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The Harrowing time limit?


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#26
Silfren

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Mouse even mentions about it in the game.

 

More to the point, Mouse's mention is where the lore hint comes from.  Unless I'm mistaken there is no other reference to a time limit at all.  So it as was said, it's not necessarily indicative of anything--demons are known for stretching and twisting the truth, after all.


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#27
Silfren

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Lothering's destruction should also count as a time limit of sorts in my opinion.

But it doesn't, though.  You could quite literally jump all around the map over and over and over again, and Lothering doesn't count as destroyed until you've actually completed one of the four main quest points.  You could explore and exhaust all non-main questlines without affecting Lothering at all, and you can even do the DLC quests to completion and Lothering won't be affected, so far as I can recall.

 

In terms of lore, it's counted as a passage of time, but I don't think you can call it a time limit in any true sense, given that it is entirely at your discretion how and in what order you do the rest of the game before Lothering is obliterated.  


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#28
Krypplingz

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I'd assume story-wise there is a limit, since I doubt Gregoir and Irving would stand over you for more than three days and after a week the other templars would be needed elsewhere/your body would be dead from lack of nourishment. They can't really leave you standing there alone, so you'd probably be judged a lost cause and executed. 

At the same time, the Fade is a master of messing with your mind and that would probably also apply to your sense of time. So even if you felt like you stood there for days staring at the sky, it could only have been a minute in the real world. Likewise, if you felt like you rushed through it in a matter of minutes, it might have taken an days in the real world. 

 

Gameplay-wise, time doesn't really translate well in a slow moving game like Dragon Age. Rushing the player would detract from the enjoyment, since a lot of the enjoyment comes from taking your time, reading codex entries and chatting with the inhabitants. 

As for commenters on your speediness, you have Mouse, Cullen and your new room neighbor who heard you completed the Harrowing in a record time. 


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#29
luna1124

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I have played a male mage.. I think the banter part about Cullen saying quick/clean harrowing is the same, but not the mage saying 'well, he would say that, wouldn't he" is different for males.


  • theskymoves aime ceci

#30
Krypplingz

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I have a transcript of the chat  for both genders male/female in my possession. Lets call the ladies L and D.

L: Did you hear anything? Is he/she all right? Is he/she awake?

D: Why do you care? Are you best friends now?

L: I'm just curious! That templar, Cullen, said it was the quickest, cleanest Harrowing he'd ever seen!

L: He must be so talented. / He says she's very talented and very brave.

D: Someone sounds jealous. / Well, he would, wouldn't he?

L: I just know I'll be terrified when my time comes. Like Wendell was. He threw up every day for the next week just thinking about it...

 

Bonus points:

Wendell: You look well. That's wonderful. I was throwing up for a full week after my Harrowing. It's the lyrium that does that, I think. 


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#31
theskymoves

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I have played a male mage.. I think the banter part about Cullen saying quick/clean harrowing is the same, but not the mage saying 'well, he would say that, wouldn't he" is different for males.

 

As usual, Luna has it right. :D

 

For f!Amell/Surana, the exchange is

 

Apprentice 2: That templar, Cullen, said it was the quickest, cleanest Harrowing he'd ever seen! He says she's very talented and very brave.

Apprentice 1: Well, he would, wouldn't he?

 

The localisation/direction comment on the second line is Dryly. A little sarcastic. She's unimpressed that the person she's talking about (Cullen) thinks that the person he has a crush on is very talented and brave.

 

And for m!Amell/Surana, the dialogue is

 

Apprentice 2: That templar, Cullen, said it was the quickest, cleanest Harrowing he'd ever seen! He must be so talented.

Apprentice 1: Someone sounds jealous.

 

Dammit. Ninja'd whilst italicising.


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#32
Merle McClure II

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Ah, thanks for the clarifaction.  Question, what does Cullen have to say on the 2nd Floor of the Tower if you are male ... I know that as a female you can completely fluster the poor man to the point that he runs off.


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#33
Krypplingz

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Cullen just has a normal, relaxed chat with a male mage. His voice is slightly louder and no awkward stutter. 

 

The conversation basically goes: 

Spoiler


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#34
luna1124

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I followed Cullen once when he ran off.. he went to the basement :D


  • Krypplingz aime ceci

#35
Merle McClure II

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I always figured that he'd run to his room.


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#36
Silfren

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I'd assume story-wise there is a limit, since I doubt Gregoir and Irving would stand over you for more than three days and after a week the other templars would be needed elsewhere/your body would be dead from lack of nourishment. They can't really leave you standing there alone, so you'd probably be judged a lost cause and executed. 

At the same time, the Fade is a master of messing with your mind and that would probably also apply to your sense of time. So even if you felt like you stood there for days staring at the sky, it could only have been a minute in the real world. Likewise, if you felt like you rushed through it in a matter of minutes, it might have taken an days in the real world. 

 

Gameplay-wise, time doesn't really translate well in a slow moving game like Dragon Age. Rushing the player would detract from the enjoyment, since a lot of the enjoyment comes from taking your time, reading codex entries and chatting with the inhabitants. 

As for commenters on your speediness, you have Mouse, Cullen and your new room neighbor who heard you completed the Harrowing in a record time. 

 

This is mostly speculation, but I always gathered from Niall that there's a point beyond which having your spirit in the Fade is lethally draining on your body, somehow.  A few minutes, maybe a few hours is fine, perhaps even a day or so...but after a point the mortal body just can't withstand the strain. He tells the Warden, "for you it will have been a quick nap," or something along those lines, while for him he'd been in the Fade so long that his body had wasted away.  There's no word given as to how long Niall's soul was in the Fade, but there's definitely an indication that your body can only handle it for so long.  It goes without saying that after a few weeks or months, of course the body will have suffered the effects of dehydration and such, but I came away with the impression that there was more going on than simply that, and I don't think we're meant to believe that Niall was in the Fade for weeks or more of real-world time.  

 

So yes, I would imagine that quite irrespective of whether the templars think that you've lost the battle, there probably is a point where they presume you're dead or as-good-as.  


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#37
Krypplingz

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This is mostly speculation, but I always gathered from Niall that there's a point beyond which having your spirit in the Fade is lethally draining on your body, somehow.  A few minutes, maybe a few hours is fine, perhaps even a day or so...but after a point the mortal body just can't withstand the strain. He tells the Warden, "for you it will have been a quick nap," or something along those lines, while for him he'd been in the Fade so long that his body had wasted away.  There's no word given as to how long Niall's soul was in the Fade, but there's definitely an indication that your body can only handle it for so long.  It goes without saying that after a few weeks or months, of course the body will have suffered the effects of dehydration and such, but I came away with the impression that there was more going on than simply that, and I don't think we're meant to believe that Niall was in the Fade for weeks or more of real-world time.  

 

So yes, I would imagine that quite irrespective of whether the templars think that you've lost the battle, there probably is a point where they presume you're dead or as-good-as.  

 

Niall also says that: "Every day you were here, the Sloth demon was feeding off me, using my life to fuel the nightmares of his realm." So in his case, his body was wasting away because Slothy was eating him. But there is probably some extra strain involved as well. 

BUT. During the Harrowing the apprentice is standing in front of a bowl filled with Lyrium, even touching some of it with his/her bare hands. (The glowy stuff on the wardens hand in the first cut scene). And it's known that unprocessed Lyrium is highly toxic. Which probably means that Wendell's Harrowing (The guy who vomited for a week) was one of the longer Harrowings. So in addition to the body's normal usage of energy, the apprentice body is also fighting off Lyrium poisoning while the mind fights off demons. 

Jowan mentions that the warden was carried into the dormitory in the morning and it seems that you missed breakfast at least. So the warden probably needed a few hours to recover, and that was one of the quicker Harrowings. 

 

So, the apprentices are probably just given around 12 hours to complete the Harrowing. Then they are mercy killed, because if they got out of the Fade after that, they would just slowly die from the Lyrium poisoning.

(And I apologize for the bad grammar. But I'm possessed by a demon of Sloth and cannot gather the willpower to fix it.)


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#38
Riverdaleswhiteflash

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I don't think the lyrium poisoning will have anything to do with why long Harrowings are a bad thing. I'm under the impression that you need a fixed amount to get there, and that staying longer doesn't mean you need more lyrium. If that guy threw up after his Harrowing, and it wasn't due to being a nervous wreck after fighting demons, then he should just stay away from lyrium. I agree with you that being in the Fade for too long would probably kill even if you weren't being eaten by a sloth demon, but only for the same reason that being in a coma without an IV or a feeding tube would kill. (Namely, that you're sleeping instead of eating and drinking.)


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#39
Silfren

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Niall also says that: "Every day you were here, the Sloth demon was feeding off me, using my life to fuel the nightmares of his realm." So in his case, his body was wasting away because Slothy was eating him. But there is probably some extra strain involved as well. 

BUT. During the Harrowing the apprentice is standing in front of a bowl filled with Lyrium, even touching some of it with his/her bare hands. (The glowy stuff on the wardens hand in the first cut scene). And it's known that unprocessed Lyrium is highly toxic. Which probably means that Wendell's Harrowing (The guy who vomited for a week) was one of the longer Harrowings. So in addition to the body's normal usage of energy, the apprentice body is also fighting off Lyrium poisoning while the mind fights off demons. 

Jowan mentions that the warden was carried into the dormitory in the morning and it seems that you missed breakfast at least. So the warden probably needed a few hours to recover, and that was one of the quicker Harrowings. 

 

So, the apprentices are probably just given around 12 hours to complete the Harrowing. Then they are mercy killed, because if they got out of the Fade after that, they would just slowly die from the Lyrium poisoning.

(And I apologize for the bad grammar. But I'm possessed by a demon of Sloth and cannot gather the willpower to fix it.)

 

Right, I remember that.  But I thought it was also the case that the Sloth Demon was feeding off the Warden and co. as well, just not for as long.  I actually thought that was one of his reasons for taking them in the first place.


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#40
Silfren

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Niall also says that: "Every day you were here, the Sloth demon was feeding off me, using my life to fuel the nightmares of his realm." So in his case, his body was wasting away because Slothy was eating him. But there is probably some extra strain involved as well. 

BUT. During the Harrowing the apprentice is standing in front of a bowl filled with Lyrium, even touching some of it with his/her bare hands. (The glowy stuff on the wardens hand in the first cut scene). And it's known that unprocessed Lyrium is highly toxic. Which probably means that Wendell's Harrowing (The guy who vomited for a week) was one of the longer Harrowings. So in addition to the body's normal usage of energy, the apprentice body is also fighting off Lyrium poisoning while the mind fights off demons. 

Jowan mentions that the warden was carried into the dormitory in the morning and it seems that you missed breakfast at least. So the warden probably needed a few hours to recover, and that was one of the quicker Harrowings. 

 

So, the apprentices are probably just given around 12 hours to complete the Harrowing. Then they are mercy killed, because if they got out of the Fade after that, they would just slowly die from the Lyrium poisoning.

(And I apologize for the bad grammar. But I'm possessed by a demon of Sloth and cannot gather the willpower to fix it.)

Good points, also, about lyrium, although I don't think that the lyrium in the Harrowing is actually unprocessed.  The fact that it IS so highly toxic, to the point that putting your bare hands on it is a bad idea, led me to assume that it was processed/diluted in some way.  Pure, raw lyrium is a solid, is it not?  My impression of what we see in that bowl was of a liquid form--I figured it was the same form of lyrium as the kind that templars and mages actually ingest.


  • luna1124 aime ceci

#41
Merle McClure II

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Oh, also back to the original topic, I found a random conversation with a Mage where they too mention that they heard you completed the Harrowing in record time, so it's further evidence that my theory about Cullen being an unreliable witness was wrong.

 

 

As for the Lyrium involved in the Harrowing Ritual itself, yeah it'd have to be processed or the survival rate of Harrowing would be 0% according to the Lyrium Codex.