483 réponses à ce sujet

[MrFob]

Well, there is one problem I can see with the effect of the crucible not spreading through the entire galaxy.

Spoiler

If the synthesis effect doesn't spread everywhere, neither should control/destroy. If that is the case, there may still be reapers out there and in any of the three cases the catalyst's "new solution" would be a bit of a joke (well, more so that I already think it is).
How do we know all the effects of the crucible spread in the same manner? Because we see it during the final cutscene of ME3, when we get the shot of the galaxy with the r/g/b wave spreading. BTW, in this little scene, it sure looks like the wave from each relay is spreading way further than one pesky star system and the entire galaxy seems to be covered there as well.

So yea, while I guess you could somehow write your way around all these issues to a point where you have isolated systems, you do that and the next fan fury is a given (for good reason IMO).

[Malanek]

As McFly pointed out, the Citadel controls all relays, so it goes through the entire network.

 

And in addition, it spreads to systems without relays anyway. 

In any science fiction/fantasy writing the writers should be given a bit of latitude as to how technology/magic works and what its effects are. As far as I am aware they never explained exactly how the crucible blast worked. The biggest guideline we were given was the animation showing the pulses from each of the relays. I'm not sure how you can say with any certainty that it MUST travel through disabled/destroyed/cut off relays. In fact I would assume it probably wouldn't but would be ok whatever way the writers went on this.

 

That's not to say I think this is a good idea, I am more concerned about the things we know more about. Motivations and existing technology etc. I don't see those systems being able to logically stay isolated with what can be expected to happen next. And when contact is established I still think there is far too big a change between synthesis and control and destroy and refuse.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

No matter what they do, because of that stupid ending, 50% of the fanbase will be upset, and they can't make three versions of the game based off it. There can only be one. Synthesis is the one that's a problem since it affect the dna of all living things, and apparently synthetics as well. Okay so we ditch synthesis and ****** off 25% of the fans. If you put in synthesis you ****** off 50%. Pick your poison. Now you have Control and Destroy. Control can be transparent. Set the story 100 years after the war and the reapers have disappeared to dark space on orders from the god emperor. Their existence no longer matters. Reapers dead. Shepard is dead. The only ones who are still alive are Liara, Wrex, and Bakara. We get a new Asari councilor (governments change). And everything is repaired. Problem solved.

 

Even if EDI got fried it doesn't matter because the Normandy would have been decommissioned, and who knows? Maybe EDIs blue box would have blown by then. Maybe AI hardware has a finite life span? They could write that into the story so that it wouldn't matter anyway. You have a new character untainted by Shepard's decision because you don't know what it was. All that is ever mentioned is that the war ended on a particular date. The actual results of the ending are never ever mentioned. That takes care of everything.

[Vazgen]

 

Well, there is one problem I can see with the effect of the crucible not spreading through the entire galaxy.

Spoiler

If the synthesis effect doesn't spread everywhere, neither should control/destroy. If that is the case, there may still be reapers out there and in any of the three cases the catalyst's "new solution" would be a bit of a joke (well, more so that I already think it is).
How do we know all the effects of the crucible spread in the same manner? Because we see it during the final cutscene of ME3, hen we get the shot of the galaxy with the r/g/b wave spreading. BTW, in this little scene, it surely looks like the wave from each relay is spreading way further than one pesky star system and the entire galaxy seems to be covered there as well.

So yea, while I guess you could somehow write your way around all these issuesto the point where you have isolated systems, you d that and the next fan fury is a given (for good reason IMO).

I'd say that fan fury is a given, no matter what they do. The wave spread in the cutscene does not cover the entire galaxy, even if you take into account "non-relay" spread. There is empty space on the left of the galactic core. The deactivation/damage/destruction of that key relay is exactly why there are no Reapers out there. New solution solves the problem, no purely organic or purely synthetic race can compete with combination or an alliance of them both, backed with the Reapers. 

 

I'm not saying it's perfect, I can even claim with some certainty that it won't happen. They'll probably either canonize one ending or dismiss them altogether.

[Iakus]

 

It ends synthetic/organic conflict because synthetics and organics are no longer different from each other. The change is quite extensive, sure. The point is, removing green eyes will make dialogue and character interactions the only way of feeling the difference between "upgraded" and "regular" characters. And as everyone still has a different personality, the dialogue will differ as well. 

 

We've already discussed the wave spread before. As for spreading through the entire network because Citadel controls it, see my LAN analogy above.

 

If characters are still "upgraded" even wihtout glowing green eyes, then what's the point of removing them?  They have still had fundamental changes made to them both physicaly and mentally.

 

As for your LAN nalogy, damaged or destroyed relays might make sense (assuming they're not caught in waves spred from other systems which, yes, to permeate to other systems without relays) However, any "solutioon" that does not impact the entire galaxy means the Reapers' job is not done, and they will enforce their "solution" on them.  It is, after all, their purpose.

[Vazgen]

If characters are still "upgraded" even wihtout glowing green eyes, then what's the point of removing them?  They have still had fundamental changes made to them both physicaly and mentally.

 

As for your LAN nalogy, damaged or destroyed relays might make sense (assuming they're not caught in waves spred from other systems which, yes, to permeate to other systems without relays) However, any "solutioon" that does not impact the entire galaxy means the Reapers' job is not done, and they will enforce their "solution" on them.  It is, after all, their purpose.

Mental change is a lot more subtle and not that hard to avoid by writing dialogue in a way that avoids synthetic/organic relations.

 

The Reaper purpose is changed though. Synthesis affects them as well. Control replaces the Catalyst with Sheplyst. The Reapers after Control and Synthesis are peaceful, at least that's how they're shown. It's not hard to imagine them not caring about those organics who chose to live in seclusion.

[StealthGamer92]

I may be wrong but isn't the 'wave' that is released actually just pure energy? If so 1- it is not visable but collored so we the players can see its progress and 2- in theory it would go on infinitely affecting everything not loseing speed and/or potency....ever.... If this is the case it would not matter if any relays are inactive, well it would but it would only delay the process slightly.

[Iakus]

Mental change is a lot more subtle and not that hard to avoid by writing dialogue in a way that avoids synthetic/organic relations.

 

The Reaper purpose is changed though. Synthesis affects them as well. Control replaces the Catalyst with Sheplyst. The Reapers after Control and Synthesis are peaceful, at least that's how they're shown. It's not hard to imagine them not caring about those organics who chose to live in seclusion.

Wreav's change was not subtle.

 

The Reapers' purpose does not change in Synthesis.  There's just no organics to "preserve" from synthetics, which also don't really exist anymore.  But if there's some corner of the galaxy where they do still exist, they'll be convinced "the chaos will come backl".  And you can bet they'll be "assuming direct control" just as fast as they can get there.  For the good of the galaxy, of course.

 

And in the case of Control, it's the same thing as the rest of the galaxy, the Reapers rule all.  The only difference is how tight a leash they hold.

 

 

 

I may be wrong but isn't the 'wave' that is released actually just pure energy? If so 1- it is not visable but collored so we the players can see its progress and 2- in theory it would go on infinitely affecting everything not loseing speed and/or potency....ever.... If this is the case it would not matter if any relays are inactive, well it would but it would only delay the process slightly.

 

Given that the wave has to affect every Reaper/organic being in the galaxy to be effective, it has to spread throughout the galaxy.  And at FTL speeds, or the whole exercise is a waste.  We see in ME3 that there are colonies as well as Reaper activity in systems without relays (we need to use fuel to get to these systems)

 

And of course, if the wave only moves at light speed, it could take years to spread out and be easily avoided by anyone with a little warning from a QEC or similar device.

[Malanek]

I may be wrong but isn't the 'wave' that is released actually just pure energy? If so 1- it is not visable but collored so we the players can see its progress and 2- in theory it would go on infinitely affecting everything not loseing speed and/or potency....ever.... If this is the case it would not matter if any relays are inactive, well it would but it would only delay the process slightly.

Is it? And if so how fast is it going? Assuming light speed it could still take thousands of years to reach the isolated systems in this discussion. And again, a little too much is being based on an animation cutscene. The writers have a lot of leeway in that regard.

[Vazgen]

Wreav's change was not subtle.

 

The Reapers' purpose does not change in Synthesis.  There's just no organics to "preserve" from synthetics, which also don't really exist anymore.  But if there's some corner of the galaxy where they do still exist, they'll be convinced "the chaos will come backl".  And you can bet they'll be "assuming direct control" just as fast as they can get there.  For the good of the galaxy, of course.

 

And in the case of Control, it's the same thing as the rest of the galaxy, the Reapers rule all.  The only difference is how tight a leash they hold.

You won't talk with Wreav though. You'll meet entirely new characters and you won't have anything to compare their outlook to.

 

Synthesis affects Reapers as well. They too become green. They get understanding of organics. Thus, they change and so do their directives.

 

Reapers don't rule all in Control. They protect, according to Shepard. It depends on what you see as protection. Will they go on offensive if there is a potential threat? Or stay in line and only act if their people are attacked? It's ultimately up to the writers what to do with it, it's not set in stone by the endings. 

I may be wrong but isn't the 'wave' that is released actually just pure energy? If so 1- it is not visable but collored so we the players can see its progress and 2- in theory it would go on infinitely affecting everything not loseing speed and/or potency....ever.... If this is the case it would not matter if any relays are inactive, well it would but it would only delay the process slightly.

The wave is space magic. It can choose to destroy synthetics, control them, make Earth a charring brick, change DNA of every living creature in the galaxy... Whatever it is, it's not pure energy

[StealthGamer92]

You two could verry well be right. I was just reading the debate here and that thought entered my heead so I replied with it. But if it does go infinitely there would be a point where you couldn't avoid it anymore. 

[StealthGamer92]

 

The wave is space magic. It can choose to destroy synthetics, control them, make Earth a charring brick, change DNA of every living creature in the galaxy... Whatever it is, it's not pure energy

 

This is Mass Effect I try to avoid looking at anything in it as magic, but rather just science beyond our comprehension.

[Iakus]

 

You won't talk with Wreav though. You'll meet entirely new characters and you won't have anything to compare their outlook to.

 

Synthesis affects Reapers as well. They too become green. They get understanding of organics. Thus, they change and so do their directives.

 

Reapers don't rule all in Control. They protect, according to Shepard. It depends on what you see as protection. Will they go on offensive if there is a potential threat? Or stay in line and only act if their people are attacked? It's ultimately up to the writers what to do with it, it's not set in stone by the endings. 

The wave is space magic. It can choose to destroy synthetics, control them, make Earth a charring brick, change DNA of every living creature in the galaxy... Whatever it is, it's not pure energy

 

Wreav illustrates that the change in Synthesis is not, in fact, subtle.  It doesn't matter what we might have to compare it to.

 

And teh Reapers become friendly because everyone has achieved "the final evolution of life" This understanding comes from everyone becoming the same.  that's the point of the green wave.  But pure organics and pure synthetics are not the same as those that have undergone Synthesis. 

 

And yes, the Reapers do rule in Control. They may be distant rulers, but things don't happen without their okay.  That's what "guiding" and "protecting" is.   They make sure everyone plays nice and is protected.  I highly doubt the Shepalyst would look kindly on any potential threat to the status quo.

 

I do agree that the wave is space magic, and a rather poor usage of Clarke's Third Law.

[Vazgen]

Wreav illustrates that the change in Synthesis is not, in fact, subtle.  It doesn't matter what we might have to compare it to.

 

And teh Reapers become friendly because everyone has achieved "the final evolution of life" This understanding comes from everyone becoming the same.  that's the point of the green wave.  But pure organics and pure synthetics are not the same as those that have undergone Synthesis. 

 

And yes, the Reapers do rule in Control. They may be distant rulers, but things don't happen without their okay.  That's what "guiding" and "protecting" is.   They make sure everyone plays nice and is protected.  I highly doubt the Shepalyst would look kindly on any potential threat to the status quo.

 

I do agree that the wave is space magic, and a rather poor usage of Clarke's Third Law.

You see the change in Wreav because you've knew him before the change. If you meet a totally new character, will you attribute him being peaceful to Synthesis or purely to his own character?

 

They are not the same, sure. But that doesn't mean the Reapers will go after them. They got new understanding, thus their goals are pretty much subject to change. Writing it that way will not contradict anything what the ending shows.

 

That's your perception. Write them to act as a protecting force, never venturing outside Council Space and again, nothing from what the ending shows us is contradicted.

[Revan Reborn]

This is Mass Effect I try to avoid looking at anything in it as magic, but rather just science beyond our comprehension.

That's kind of hard to do when Drew Karpyshyn referred to the reapers and their advanced technology as "space magic." However you want to view it, BioWare will have an explanation, no matter if it makes sense or is absolutely silly.

 

My only issue with the Ark theory is it was purely constructed as a scapegoat to avoid the ME3 endings. Anybody who deludes themselves into believing a theory with no substantial backing, outside of a t-shirt, will just be disappointed by what the next Mass Effect does. Even the entirety of the Indoctrination theory has more validity as it at least analyzed aspects of ME3 itself.

 

I honestly believe those who continue to argue that ME3's endings cannot be "resolved" are merely saying that because they'd rather see those endings avoided altogether. I find this scenario to be unlikely as well, and I will be surprised if we cannot visit some old and familiar locations. The Citadel being the most obvious place we would most likely revisit as it has been in ever Mass Effect game, and it was at least rebuilt in High EMS Destroy along with the Mass Relays.

 

Especially if we are a human N7 Operative, I don't see why we couldn't visit the Sol System via Mass Relay as well as exploring the new region of space that the next Mass Effect will largely showcase. Again, DAI is a great example of a game that takes place in the future from DAO and DA2 and revisits old locations. I see the next Mass Effect following a very similar development path to DAI.

[StealthGamer92]

That's kind of hard to do when Drew Karpyshyn referred to the reapers and their advanced technology as "space magic." However you want to view it, BioWare will have an explanation, no matter if it makes sense or is absolutely silly.

 

My only issue with the Ark theory is it was purely constructed as a scapegoat to avoid the ME3 endings. Anybody who deludes themselves into believing a theory with no substantial backing, outside of a t-shirt, will just be disappointed by what the next Mass Effect does. Even the entirety of the Indoctrination theory has more validity as it at least analyzed aspects of ME3 itself.

 

I honestly believe those who continue to argue that ME3's endings cannot be "resolved" are merely saying that because they'd rather see those endings avoided altogether. I find this scenario to be unlikely as well, and I will be surprised if we cannot visit some old and familiar locations. The Citadel being the most obvious place we would most likely revisit as it has been in ever Mass Effect game, and it was at least rebuilt in High EMS Destroy along with the Mass Relays.

 

Especially if we are a human N7 Operative, I don't see why we couldn't visit the Sol System via Mass Relay as well as exploring the new region of space that the next Mass Effect will largely showcase. Again, DAI is a great example of a game that takes place in the future from DAO and DA2 and revisits old locations. I see the next Mass Effect following a very similar development path to DAI.

I admit I am not hard to please. That said if I am mad it was something big. An Ark story would make me mad. I would like my Shepard's universe in ME Next but if that is not possible I am willing to accept whatever canon ending Bioware chooses to go with.

[Revan Reborn]

I admit I am not hard to please. That said if I am mad it was something big. An Ark story would make me mad. I would like my Shepard's universe in ME Next but if that is not possible I am willing to accept whatever canon ending Bioware chooses to go with.

Yep. The entire idea of the Ark theory is not only insulting to the fans, but BioWare. It's more or less legitimizes the view of those who claim the ending "ruined" the franchise. I'll just be happy when the next Mass Effect actually releases and quells these more ridiculous theories and speculations people are coming up with.

[Iakus]

You see the change in Wreav because you've knew him before the change. If you meet a totally new character, will you attribute him being peaceful to Synthesis or purely to his own character?

 

They are not the same, sure. But that doesn't mean the Reapers will go after them. They got new understanding, thus their goals are pretty much subject to change. Writing it that way will not contradict anything what the ending shows.

 

That's your perception. Write them to act as a protecting force, never venturing outside Council Space and again, nothing from what the ending shows us is contradicted.

If I knew Synthesis had taken place, then yeah, it would always be at the back of my mind "Is this their real personality, or is this a result of Brainwashing for the Greater Good?"

 

The point of Synthesis (and all the endings, really) is that organics and synthetics inherently cannot get along.  Ever.  the chaos will always come back.  Thus they have to be changed into something else "for the greater good"  Every synthetic.  Every organic down to the lowest microbe.  The existence of any pure organics or pure synthetics means thatthe chaos will come back eventually.  That doesn't mean the Rapers will start harvesting, necessarilly.  But you can bet they'll try to force Synthesis on any holdouts.

[Vazgen]

If I knew Synthesis had taken place, then yeah, it would always be at the back of my mind "Is this their real personality, or is this a result of Brainwashing for the Greater Good?"

 

The point of Synthesis (and all the endings, really) is that organics and synthetics inherently cannot get along.  Ever.  the chaos will always come back.  Thus they have to be changed into something else "for the greater good"  Every synthetic.  Every organic down to the lowest microbe.  The existence of any pure organics or pure synthetics means thatthe chaos will come back eventually.  That doesn't mean the Rapers will start harvesting, necessarilly.  But you can bet they'll try to force Synthesis on any holdouts.

The question might persist, but there will be no clear answer, it'll be entirely dependent on the quality of writing.

 

Synthesis can't be forced as the Catalyst told us. The chaos may come back for those other species. Will the Reapers care about them? Or they'll stick with the "upgraded" society, not bothering with those "inferior" species unless forced to defend themselves? Both can be written and both don't contradict what the ending shows us. 

[Iakus]

The question might persist, but there will be no clear answer, it'll be entirely dependent on the quality of writing.

 

Synthesis can't be forced as the Catalyst told us. The chaos may come back for those other species. Will the Reapers care about them? Or they'll stick with the "upgraded" society, not bothering with those "inferior" species unless forced to defend themselves? Both can be written and both don't contradict what the ending shows us. 

Except the ending does completely contradicts this.

 

Unless you think the trees wanted Synthesis.  Or Javik, who hates synthetic life in all forms.   Or, well, anyone caught in the green wave who had no freaking idea what was happening.

 

And the Reapers will care, because like I said, conflict is inevitable.  Or so they believe. 

[Vazgen]

Except the ending does completely contradicts this.

 

Unless you think the trees wanted Synthesis.  Or Javik, who hates synthetic life in all forms.   Or, well, anyone caught in the green wave who had no freaking idea what was happening.

 

And the Reapers will care, because like I said, conflict is inevitable.  Or so they believe. 

Forced without the Crucible I mean. Unless you think they'll transport Citadel and Crucible to those remote systems using it as a mobile weapon platform to turn everyone into "synthesized" creatures. 

 

You don't know what the Reapers believe after Synthesis. They are changed, much like Wreav or everyone else. Their motives after the ending are pretty much open to interpretation.

[Iakus]

Forced without the Crucible I mean. Unless you think they'll transport Citadel and Crucible to those remote systems using it as a mobile weapon platform to turn everyone into "synthesized" creatures. 

 

You don't know what the Reapers believe after Synthesis. They are changed, much like Wreav or everyone else. Their motives after the ending are pretty much open to interpretation.

 

Or just rig another Crucible and find a way to fire it at these hypotheticsl remote systems.  WHich by all right hsould have been Synthesized the first time.

 

I do admit it would be rather tragic irony if the Reapers, after forcing Synthesis on teh galaxy, afterwards figured it wasn't necessary after all.

[Iakus]

Yep. The entire idea of the Ark theory is not only insulting to the fans, but BioWare. It's more or less legitimizes the view of those who claim the ending "ruined" the franchise. I'll just be happy when the next Mass Effect actually releases and quells these more ridiculous theories and speculations people are coming up with.

Even without ruining the franchise, it would validate that the franchise had reached a point where there is simply too much divergence to continue without trivializing player choice.

 

More than it already has I mean.

[Revan Reborn]

Even without ruining the franchise, it would validate that the franchise had reached a point where there is simply too much divergence to continue without trivializing player choice.

 

More than it already has I mean.

Did ME becoming bigger than BioWare could handle? Arguably yes. Do I believe they can do a better job going forward and not dig themselves into a ditch? Absolutely. They made some mistakes along the way. No denying that. However, building any kind of future story that entirely negates the original trilogy and its endings would be an absolute disaster.

 

Are we really debating the merits of Synthesis? It's a terrible idea. Forced peace through forced evolution? There are so many reasons it's a horrendous option that this thread could go on forever. I couldn't even possibly imaging reapers "holding hands" and "picking daisies" even with their new understanding from Synthesis. They were weapons of Mass Destruction built to "preserve" organics and nothing more. The only good reaper is a dead one. You merely place the galaxy in risk by allowing any to live. Do all of those organics who were harvested and turned into abominations a favor and put them out of their misery for good.

[Iakus]

Did ME becoming bigger than BioWare could handle? Arguably yes. Do I believe they can do a better job going forward and not dig themselves into a ditch? Absolutely. They made some mistakes along the way. No denying that. However, building any kind of future story that entirely negates the original trilogy and its endings would be an absolute disaster.

 

Are we really debating the merits of Synthesis? It's a terrible idea. Forced peace through forced evolution? There are so many reasons it's a horrendous option that this thread could go on forever. I couldn't even possibly imaging reapers "holding hands" and "picking daisies" even with their new understanding from Synthesis. They were weapons of Mass Destruction built to "preserve" organics and nothing more. The only good reaper is a dead one. You merely place the galaxy in risk by allowing any to live. Do all of those organics who were harvested and turned into abominations a favor and put them out of their misery for good.

ACtually what I think we're debating is if, rather than Ark-theory,  Bioware went with a "some corner of the galaxy didn't get hit by the beam" would Synthesized Reapers leave them alone, or try to force Synthesis on them too.

 

Me, I think Bioware painted itself into a corner and is destined to p*ss people off no matter what move they make.  Whether they negate, trivialize, canonize, or try to play all sides of the previous endings, there will be outcry.