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A thought on human nature.


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#76
Fast Jimmy

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It's unfortunate that most of it is entirely discredited because it was unethical. It teaches us a lot about people in power.

Of course, it was bad science since Zimbardo inserted himself into the experiment as the "prison warden" ruining his objectivity, but it shouldn't be discounted. I actually attended one of his talks where he talked about Milgram's study (also unfairly discredited due to being called unethical), his study, as well as his new project that's supposed to (hopefully) stop the bystander effect.


It's difficult to study unethical behavior without creating a scenario where people are given the opportunity to be unethical. I did think Milgram's study was fascinating (and ultimately hurt no individuals directly), showing just how far people will go when simply told to do something.

To get more on the less "darker" side of such experiments, I remember a study I encountered in my Social Psychology class (unable to find a link searching Google), where students were on the way to class and stopped for directions.

The students were selected beforehand for the distance of their destination, which was always across campus. They were also selected for their major - those with a seminary/religious major intended for pastoral professions were picked, as well as non-seminary majors as a form of control group. The students were stopped and asked for help with directions by a seemingly confused person. The students were observed for the attention they paid to the requester, the amount of help they provided and their overall demeanor.

Regardless of major or any other factor, the prime determiner of whether someone stopped and was helpful was how late they were. If the student perceived they had time to spare, they would be helpful. If the student perceived they did not have time, they would not stop - even if it meant ignoring someone requesting help to be on time for a class where the seminary student would ostensibly be learning about how to always help others.

Which I think illustrates the point - people are much more likely to be helpful and selfless if the cost to themselves is relatively low. People are more likely to be callous and indifferent if the cost to them is high.

Of course, coupled with the above studies on authority, it takes another turn... people will do more for someone they have assigned a value to, whether that be sentiment, authority or other importance. Similarly, as can be seen in cases from bullying to genocide, when people devalue a person - either from social status, appearance, ethnic background or any other reason - they are much more likely to treat them terribly.


Moral of the story?

If you want to do good in the world, make the people you are trying to help as human as possible to those who you are seeking assistance from, make yourself seem a position of authority and worth and make it as easy as possible for others to give the support you need.

And if you want/need people to do insanely inhuman things to others, set yourself up to be an Uber authority on all things, make the targets you are going for seem inhuman by lumping them into a faceless group with stereotypes and branding and then make it seem like inaction against this group carries a high price, either in terms of the danger this group poses to the punishment to be given out by you and your authority (arguably, try to do both).

And, last but not least, people can be easily controlled wih the above examples, but one should not forget that individuals do these types of things to their own ways of thinkng on a regular basis, so individual responsibility must be maintained, lest a "just following orders" defense is allowed for the most heinous atrocities.


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#77
Kaiser Arian XVII

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Moral of the story?

If you want to do good in the world, make the people you are trying to help as human as possible to those who you are seeking assistance from, make yourself seem a position of authority and worth and make it as easy as possible for others to give the support you need.
 

 

Ain't possible in a 4 years period presidency.

 

Politics decides everything. If it's changed every 4 years or even 8 years, the social/educational policies changes so fast and the result is a messed up society. I can think that for a generation to become kind, assistant etc. it needs at least 15 years of consistent education and policy.

*in b4 the next president screws up everything with his amoral attitudes*



#78
Fast Jimmy

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Ain't possible in a 4 years period presidency.

Politics decides everything. If it's changed every 4 years or even 8 years, the social/educational policies changes so fast and the result is a messed up society. I can think that for a generation to become kind, assistant etc. it needs at least 15 years of consistent education and policy.
*in b4 the next president screws up everything with his amoral attitudes*


One doesn't need to be the president of a world power to change things. Let alone "do good."

#79
Kaiser Arian XVII

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One doesn't need to be the president of a world power to change things. Let alone "do good."

 

Structures are more influential than individual acts. Suffice to say if the structure is flawed, individual acts are in vain.

But some individuals have huge amount of power and are extremely decisive like Cyrus the great, Louis XIV or World War II dictators and presidents.



#80
Fast Jimmy

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Structures are more influential than individual acts. Suffice to say if the structure is flawed, individual acts are in vain.
But some individuals have huge amount of power and are extremely decisive like Cyrus the great, Louis XIV or World War II dictators and presidents.


I disagree. Structure is of huge importance, but if it was the sole determiner, there would never be acts done that would topple them. Overthrowing a government is the great act of good an individual (or group of individuals) can do... at least, in the revolutionaries' eyes.

It depends on the goal, as well. If you consider civil rights to be your goal, then you must acquiesce to the structure to pass such laws. If you, instead, want to create an atmosphere supportive of all demographics and backgrounds you can work through the companies and organizations you affiliate with, or start your own.

Same goes with education, economics or any number of other causes. One does not need something to be a law to make a change. Of course, we are veering wildly off topic from human nature. Human nature is to be to avoid loss and hardship - it's really as simple as that. Having any other expectations of your fellow humans means you are likely to disappoint yourself.
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#81
mybudgee

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First the construct itself must change, as it is broken beyond repair or redemption



#82
Fast Jimmy

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First the construct itself must change, as it is broken beyond repair or redemption


What? No it's not. Not anymore broken than it has been the past two decades, at least. Which, while still a trainwreck in slow motion by some accounts, doesn't mean it is broken beyond repair, especially if it continues to function.

I outright reject the idea that no good can be done today because of a governmental framework. That's patently untrue.
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#83
mybudgee

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What? No it's not. Not anymore broken than it has been the past two decades, at least. Which, while still a trainwreck in slow motion by some accounts, doesn't mean it is broken beyond repair, especially if it continues to function.

I outright reject the idea that no good can be done today because of a governmental framework. That's patently untrue.

Subjective.

How can we truly regain control as the proletariat/little guy without a revolution? Baby steps?! Please.

<_<

 

#eternalpessimist



#84
Fast Jimmy

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Subjective.
How can we truly regain control as the proletariat/little guy without a revolution? Baby steps?! Please.
<_<

#eternalpessimist


Trust me, I'm far from an optimist. But I'm a depressing realist - revolution with a country addicted to an import economy, a high degree of luxury goods and services and which contains the world's largest supply of nuclear, biological and WMD arsenals in the world is a recipe for absolute chaos, not improvement.

#85
mybudgee

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1. Chaos/Revolt

2. Suffering/Rebirth

3. Rebuilding (Simplicity)

4. ???

5. Profit

:wizard:



#86
Paulyj113

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yes. we are born evil. only by seeking christ can we hope to be anything but
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#87
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Spoiler for religious content. Be warned. I'm not continuing the conversation, merely explaining myself.
 

Spoiler

 
He places an extremely high value on free will. It's really as simple as that.
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#88
Sigma Tauri

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He places an extremely high value on free will. It's really as simple as that.

 

I'm not convinced. And I won't continue. Religious topics make any participant of discourse look stupid on the Internet.



#89
Dermain

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It's difficult to study unethical behavior without creating a scenario where people are given the opportunity to be unethical. I did think Milgram's study was fascinating (and ultimately hurt no individuals directly), showing just how far people will go when simply told to do something.

 

I have a feeling that Milgram's study was called "unethical" simply because the results were contrary to what other researchers (and even Milgram himself) predicted. The only part of the study that I legitimately think could be argued as unethical would be telling the subjects that they had no choice but to participate, but that was reasonable given that it was studying how people react to authority. You can't test that when you tell people that they can leave if they don't agree, and that's also contrary to real life situations so if you do that it can't be reliably generalized.

 

Milgram followed the participants of his study (there were 64 variants of it, and he repeated it in it's entirety once) for the rest of his life. He also recorded the debriefing section with his participants so they are informed that they never actually harmed anyone (to the relief of many of them), and he reported that about less than 1% of his participants regretted participating in the study. Overall, I wouldn't call that unethical.

 

Which I think illustrates the point - people are much more likely to be helpful and selfless if the cost to themselves is relatively low. People are more likely to be callous and indifferent if the cost to them is high.

 

Exactly. 

 

Of course, coupled with the above studies on authority, it takes another turn... people will do more for someone they have assigned a value to, whether that be sentiment, authority or other importance. Similarly, as can be seen in cases from buying to genocide, when people devalue a person - either from social status, appearance, ethnic background or any other reason - they are much more likely to treat them terribly.

 

Which is why it's always disturbing when you see two sides of an issue doing that to each other, especially if one group ends up having more power. It's also quite common in politics. Well that and general (pointless) fear mongering.



#90
Guest_EntropicAngel_*

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I'm not convinced. And I won't continue. Religious topics make any participant of discourse look stupid on the Internet.

 

It doesn't have to look stupid, seriously. I've had pages long discussions over religion right here on the BSN (or, I should say, back when this place was the BSN as opposed to the BF). And we were able to keep it clean. As long as everyone respects everyone else and keeps their head cool, it all works. But I won't push you.


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#91
Dermain

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I meant to comment on this in my previous post, but I forgot.

 

And, last but not least, people can be easily controlled wih the above examples, but one should not forget that individuals do these types of things to their own ways of thinkng on a regular basis, so individual responsibility must be maintained, lest a "just following orders" defense is allowed for the most heinous atrocities.

 

That really depends. If the authority sets in motion events that will cause the subordinates to do heinous acts, but then denies it when it comes to light who deserves to be punished?

 

Keeping in mind that the authority usually gets off while the individual subordinates get screwed.



#92
Fast Jimmy

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That really depends. If the authority sets in motion events that will cause the subordinates to do heinous acts, but then denies it when it comes to light who deserves to be punished?

 

Keeping in mind that the authority usually gets off while the individual subordinates get screwed.

 

It is still the role of the individual who must take responsibility. Just as if your company told you to do something that broke the laws of the country you lived in, breaking international law because your government told you to is not excusable. Granted, it is still crappy that the subordinate carries the bulk of the (somewhat) unfair burden, the fact that the court fails at capturing the authority that gave the order shouldn't give amnesty to the ones who actually committed the act, regardless of how much research shows people are so easily influenced. 

 

At least, IMHO.


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#93
Sigma Tauri

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It doesn't have to look stupid, seriously. I've had pages long discussions over religion right here on the BSN (or, I should say, back when this place was the BSN as opposed to the BF). And we were able to keep it clean. As long as everyone respects everyone else and keeps their head cool, it all works. But I won't push you.

 

I believe you, but I err on the side of caution when it comes to religion. Still, I appreciate the respect, at least. :)



#94
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yes. we are born evil. only by seeking christ can we hope to be anything but

176b210490cdddcac0bc186dd1b69694fa7b50b3


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#95
Seraphim24

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So basically..

 

Wait what's this thread about

 

*goes back and reads*

 

Yeah I don't understand the evil/good dichotomies that people present, almost ever. If you ask me artists for instance are oftentimes some of the most sublimely insane, psychotic, controlling, egomaniac embodiments of evil. Meanwhile, the random people like a bus driver or whatever might just be the nicest person you meet.

 

I'm not really sure there is such a thing, just imbalances of power. The reactions from those interactions is what gives rise to these ethical constructs.



#96
Gravisanimi

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Yeah I don't understand the evil/good dichotomies that people present, almost ever. If you ask me artists for instance are oftentimes some of the most sublimely insane, psychotic, controlling, egomaniac embodiments of evil. Meanwhile, the random people like a bus driver or whatever might just be the nicest person you meet.

 

I'm not really sure there is such a thing, just imbalances of power. The reactions from those interactions is what gives rise to these ethical constructs.

As someone who went to art school, I agree with the bold.


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#97
giveamanafish...

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There is also an evolutionary component in this being that by being selfish/greedy then you are increasing your chances for survival, but the reverse is also true. If a person is altruistic they increase the odds of the person that they helped helping them in return. If person X helps person Y out person Y would be indebted to Person X (even if Person X did not intend to be paid back for it). There was a type of bird (that I forget the name of) where a mated pair would sometimes let a non-related bird help them tend to their children and in turn the mated pair would help out the unrelated bird later.

 

Does that mean that Person Y will always help out Person X later? No, but since most people tend to believe in "fairness" it is still likely that it will eventually pay off to help other people. 

 

I'm far too tired but I hope I made some semblance of sense with that.

Selfishness may insure survival in the short term, but to contribute to the gene pool --which is the actual hinge point(??) of evolutionary theory -- you usually have to engage in cooperative behavior. Add to that level of cooperation required for us wee humans  to achieve any level of personal security in the natural setting and to achieve any level of technological progress over time and you can well argue that cooperation is the hallmark of human survival and progress.

 

Kaizoku Kaisarian

 

Hobbes has to be put in his historical context. He was writing during the English Civil War, during a long history of violence.  What else could he know? His writing was also rooted in the feudal class tradition. The idea of "a war of all against all" (I think was his phrase) may make sense if you are seated at the top of a feudal hierarchy and don't need to be aware of the various levels of cooperation required to maintain the system and its members, nevermind to substain a state of war. Where does the pork-chop come from Thomas?

 

 

Honestly, as a Catholic, it's even hard to swallow original sin. It's important in religious rituals, but it's just so stupid.

Someone else touched on this in this thread. Isn't the story of Genesis sort of a metaphor which founds the nature of sin in the recognition of self, while at the same time saying that is the only way to redemption. Just interesting. All I know about this is from the Cohen brothers version of the movie "True Grit".  Worth the price just for Jeff Bridges but...

http://opinionator.b...-new-true-grit/


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#98
Naughty Bear

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I always go to the temple to make merit, visit family bones and hope the best for my family etc.

I have and always will try to do the right thing. I simply can't be rude and outright nasty. Even then I will still remain polite but express my annoyance, I won't raise my voice.

I know many good people who desire to do good. It's the reason why I chose my degree, because it can help people in the future.

I actually hope I can make a difference.

#99
Naughty Bear

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yes. we are born evil. only by seeking christ can we hope to be anything but

176b210490cdddcac0bc186dd1b69694fa7b50b3

I really like this picture. I do believe we have hope as a species.

#100
Dovahzeymahlkey

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you realize how much of a badass jesus was when you realize that picture was happening during a raging storm out in the middle of the ocean.


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