23 réponses à ce sujet

[chapomon]

I was messing around with Dragon Age Keep and for the most part I like it. I have to ask though, why are there no outcome options for Velanna and Sigrun for DA: Awakening? Is it going to be assumed that the Warden recruited Velanna and Sigrun, had them become Grey Wardens, and completed their personal quests/gave them personal items? I also noticed that Nathaniel is optional as a character but has no option for his personal quest and Oghren isn't an optional Grey Warden recruit but has options for his personal quest.

 

Is all this intentional retconning? I had one of my Wardens decline on Oghren joining the Wardens, sent Anders back to the Circle, killed Nethaniel and Velanna, let Sigrun go back to the Deep Roads without suggesting she join the Wardens, and left Justice wondering the Blackmarsh...yeah, that Warden was the only character in the party. Anders and Justice never meeting was already retcon from that playthrough so just wondering to expect more retconning.

 

On a side note, what about Jowan's fate? I know Jowan's quest if he's allowed to be free is bugged and only fixable for the PC version. Or any of the Boon outcomes which has some of them being tied to the Warden's origins? 

[crowskin]

It's not retconning. Plot tile priorities (presumably)  have been for major plot decisions and what will import to DAI. If you want other things to show up, you'll need to request them via the beta feedback button. But I'm guessing Velanna and the rest will be in a later build since they are popular options to add.

 

Well, I guess there is some retconning for Anders. No matter what, he will always become a grey warden who gets possessed by Justice, but that's been understood since DA2.

 

Re: Jowan's fate - again, you need to ask for this.

 

Boons are not going to be added. This has been addressed by the devs during twitch streams.

[Senjougahara Hitagi]

I think there is some retconing for Nathaniel too, no matter what you do, if he is alive at the end, he will always meet his sister.  

 

And the biggest issue here is Oghren, I mean if you are going to include a choice, you should include all the possibilities. Not recruiting him is one of them, they don't even have to add a new tile, just a 4th option for the existing one.

[Ranadiel Marius]

I think there is some retconing for Nathaniel too, no matter what you do, if he is alive at the end, he will always meet his sister.  

 

And the biggest issue here is Oghren, I mean if you are going to include a choice, you should include all the possibilities. Not recruiting him is one of them, they don't even have to add a new tile, just a 4th option for the existing one.

I think 'The Warden Did Not Help Them' tile covers not recruiting him just fine. 

[chapomon]

It's not retconning. Plot tile priorities (presumably)  have been for major plot decisions and what will import to DAI. If you want other things to show up, you'll need to request them via the beta feedback button. But I'm guessing Velanna and the rest will be in a later build since they are popular options to add.

 

Well, I guess there is some retconning for Anders. No matter what, he will always become a grey warden who gets possessed by Justice, but that's been understood since DA2.

 

Re: Jowan's fate - again, you need to ask for this.

 

Boons are not going to be added. This has been addressed by the devs during twitch streams.

 

The beta feedback button doesn't work for me. If it comes down to not making fancy graphics for the Tapestry interface, I don't see why they don't make simple check the box option for all possible choices like similar to the Mass Effect Gibbed editors. I know that all quest and options aren't going to have an impact on anything beyond the quest giver and all parties involved but limiting a lot of past choices feels like it trivializes most of player character's accomplishments and content of past games similar to the Mass Effect interactive comics. This wouldn't be a bad thing if it incentives players to buy and play past games to be able to make full choices and get a great story telling experience but seeing as there isn't a way to transfer those save files from PS3/360 to a fourth Dragon Age game which will most likely be only on PS4/One (PC excluded) it seems like a full choice editor is a must.

 

Oghren was also retconned for that particular Warden since he killed every companion possible...only for Oghren to end up at Vigil's Keep.

[crowskin]

The beta feedback button doesn't work for me. 

 

Turn off adblock or any script-blocking add-ons that your browser is running.

[chapomon]

Turn off adblock or any script-blocking add-ons that your browser is running.

 

Thanks! Adblock was the cause.

[Natureguy85]

Oghren was also retconned for that particular Warden since he killed every companion possible...only for Oghren to end up at Vigil's Keep.

 

How did you kill Oghren?

 

Anyway, there are probably no outcome options for Velanna and Sigrun because they aren't planned to be used. If the devs want them back, tiles might show up. Remember though that in most outcomes, they are both either dead or gone in the deep roads.

[Ranadiel Marius]

The beta feedback button doesn't work for me. If it comes down to not making fancy graphics for the Tapestry interface, I don't see why they don't make simple check the box option for all possible choices like similar to the Mass Effect Gibbed editors. I know that all quest and options aren't going to have an impact on anything beyond the quest giver and all parties involved but limiting a lot of past choices feels like it trivializes most of player character's accomplishments and content of past games similar to the Mass Effect interactive comics. This wouldn't be a bad thing if it incentives players to buy and play past games to be able to make full choices and get a great story telling experience but seeing as there isn't a way to transfer those save files from PS3/360 to a fourth Dragon Age game which will most likely be only on PS4/One (PC excluded) it seems like a full choice editor is a must.

 

Oghren was also retconned for that particular Warden since he killed every companion possible...only for Oghren to end up at Vigil's Keep.

They've stated, in one of the twitch streams, that they didn't use a check box interface (or some equivalent) because when they tried to do something like that it became nearly impossible to use due to how interconnected the plots were.

 

Gibbed has every single plot because it is editing the save file directly. If you look at the Gibbed save generator for importing from DAO to DA2 it does not have all the plots from DAO and instead only has the plot flags from DAO that DA2 looks for. Actually on the topic of DA2 import, as I recall the status of Velanna and Sigrun was not imported into DA2. So yeah, their fate had been set to unimportant years before the Keep was released. Who knows if some dev in the future will someday decide to do something with either one.

[Natureguy85]

They've stated, in one of the twitch streams, that they didn't use a check box interface (or some equivalent) because when they tried to do something like that it became nearly impossible to use due to how interconnected the plots were.

 

Gibbed has every single plot because it is editing the save file directly. If you look at the Gibbed save generator for importing from DAO to DA2 it does not have all the plots from DAO and instead only has the plot flags from DAO that DA2 looks for. Actually on the topic of DA2 import, as I recall the status of Velanna and Sigrun was not imported into DA2. So yeah, their fate had been set to unimportant years before the Keep was released. Who knows if some dev in the future will someday decide to do something with either one.

 

Also that would be boring. I love all the art that went into the Keep.

[Fardreamer]

Awaking was already heavily retconned... Oghren showing up in the beginning was the first one.  Then in DA2 your choices about Anders and Justice didn't matter at all. 

[Natureguy85]

Awaking was already heavily retconned... Oghren showing up in the beginning was the first one.  Then in DA2 your choices about Anders and Justice didn't matter at all. 

 

Can Oghren die? If not, it's not really a retcon for him to show up. They would just need to alter dialogue based on if he joined the Warden or not. I didn't realize originally that you could not recruit Oghren in Origins.

[chapomon]

You can kill Oghren by having him dislike the Warden all the way then go to the camp. Oghren will confront the Warden where you get the choice to talking down, fight him or let him leave. To kill him, fight him, Oghren will submit to the Warden but you'll get the option to keep fighting him and you'll end up killing Oghren in the second fight.

 

It's sad to hear that Velanna and Sigrun weren't important enough to transfer data over and yet if I recall about things DA2 checks, what the Warden does with Cailan's body because that's more improtant. I didn't realize that when data transfers over, it doesn't transfer everything; I thought it checked for certian things but stored everything else for later reference.

 

It's not that I object to the Tapestry, I love the art and the layout; I just think a check box interface would have been a good complement to the Tapestry in order to fine tune a history of minor choices that didn't need to be presented on the Tapestry. Of course, seeing that BioWare is keeping up the other tradition of giving the players choices and later making them unimportant, I guess it wouldn't make a difference anymore.

[chapomon]

Can Oghren die? If not, it's not really a retcon for him to show up. They would just need to alter dialogue based on if he joined the Warden or not. I didn't realize originally that you could not recruit Oghren in Origins.

 

The explanation is terrible. Oghren at Vigil's Keep will state he doesn't remember anything other than waking up by himself with no clothes on (presumably because the Warden looted his corpes) and thought he just had another drunken night. Then realizes the Warden tried to kill him and laughs it off that they didn't. It's as worse than Leliana's explanation (and the implication of divine intervention with her death actaully makes sense with her and the lore) as we don't get any real explanation other than the Warden somehow didn't kill Oghren all the way and he got better.

[chapomon]

They've stated, in one of the twitch streams, that they didn't use a check box interface (or some equivalent) because when they tried to do something like that it became nearly impossible to use due to how interconnected the plots were.

 

I would have to disagree with the devs there as Dragon Age Keep is essentially a check box interface with pictures that can point out conflicts of outcomes if two or more choices couldn't possibly happen when something is changed.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprise that previous choices such as what happens to characters aren't important enough to import between games...its not like BioWare has a history of this or anything.

[Natureguy85]

You can kill Oghren by having him dislike the Warden all the way then go to the camp. Oghren will confront the Warden where you get the choice to talking down, fight him or let him leave. To kill him, fight him, Oghren will submit to the Warden but you'll get the option to keep fighting him and you'll end up killing Oghren in the second fight.

 

It's sad to hear that Velanna and Sigrun weren't important enough to transfer data over and yet if I recall about things DA2 checks, what the Warden does with Cailan's body because that's more improtant. I didn't realize that when data transfers over, it doesn't transfer everything; I thought it checked for certian things but stored everything else for later reference.

 

It's not that I object to the Tapestry, I love the art and the layout; I just think a check box interface would have been a good complement to the Tapestry in order to fine tune a history of minor choices that didn't need to be presented on the Tapestry. Of course, seeing that BioWare is keeping up the other tradition of giving the players choices and later making them unimportant, I guess it wouldn't make a difference anymore.

 

Interesting about Oghren. I didn't do that. I see what you're saying about him "recovering" and I'd agree.

 

What does DA:2 do with the fate of Cailan's body? Is it anything more than a comment or codex entry? That hardly matters. Return to Ostagar isn't in the Keep at all so apparently it wasn't important enough to include either.

 

You can't seriously want them to track every minor choice you made. Remember how minor things "mattered" in Mass Effect just to have a character pop up for a small bit of dialogue or for a certain news report to play as you walked around the hub worlds.

[chapomon]

You can't seriously want them to track every minor choice you made. Remember how minor things "mattered" in Mass Effect just to have a character pop up for a small bit of dialogue or for a certain news report to play as you walked around the hub worlds.

 

Of course I wouldn't expect them to make every tiny quest matter but at the same time, what about all those big characters such as Velanna and Sigrun who could have strong agenda's especially if the Architect is still alive? What if Jowan, that walking disaster with magic was roaming around? What about the seemingly unimportant quest that hint to the Friends of Red Jenny? What consequence would not killing the dragon cultist and their dragon god and allowing them to thrive next to the resting place of the Sacred Ashes have?

 

All these unanswered questions that seem like they'd have more importance that some of the things that are in Dragon Age Keep such as feeding the prisoner at Ostagar, Alfstanna getting her brother's ring back, giving the begger woman her amulet back, telling Ghyslain about his wife, blackmailing Ser Thrask (who always dies), etc. All of those minor details are important but the fates of all the main character's (potental) friends, companions are not? See where I'm going with this inconsistency about what and who is and isn't important?

[Natureguy85]

Of course I wouldn't expect them to make every tiny quest matter but at the same time, what about all those big characters such as Velanna and Sigrun who could have strong agenda's especially if the Architect is still alive? What if Jowan, that walking disaster with magic was roaming around? What about the seemingly unimportant quest that hint to the Friends of Red Jenny? What consequence would not killing the dragon cultist and their dragon god and allowing them to thrive next to the resting place of the Sacred Ashes have?

 

All these unanswered questions that seem like they'd have more importance that some of the things that are in Dragon Age Keep such as feeding the prisoner at Ostagar, Alfstanna getting her brother's ring back, giving the begger woman her amulet back, telling Ghyslain about his wife, blackmailing Ser Thrask (who always dies), etc. All of those minor details are important but the fates of all the main character's (potental) friends, companions are not? See where I'm going with this inconsistency about what and who is and isn't important?

 

Velanna and Sigrun didn't have strong agendas. Velanna just wanted her sister, who is already a ghoul, back and Sigrun wanted to die fighting Darkspawn. I agree that Jowan would be interesting to see again. The fate of the Dragon Cult might be tied to the tile about corrupting the urn or not. Was it possible to not corrupt the urn and not kill them? The presence of seemingly unimportant tiles does not mean other unimportant events need be included. More stuff will be added later.

[Tenz83]

Velanna had more unresolved stuff though.. Especially if you killed the Architect, because her sister never showed up in that fight and Sigrun just fights darkspawn til the end of her days really regardless if she stays or goes back to the deep roads

[Natureguy85]

Velanna had more unresolved stuff though.. Especially if you killed the Architect, because her sister never showed up in that fight and Sigrun just fights darkspawn til the end of her days really regardless if she stays or goes back to the deep roads

 

That unresolved stuff was just her sister.

[Fardreamer]

Velanna and Sigrun didn't have strong agendas. Velanna just wanted her sister, who is already a ghoul, back and Sigrun wanted to die fighting Darkspawn.

 

They had just as strong agenda as any other character.  What was Oghren's agenda? He doesn't even have one after you find Branka.  Sten?  None.  Shale? None.  Wynne? None.

[Natureguy85]

They had just as strong agenda as any other character.  What was Oghren's agenda? He doesn't even have one after you find Branka.  Sten?  None.  Shale? None.  Wynne? None.

 

The inclusion of one character without a strong agenda is not an argument for the inclusion of another. Personally I want things I had an actual effect on. I like that Oghren is in there because you can steer him toward or away from Felsi. This is why I actually would like seeing Velanna; not because of what her fate was but because you can get her past her hatred of humans and encourage her to be more concerned with the Dalish future than the past. Or not do those things

Then again, you could have killed her.

[chapomon]

This is why I actually would like seeing Velanna; not because of what her fate was but because you can get her past her hatred of humans and encourage her to be more concerned with the Dalish future than the past. Or not do those things

Then again, you could have killed her.

 

My point exactly.

[Natureguy85]

My point exactly.

Well that may be a good argument for Velanna to come back, but if she isn't coming back, then there isn't much reason for her to be in the Keep other than just saying things you did like a logbook.