48 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainPatch]

Dragon Age Origins was, imho, a pretty good RPG.  Quite a bit of hack-and-slash, but a LOT of character interaction with a LOT of decision points where one style would win friends but also alienate others.  Then along came DA2 and it seemed like roleplaying was an afterthought behind a HUGE amount of Action hacking-and-slashing.  Really annoyed a lot of gamers that had been hoping for more DAO gaming goodness.  Console gamers loved it, but then it was pretty obvious the focus of the design was to utilize console controls.  Since it seems most diehard RPGers are also PC-users, that might have accounted for much of the RPGer disillusionment.  Then EA/BioWare announced DA3 was in the works:  “Our goal with Dragon Age: Inquisition is to usher in the next generation of role playing games,”  If this is the "next generation of role playing games", I think the genre is about as good as dead.  Just where is the roleplaying?  Making menu selections on a dialog wheel?  Deciding where to put upgrade points?  Choosing "either" or "or"?  How much character are you infusing into your character?

 

It wouldn't be so bad as "just a game" if only the interface controls were reasonable.  But it seems I'm spending more time wrestling with my keyboard and mouse, trying to just get my character to move how I want to move and to where I want to go than to actually navigate combat situations smoothly.  "User-friendly" and "intuitive" this interface is not.  Just trying to get through the first Boss fight has killed my interest in this game.  I want to play the game, not be stymied by its functionality.

 

I thought DA2 was bad enough in regards to the diminishing roleplaying attribute of the series.  This, DA3, is worse.

[Rawgrim]

The roleplaying in this game is about the role you have during combat.

[Gel214th]

Yes, I'm enjoying the roleplaying. Especially the choices that you are given, and the emotion options. 

 

I have no difficulty with the interface, and the "fighting" with the controls can be solved by using the Interface and Control options. You can swap buttons, change your keybindings ( I changed Q and E in the Tactical view with A and D). 

 

Take some time to play with the options. The Default options may work for 90% of the people, the Controls and Interface options are there for the other 10%. 

[AceHalberd]

I'll agree to the sentiment. It does feel a lot more like another Hawke - it's a bit more malleble, especially due to the origins, but it does feel like you're playing a character who IS a character their own right as opposed to you taking on the role and fully being that person. That's for two reasons I think. The first is the random banter you interact in, without any input on your behalf - maybe your character wouldn't make a snappy quip, but is a more stoic or serious character, but if so, too bad, headcannon what just happened out. The second thing is the voice acting; you can't do a proper role playing game with a customisable character when you give that character a voice, because the actor always gives things a certain tone, a weight that you may or may not intend yourself. This is why DA:O felt like a better RPG, because you felt ownership of that custom character as opposed to just thinking you had input.

[Examurai]

  Making menu selections on a dialog wheel?   Choosing "either" or "or"?  

 

What do you mean by these two?

[Lars]

while there are defenitly less options then in dao (wich is a given seeing were not a silent protagonist this time around) and there are certainly minor quests where the only options are yes and no.

However i was pleasantly suprised when i got a party banter from varric in wich i could choose between answers.

The way i see it is that you get to roleplay a character within a bound set of rules wich makes the different options alot more meaningful.

I cant count the number of times in dao where completly different dailogues led to practically the exact same results.

[Myusha123]

I'm relatively enjoying the options thus far. But haven't really gone too indepth. Still installing most of it. 
Did get worried over one slight issue. Feels like there was an option to say the exact same thing, except with three different ways to say it?  Eh. 

Thing is, older RPG games didn't even give you choice. You followed a linear storyline to a linear ending. Here you follow a linear storyline with some choices, that lead to a linear ending with some variation because of said choices. 

[CaptainPatch]

What do you mean by these two?

How many times have you looked at the available dialog choices and thought, "But I wouldn't want to say any of those things!  What I really want to say is "_________"?  Having your dialog forced upon you -- and most of those boiling down to Positive, Negative, or Neutral -- really isn't you roleplaying a character.  It's you cloning to the developers' limited imagination.  There is definitely no "outside of the box" thinking involved.  The reason why it is this way is actually pretty obvious: it requires a LOT of additional programming to provide 6 choices instead of three.  But the fact that the developers decided to use a wheel for dialog was itself a limiting factor: you can only fit so many choices in that limited space.  In contrast, an expandable list of dialog responses could literally provide an infinite number of possible responses.  But even if that list offered ten different responses, it would make it possible to make the character MUCH more "you" and less stock character A, B, or C.

[kinderschlager]

IMO from what little i have gotten to play, it is still a role playing game, it's just that the decisions are spread out across so much time and space, unlike say, DA:O where everything was rather compact and you had meaningful choices left and right, this game is huge, so the truly deep choices will be spread out over hours of game play. but they ARE still there. i don't get the hate for the dialogue wheel in this game. it was there in origins too. relatively same number of choices, at least from what i have seen. we will never go back to origins style games sadly, the market is not just there, see this more like fantasy ME2/3 though and it starts to be a bit more enjoyable

[Zanallen]

How many times have you looked at the available dialog choices and thought, "But I wouldn't want to say any of those things!  What I really want to say is "_________"?  Having your dialog forced upon you -- and most of those boiling down to Positive, Negative, or Neutral -- really isn't you roleplaying a character.  It's you cloning to the developers' limited imagination.  There is definitely no "outside of the box" thinking involved.  The reason why it is this way is actually pretty obvious: it requires a LOT of additional programming to provide 6 choices instead of three.  But the fact that the developers decided to use a wheel for dialog was itself a limiting factor: you can only fit so many choices in that limited space.  In contrast, an expandable list of dialog responses could literally provide an infinite number of possible responses.  But even if that list offered ten different responses, it would make it possible to make the character MUCH more "you" and less stock character A, B, or C.

 

Having limited choices is going to happen in every game. Video games just can't provide every possible option. You have about as many options in DA:I as you did in DA:O. The main difference is that the investigation options are cordoned off in their own section as opposed to lumped in with everything else so the available options seem less at first glance. Also, the wheel can have just as many, if not more, options as the list. This has been proven before. As such, I am sorry, but you are objectively wrong.

[Hizoku]

I'm relatively enjoying the options thus far. But haven't really gone too indepth. Still installing most of it. 
Did get worried over one slight issue. Feels like there was an option to say the exact same thing, except with three different ways to say it?

Thing is, older RPG games didn't even give you choice. You followed a linear storyline to a linear ending. Here you follow a linear storyline with some choices, that lead to a linear ending with some variation because of said choices. 

that's exactly what it feels like for every dialogue choice, at least for me, since they really don't do anything past that one line of dialogue and maybe, maybe, the line following... seriously dislike it when you're given the different emotion options and the next line of dialogue the PC says goes completely against it's tone, like in the beginning when we're being questioned by Cass, you're given an option to be "tough" and yet when Cass says everyone died at the conclave (i think that's what she says), the Inquisitor instantly gets a sad/concerned look on his face.(that does not help my roleplaying experience)

[Tielis]

Once I got a handle on the controls I found that I am starting to enjoy the game.  No, it's not the fluidity of DAO or DA2, but it'll do, I suppose.

 

I really like that I have a lot of ways to customize my character's personality with the dialogue tones.

 

Now if I could just stop starting over because OMG her chin looks so ugly, holy cow, what terrible eyebrows when she smiles, etc etc etc.  After the controls, making a character I like is the hardest part of the game.

[Commander Michael]

No walk toggle = no role play

 

[Zanallen]

No walk toggle = no role play

 

 

There is a run toggle. I haven't used it yet, so I can't say for sure, but doesn't it allow you to walk?

[Casuist]

that's exactly what it feels like for every dialogue choice, at least for me, since they really don't do anything past that one line of dialogue and maybe, maybe, the line following... seriously dislike it when you're given the different emotion options and the next line of dialogue the PC says goes completely against it's tone, like in the beginning when we're being questioned by Cass, you're given an option to be "tough" and yet when Cass says everyone died at the conclave (i think that's what she says), the Inquisitor instantly gets a sad/concerned look on his face.(that does not help my roleplaying experience)

 

Your character isn't concerned about being bound in a room, threatened by soldiers, with a flawed memory, questioned an interrogator who would really like to kill him?

 

I mean... there's tough and then there's... 

[Bhaal]

There is a run toggle. I haven't used it yet, so I can't say for sure, but doesn't it allow you to walk?

No.

[CaptainPatch]

IMO from what little i have gotten to play, it is still a role playing game, it's just that the decisions are spread out across so much time and space, unlike say, DA:O where everything was rather compact and you had meaningful choices left and right, this game is huge, so the truly deep choices will be spread out over hours of game play. but they ARE still there. i don't get the hate for the dialogue wheel in this game. it was there in origins too. relatively same number of choices, at least from what i have seen. we will never go back to origins style games sadly, the market is not just there, see this more like fantasy ME2/3 though and it starts to be a bit more enjoyable

You touch on several Truths (with a capital T) here.  Yes, it still qualifies as a RPG.  (Actually, an Action game with RPG elements.)  But more importantly, as you point out, the occurrences of roleplaying  has been spaced out.  That makes the RPG element much more diluted than DA:O.  There may be many, maybe even monumental choices to be made, but the amount of time spent actively hacking-and-slashing or passively sitting back as many cinematic cut scenes unfold is NOT time spent roleplaying.  You are also quite correct that we will unfortunately never go back to games as immersive as DA:O was.  That one is simple Economics.  Given the entire gaming market, roughly 60-70% of them self-identify as being predominantly Action-oriented.  That's a predictable result of having an entire generation raised as console gamers, given what consoles' bread and butter was/is.  RPGers, otoh, amount to less than 30% of the market.  So understandably developers look to maximize there total Sales by making their games Action-heavy, but with enough roleplaying to provide at least a subsistence diet to the RPGers.

 

Zanallen said:

 

"Also, the wheel can have just as many, if not more, options as the list."

 

More isn't possible; perhaps as many, but only with an awkward layout that involves a spoke of one wheel leading to an entirely separate wheel, which in turn has a spoke leading to another wheel with at least one spoke.... and so on.  IMHO, it is much simpler to provide all of the choices in one place = an expandable list.  (Just scroll down when the list gets too long for the screen.)

[Epyon5757]

  Since it seems most diehard RPGers are also PC-users, that might have accounted for much of the RPGer disillusionment.  

 

 

I will strongly disagree with this.  I know far more console RPG diehards than I do PC RPG diehards.  Most of them used to be PC gamers, who either got tired of pouring money into their rigs every six months to play the newest game or decided that a console had more overall functionality as a gaming and entertainment hub with their 60" TV - especially given that gaming experiences were largely similar or even easier to pick up on than PC.  I also know RPG diehards who've never played on anything BUT a console BECAUSE some companies started developing for console first instead of PC first.

 

Consider: Windows sales have been declining for YEARS, and this year is the largest drop in a long while.  Mac sales aren't growing.  OTOH, console sales ARE growing and game units moved on consoles far outstrips units moved on PC.

 

The shift to a console focus by game studios is nothing more than adaptation to market trends.  

[AlanC9]

Dragon Age Origins was, imho, a pretty good RPG. Quite a bit of hack-and-slash, but a LOT of character interaction with a LOT of decision points where one style would win friends but also alienate others. Then along came DA2 and it seemed like roleplaying was an afterthought behind a HUGE amount of Action hacking-and-slashing.

Did DA2 actually have more combat? I remember spending most of both games in combat.

[CaptainPatch]

Consider: Windows sales have been declining for YEARS, and this year is the largest drop in a long while.  Mac sales aren't growing.  OTOH, console sales ARE growing and game units moved on consoles far outstrips units moved on PC.

 

The shift to a console focus by game studios is nothing more than adaptation to market trends.  

I believe you are using a couple of faulty interpretations.  For one, Windows sales have been dropping off for two reasons: 1) Nearly every PC owner already has a version of Windows that he is using.  They are procrastinating on moving to the next version until the games they want are no longer supported by his current version of Windows.  2) Any long time Windows user has become familiar with the axiom "Buy only every other version of Windows."  That's because Micro$oft releases innovative elements in a new version, but it isn't until the next version that all the bugs that appeared with the innovations have been corrected.  Like XP was solid, but Vista was quirky as all get out.  Then 7 fixed all of Vista's problems and was another solid OS again.  Then along came 8, and as expected, it's quirky as all get out.

 

Then check your Marketing info:

 

http://arstechnica.c...console-gaming/

 

and 

 

http://www.gamesindu...n-this-year-dfc

 

For years PC gamers wailed that PC games were declining.  But it turns out that it was NOT because consoles were so much better.  It was primarily because of PC software piracy.  Far too much of the market was being serviced by pirates than by the manufacturers.  But with the advent of Steam and similar digital distribution hubs, manufacturers are provided with a much more secure distribution system that extends any game's sales ability to past the 6 months during the piracy years, to several years through digital distribution.  This development has persuaded developers to return to pushing mostly PC games with console once again becoming an afterthought most of the time.

 

 

Did DA2 actually have more combat?

In a word, yup.

[SomeUsername]

Not sure if I can even talk to my companions when I want to because so far I can't, but whatever I guess 

[Epyon5757]

 

I believe you are using a couple of faulty interpretations.  For one, Windows sales have been dropping of for two reasons: 1) Nearly every PC owner already has a version of Windows that he is using.  They are procrastinating on moving to the next version until the games they want are no longer supported by his current version of Windows.  2) Any long time Windows user has become familiar with the axiom "Buy only every other version of Windows."  That's because Micro$oft releases innovative elements in a new version, but it isn't until the next version that all the bugs that appeared with the innovations have been corrected.  Like XP was solid, but Vista was quirky as all get out.  Then 7 fixed all of Vista's problems and was another solid OS again.  Then along came 8, and as expected, it's quirky as all get out.

 

Then check your Marketing info:

 

http://arstechnica.c...console-gaming/

 

and 

 

http://www.gamesindu...n-this-year-dfc

 

For years PC gamers wailed that PC games were declining.  But it turns out that it was NOT because consoles were so much better.  It was primarily because of PC software piracy.  Far too much of the market was being serviced by pirates than by the manufacturers.  But with the advent of Steam and similar digital distribution hubs, manufacturers are provided with a much more secure distribution system that that extends any game's sales ability to past the 6 months during the piracy years, to several years through digital distribution.  This development has persuaded developers to return to pushing mostly PC games with console once again becoming an afterthought most of the time.

 

 

In a word, yup.

 

 

 

Windows does have Star Trek movie syndrome, I'll agree with that.  Yet the Windows argument falls short as an explanation for declining sales when Android and IPad tablet sales largely fill the % gap in declining pc sales with their sales advancement and growth (and even they are becoming stagnated - but they aren't declining like Windows does).  Microsoft is giving SUBSIDIES to the manufacturers and retailers to sell sub-$400 pc's to try and keep pace - and while I don't have access to Microsoft's most detailed tracking data, they'd only do that if they're worried about their higher end performance with the more expensive machines.  

 

I don't think anyone will argue that a PC game is somehow inferior to a console game - PC games will ALWAYS outperform console games in terms of fluidity and looks - but less people game on PC than game on console anymore.  PC gamers are largely older people with the means to maintain expensive and high performance rigs, and there's nothing wrong with that - but the next generation of gamers was raised on consoles.  They are far more accessible and require far less money to keep running.  Steam and Origin are great services, but the problem still remains that to play the newest games on the highest settings, you're dumping 300+ every year into a new graphics card or better memory.  There's a reason that the only people I know who still game on PC are single, and the ones who aren't single but still game PC's only exist in MMO land now.

 

PC gaming won't ever die, but it will never again control the market like it did ten years ago.  For all practical and marketing purposes, and with exception to a very few developers and game series (Witcher, Elder Scrolls in particular) who will always focus on the PC market first, the xbone, 4, and pc are more or less in a state of parity when it comes to development.

[veeia]

I don't think it's a great game for roleplaying except within a very limited range of personalities. It is, however, so far better than DA2 in that regard, but I don't actually know if that's a positive or not yet. At least Hawke had a strong personality? My PC so far doesn't feel very defined, not by my dialogue choices nor by the voice acting/autodialogue. But we'll see. Preliminary assessment, of course. 

[Xeper84]

this game has a lot of important choices. For example:

if you decide you'll use daggers for the next fight you'll have to live with them until the fight is over ...sry couldn't resist

[Lee T]

 Then along came DA2 and it seemed like roleplaying was an afterthought behind a HUGE amount of Action hacking-and-slashing.  Really annoyed a lot of gamers that had been hoping for more DAO gaming goodness.  Console gamers loved it, but then it was pretty obvious the focus of the design was to utilize console controls.

That my friend is a gross oversimplification. The platform you use does not make the gamer you are.

That being said action and gameplay over story and roleplay has been a big problem for Bioware those last years and it has marred just about every sequel of DAO and ME. This has been a concern for me and my friends wether they play on console or PC because we are pen & paper RPG players first.

We know computer/console games wont ever emulate these games correctly but they are generally fun to play as long as they do not stray from their sources too much. As far as I'm concerned this started with ME2 where pretty much every effort was made to make the game a better shooter first a better RPG second (and pretty far behind).