring settlement because one of your soldiers had the gall to convert and try to leave, leading to an unprovoked invasion and conquest of major cities?

 

Well you got me there.



#936
Br3admax

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Okaay. We obviously have different definitions for the term. "You got it mostly right" isn't mine.

in·val·i·date
inˈvaləˌdāt/
verb
 
1.
make (an argument, statement, or theory) unsound or erroneous.

 

 

Using that definition. 



#937
Steelcan

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Exactly, Mythal wasn't actually a god, probably just a powerful spirit. Therefore the Dalish Pantheon is invalid, therefore their religion is invalid

#938
raging_monkey

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Its about like Dorian said. "No one wants to admit they **** the bed."

you listening to a vint thats scary...

#939
Addai

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Exactly, Mythal wasn't actually a god, probably just a powerful spirit. Therefore the Dalish Pantheon is invalid, therefore their religion is invalid

What is a god if not a powerful spirit?

#940
Hellion Rex

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Exactly, Mythal wasn't actually a god, probably just a powerful spirit. Therefore the Dalish Pantheon is invalid, therefore their religion is invalid

I agree. But still, in this universe, how do you differentiate a very, very powerful spirit and a god?



#941
Dean_the_Young

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But if you think the writing is a matter of black and white, you're probably going to find yourself disappointed again because Bioware tends to subvert that as a rule.

 

Have we been playing the same Bioware games? Bioware loves ham-fisted black and white morality elements. It's nuance and even-handedness that they struggle with.

 

In this case, the war of the Dales though... the question about who is to blame for starting it is pretty black and white. The Dalish have never denied the events of Red Crossing, and now we have the Dales' own historical record to damn them. Red Crossing was an unprovoked act of aggression by the Dales. It was not a response to the theorized Templar incursion or invasion that the forumites invented, it was not a ******-for-tat escalation for ongoing border tensions, it was not a miscommunication or accident, there was no agent provacateur who tricked the Dales into attacking to give Orlais a justification for invasion and conquest.

 

Red Crossing was the unforced choice of an official Dales military force under recognized Dales leaders who chose to respond to a Dalish elf's free and uncoerced choice to leave the Dales culture and pursue an interracial relation ship and exercise religious freedom by an attempted kidnapping and subsequent massacre. Following this action the Dales proceeded in a major military campaign against Orlais that conquered cities and threatened seize the capital of the nation which.

 

The only element of all of that which is anywhere close to legitimate and justified would be the Dalish attempting to prevent the elf from leaving. Not on the grounds of culture or religion or interracial relations, which they were completely in the wrong for trying to stop, but because of a concern of the leaking of military secrets... if that was the concern at all. The codex is vague on what sort of secrets they were concerned about. But military secrecy only justifies preventing the elf from leaving- it does not pardon a cross-border kidnapping attempt, it does not excuse the casualties of a massacre, and it certainly doesn't require or imply any need for a full-scale invasion.

 

The Dales were in the wrong, and the moral and ethical blame for starting the war rests completely on them. Not only did they actually start it, but they chose to take actions that started it, and they started it for bad reasons.

 

 

Now, none of that matters what-so-ever to the culpability or responsibility for how the war ended. Dalish policies towards the end of the war is currently vague, and far more responsibility (and blame) for the consequences of how it ended can rest fairly on Orlais.

 

But as far as who is to blame for the War of the Dales? Who is responsible for starting the second most devastating catastroph in elven history? That's black and white now.


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#942
Hanako Ikezawa

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The Dalish were hardly under obligations to aid ORLAIS of all countries and its still not clear if the Dalish really could've intervened. Although if I were the Dalish, I would've fought the darkspawn anyway so nobody can claim the Dalish didn't do their part and so the Dalish can never let the humans forget their debt to the heathen "knife-ears".

All nations are under obligation to help each other against the Blight. It is a force of nature that if not stopped can end all life on Thedas. No matter how much the nations may hate each other, they put it aside to combat the greater threat. 



#943
Addai

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And the war of the Dales is not the sum of all elven-human history. <-- the point
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#944
Steelcan

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I agree. But still, in this universe, how do you differentiate a very, very powerful spirit and a god?

easy, what's the difference between the Maker and a spirit. One begat the other and is capable of creation. Demons and spirits can't conjure up entire worlds

#945
Addai

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easy, what's the difference between the Maker and a spirit. One begat the other and is capable of creation. Demons and spirits can't conjure up entire worlds

So you do think there's a creator god in Thedas and he's Andrastian. I'd be prepared for disappointment.
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#946
raging_monkey

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And the war of the Dales is not the sum of all elven-human history. <-- the point

but it is they most well known account. People see that as uniform

#947
Steelcan

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So you do think there's a creator god in Thedas and he's Andrastian. I'd be prepared for disappointment.

I was just using him as an example of what a god would be compared to a spirit, and BioWare has said they won't confirm or deny his existence

#948
Hellion Rex

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So you do think there's a creator god in Thedas and he's Andrastian. I'd be prepared for disappointment.

Why should he be? At this moment in time, his interpretation has just as much merit and value as any other.

#949
Br3admax

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And the war of the Dales is not the sum of all elven-human history. <-- the point

Nope. It's the sum of Orlais being attacked by the Dales, and Orlais answering in kind. Not all of humanity. Just Orlais. They lost a war they started. The end. 



#950
Dean_the_Young

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It's mentioned on one of the Emerald Graves. Years and years of buildup, and then one of their own lets the enemy in. But lets blame the elves, because someone besides humans had to be at fault. 

 

This argument makes no sense. Aside from the chronological mess that are the Dalish Emerald Grave stones (none of which directly reference Red Crossing or the Exalted March itself), the Red Crossing incident wasn't even a case of 'letting the enemy in.' The Dales elf was trying to leave the Dales. The side 'letting the enemy in' would have been Orlais and the Chantry.

 

We should blame the elves not because someone besides humans has to be at fault, but because the Emerald Knights themselves admit to having attacked Red Crossing.

 


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