18 réponses à ce sujet

[count_4]

The old thread was closed with the note that we can discuss the Denuvo protection if we have some solid numbers. Well, here you go.

 

I played Inquisition for one hour, running it from a dedicated SSD with it being the only application to run on or access that drive. Here are the results (F9 is the important entry here).

 

Before starting the game:

 

 

After one hour of gameplay:

 

You can disregard BB - it's caused by the changes Intel made to the error correction of the Sandforce controller firmware.

Also, the raw read/write numbers of the DAI executable:

 

 

There was no other executable running beside it with significant read or write numbers. So overall DAI wrote about 70MB which are mostly if not all savegames (I save a lot ).

The 12GB of reading are simply game data since it obviously can't hold everything in the RAM (well, it could as a 64-bit application but that's not how engines usually work) and has to swap quite a bit.

 

Also, as for CPU and RAM usage - the game uses about 2.3GB RAM and slightly more than one core (i7 with HT active) which is perfectly fine for a game this size.

 

So there you have it. Denuvo does not fry your hard drive and neither does it have any noticeable impact on resource usage.

[Uakronkid]

I kind of wonder how this is when compared to similar modern games.

[PhazeDelta1]

Anyone with half a brain knows this.    

[Kantr]

Anyone with half a brain knows this.    

Alas some of the more vocal members of the forum don't have half a brain.

[NaurDragon]

Thanks for the info. I haven't found any real evidence which would back the claims that denuvo is harmful to my computer so DAI is pretty much back in my shopping list. Better to be safe/sure than sorry.

 

Boy am I glad that I ask quetions instead of think that I know all.

 

A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.

[Taleroth]

Alas some of the more vocal members of the forum don't have half a brain.

I've got like half a dozen I could lend them if they want. Most have only been barely chewed on.

[Vakturion]

Something to refute those silly claims, great work! 

[pdegan2814]

Do we know that the writes would show up under the actual game.exe file though? I did find it odd that after less than 2 hours of playing, Samsung Magician said that the total bytes written went from 0.77TB to 0.79TB, ~20GB worth. The machine wasn't running anything else in the background, so where did those 20GB of writes come from? I don't *want* to believe any gamedev would be so stupid as to use a DRM system that wears down a hard drive like these accusations suggest, but I'd sure love to hear some sort of official statement about exactly how the DRM system works(as in something more than a denial that it's wrecking drives) instead of a bunch of people calling each other names back & forth and claims of proof that are hardly definitive.

[count_4]

Do we know that the writes would show up under the actual game.exe file though? I did find it odd that after less than 2 hours of playing, Samsung Magician said that the total bytes written went from 0.77TB to 0.79TB, ~20GB worth. The machine wasn't running anything else in the background, so where did those 20GB of writes come from? 

That's why I included a) the raw numbers from the Intel SSD tool and b ) mentioned that there was no other executable with any significant read activity during gameplay.

 

By the way, my current raw NAND writes are 4930GB, up from 4918 after initial testing. However, that includes ~12GB of Battlefield 4 updates (main update + Final Stand DLC, released on thursday) on that drive and about 8 more hours of DAI. So effectively zero write activity from DAI on that drive over a course of now 10+ monitored hours.

 

I don't know where your 20GB come from, maybe some Origin updates you didn't notice, but it does not appear to have any connection to Denuvo or DAI.

[Gel214th]

The old thread was closed with the note that we can discuss the Denuvo protection if we have some solid numbers. Well, here you go.

 

I played Inquisition for one hour, running it from a dedicated SSD with it being the only application to run on or access that drive. Here are the results (F9 is the important entry here).

 

Before starting the game:

 

 

After one hour of gameplay:

 

 

What program did you use to pull these stats?

[OliPicard]

Thanks for clarifying. Does this mean HDDs also get a clean bill of health?

 

I lived thought SecuROM and just the fact it's the same company behind Denuvo worries me.

 

Can we clear up some facts?

 

1) The Denuvo system only runs while the game is being played. There are no background processes or hooks that could be used to damage the computer.

2) The Denuvo system does not write large amounts of data onto a single drive sector between encrypting and decrypting the files. (Would be nice if bioware could confirm this one.)

3) The Denuvo system has been implimented to ensure the game cannot be tampered with.

4) The DX errors being produced by the DA:I are not the Denuvo system.

[Chaos17]

I still dislike DRM.

[Darkly Tranquil]

Meh, drives are cheap anyway. Stick it on an 60gb SSD and not care.

[Herethos]

I'm interested in seeing cpu cycle count, cpu load and memory usage with the DRM and without the DRM.

[Pootmatoot]

Meh, drives are cheap anyway. Stick it on an 60gb SSD and not care.

 

 

Given we know nothing about how this works, I don't think you can say that. It's likely that it would do massive encryption/decryption read/writes onto the drive your OS was on, not where the game files are stored.

 

Of course, we know absolutely nothing nothing about the practicalities of how it works (hence the scare stories). All we know for sure is the CPU usage, not SDD impact (it's clear that every game with it so far has some very weird CPU over-use going on... whether or not that's tied to those games shared performance issues is another issue).

[OliPicard]

Of course, we know absolutely nothing nothing about the practicalities of how it works (hence the scare stories). All we know for sure is the CPU usage, not SDD impact (it's clear that every game with it so far has some very weird CPU over-use going on... whether or not that's tied to those games shared performance issues is another issue).

 

Would be good if Bioware did explain how the system works and the reasons as to why the SSDs wont be impacted. We can run tests on our systems but ultimately there needs to be good enough evidence to convince customers to play the game again. I must say as soon as i heard the words secuROM i was tempted to uninstall the game. SecuROM was the bain of my life due to it's limits. Denuvo is a fairly new technology and it would be good to get reassurance that it's not going to be reversed engineered into a malware payload. The company's previous history would indicate that they have the experience and knowledge to avoid the problem again but it's worth investigating

[Pootmatoot]

Would be good if Bioware did explain how the system works and the reasons as to why the SSDs wont be impacted. We can run tests on our systems but ultimately there needs to be good enough evidence to convince customers to play the game again. I must say as soon as i heard the words secuROM i was tempted to uninstall the game. SecuROM was the bain of my life due to it's limits. Denuvo is a fairly new technology and it would be good to get reassurance that it's not going to be reversed engineered into a malware payload. The company's previous history would indicate that they have the experience and knowledge to avoid the problem again but it's worth investigating

 

 

 

I think the answer will be quicker than you think, and it won't be from Bioware.

 

It'll be once the game is cracked, as it obviously will be. If the cracked version mysteriously works on dualcore systems and doesn't hit 100C 95% CPU usage on other systems..... well..... people are not going to be happy.

 

Suddenly the cracked version is a better product for 70% of PC users.

[OliPicard]

Ok, Been investigating the system a bit more. Bioware claims the executable only runs within dragon age. However I have found registry keys that point to Sony's DaCa Digital Works site. It seems this is really a piece of software mimicking XCP. My biggiest concern is that the Denuvo system is acting like some sort of Rootkit hiding in the background. Preivous itterations of the software have been explioted by hackers to mask and encrypt there data behind the copy protection system. Think about it... If Bioware installs Denuvo on your system during an installation what stops a malious hacker from deciding to build a tool around it. While i completely understand Bioware needs to protect it's IP (and rightly so!), there are many ways EA is already providing Digital Rights and copy protection checks in the base Origin system (AccessDRMv4), It could do so not at the expense of the consumer's machine. While we know that some bioware employees have stated the program only operates while the game is running, it is concerning that the DSS module for licencing seems to have been tapped on to the suite.

 

 

Would love to know why the additional keys where put on my computer.

 

Would Bioware be able to clarify if theres any way of uninstalling Denuvo? This would certainly ease people's concerns.

 

 

 

What is DSS? Well it seems to be a core licencing system previously used on the SecuROM suite of Digital Authoring systems.

 

"The registry key 'DSS\Product Activation' contains License Information. Please see www.sonydadc.com/digitalworks/productactivation/licenseinformation.html for further information.The following text is reproduced here to comply with OpenSSL license terms:  Copyright © 1998-2005 The OpenSSL Project. All rights reserved.   Redistribution and use in source and binary forms, with or without  modification, are permitted provided that the following conditions  are met:   1. Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.   2. Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.   3. All advertising materials mentioning features or use of this software must display the following acknowledgment: "This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit. (http://www.openssl.org/)" [^]   4. The names "OpenSSL Toolkit" and "OpenSSL Project" must not be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without prior written permission. For written permission, please contact openssl-core@openssl.org.   5. Products derived from this software may not be called "OpenSSL" nor may "OpenSSL" appear in their names without prior written permission of the OpenSSL Project.   6. Redistributions of any form whatsoever must retain the following acknowledgment: "This product includes software developed by the OpenSSL Project for use in the OpenSSL Toolkit (http://www.openssl.org/)" [^]   THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE OpenSSL PROJECT ``AS IS'' AND ANY  EXPRESSED OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE  IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR  PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE OpenSSL PROJECT OR  ITS CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL,  SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT  NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES;  LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION)  HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT,  STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE)  ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED  OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.   This product includes cryptographic software written by Eric Young  (eay@cryptsoft.com). This product includes software written by Tim  Hudson (tjh@cryptsoft.com)."

 

And when you visit the site mentioned above... here's the wonderful response from sony.

 

"Product Activation is a Digital Rights Management (DRM) system for content distributed via CD-ROM, DVD-ROM or electronically. It was developed and is maintained by Sony DADC DigitalWorks." - http://support.digit...al-information/

 

Question Is Product Activation installed on my computer? "Product Activation is a DRM system used by software publishers to protect their intellectual property. In the course of applying the solution, certain files are placed onto the computer for the system to work properly."

 

So there you go, Yes this is DRM

 

In a sense it's anti-tamper while at the same time the licencing system seems to be part of a DRM mechanism for the anti-tampering. (The whole 5 installs per day thing would proablly be the reason as to why the Product Activation system is in place.)

 

Here's a nice example of the DSS being mentioned by SucuROM's site "reclaim my game"

 

The company has direct connections to SecuROM and even boast this on it's website. "Denuvo Anti-tamper and SecuROM can be ordered through our close partnership with Sony DADC."

 

So what does this mean going forward?

 

It seems the service has not just installing Denovo as suggested by Bioware employees but is infact also embedding Sony's Licencing system DSS (also used by  SecuROM)

 

So it would be nice to know from bioware as to why this has happened.

[count_4]

Alright, lots of stuff to go through.

 

What program did you use to pull these stats?

I used the Intel SSD toolbox (since it's an Intel SSD) as well as CrystalDisk.

 

Can we clear up some facts?

 

1) The Denuvo system only runs while the game is being played. There are no background processes or hooks that could be used to damage the computer.

2) The Denuvo system does not write large amounts of data onto a single drive sector between encrypting and decrypting the files. (Would be nice if bioware could confirm this one.)

3) The Denuvo system has been implimented to ensure the game cannot be tampered with.

4) The DX errors being produced by the DA:I are not the Denuvo system.

 

1) It seems that way at least. The game executable is digitally signed and checked by Origin, so tampering with it while it is not running is next to impossible. The alternative would be manipulating it while running which Denuvo is trying to prevent.

 

2) Can't speak for others but on my system it doesn't write anything. However, I have 16GB of RAM. Could very well be that on lower-end systems with 4GB the Denuvo has to actually start swapping stuff back to the disk. 

 

3) Well, mainly the DRM part of the game, which is its connection to Origin. Denuvos main intention is to be a safety system preventing circumvention of the DRM.

 

4) Very unlikely.

 

I'm interested in seeing cpu cycle count, cpu load and memory usage with the DRM and without the DRM.

 

Well, the performance values I get regarding CPU and RAM are perfectly fine for a game like this.

 

Of course, we know absolutely nothing nothing about the practicalities of how it works (hence the scare stories). All we know for sure is the CPU usage, not SDD impact (it's clear that every game with it so far has some very weird CPU over-use going on... whether or not that's tied to those games shared performance issues is another issue).

 

I don't have any weird CPU over-use with DAI. Might just be down to poorly ported games for all we know.

 

Ok, Been investigating the system a bit more. Bioware claims the executable only runs within dragon age. However I have found registry keys that point to Sony's DaCa Digital Works site. It seems this is really a piece of software mimicking XCP. My biggiest concern is that the Denuvo system is acting like some sort of Rootkit hiding in the background. 

 

Given the fact that those guys were behind the 'best-of-breed' (their words) copy protection system we all know and love as SecuROM, this is a valid concern. However, there is no reference to DSS or anything related in my registry. So wherever you got that from, it wasn't Dragon Age.

 

And a sidenote regarding the 'we know nothing (, Jon Snow)': I checked Denuvos FAQ which don't say anything at all. I then sent them an inquiry for some more information on how the system works, especially regarding the read/write issue.

 

Their response: Read the FAQ. 

Yeah, **** you, too.