67 réponses à ce sujet

[DreamOn88]

So I'm off exploring the hinterlands, and having fun, enjoying the tactical combat, etc. My party seems to always be beat up though. We survive a battle and are all hurt, but we don't regenerate. So how are people handling healing between fights? Do you guzzle potions and then head back to a potion box? Do you find a tent to rest? I just want to be able to start the next fight without being almost dead already.

[MetroGlobe]

Unfortunately running back to the tents after every battle is the only way to heal.  It's crazy that there are no healing spells in this game, because it forces you to constantly trek back for potions.  That wouldn't be so bad if the fast-travel system was two-way like in Skyrim (where you can fast travel to any map point you've discovered).  But here you can fast-travel back to a tent, but then you have to freaking walk back to the point you just were.

 

A complete travesty, imo.

[GhoXen]

You should save your estus and craft some lifegems (Regeneration Potions). Make great use of barriers and guard to avoid taking damage in the first place. It's highly possible to avoid damage entirely in properly coordinated fights, even on Nightmare.

[MetroGlobe]

You should save your estus and craft some lifegems (Regeneration Potions). Make great use of barriers and guard to avoid taking damage in the first place. It's highly possible to avoid damage entirely in properly coordinated fights, even on Nightmare.

 

How do you properly coordinate fights like that?  I can't seem to get my companions to do what I want them to without constantly pausing the battle and controlling them myself.  I'm really not into that (except for boss fights, in which case it's fun).  I'd much rather program their tactics and focus on my own character.

[GhoXen]

Two ways.

 

A::

Turn off AI on all characters. Micro-manage everything in tactical mode on an action by action basis.

 

B::

Control tank character and ensure maximum aggro & survivalbility. Adjust companion behaviours, especially targeting behaviours (melee DPS should "defend" ranged; ranged DPS should "follow" tank character or "controlled character").

[Khevar]

A complete travesty, imo.

Sounds like you need to turn the difficulty down.

 

Higher levels of difficulty require actual tactics.  Guard, Barrier, Crowd Control, Combos, Combat Pause, Tac Cam, Kill Order, etc. all reduce your need for health potions.

 

Most players whinging about healing in this game just aren't good at the combat mechanics.  So turn the difficulty down.  Once you figure out what you're doing, turn it back up.

 

Case in point, I run a healer in SW:TOR.  When I wind up with a group of crappy players that have no idea what they're doing I have to work my butt off trying desperately to keep everyone alive.  But when I get a group of good players that follow strategy, know their class, can avoid damage, use CC, etc I have very little healing to do. The fact you think it is a "complete travesty" that healing was changed in this game tells me you rely on it as a crutch.

 

Luckily, this is a single player game, so you can turn the difficulty down until you actually learn how to play.

 

/shrug

[Wissenschaft 2.0]

I strongly suggest crafting regen potions for your warriors. 1 tank + 2 archers + 1 Mage turns out to be a fantastic party composition. It was great in DA 2 and its just as good in DA: I.

[mooferz]

You can also try using the knight enchanter specialization like with Vivienne as that tree has the only healing skill in the game via Resurgence, although it's a focus ability.

[MetroGlobe]

Sounds like you need to turn the difficulty down.

Higher levels of difficulty require actual tactics. Guard, Barrier, Crowd Control, Combos, Combat Pause, Tac Cam, Kill Order, etc. all reduce your need for health potions.

Most players whinging about healing in this game just aren't good at the combat mechanics.
/shrug

Good thing you're here to school all of us casuls then, huh? Thanks man!

What is a kill order, and how can I program my party to execute combos? Because I am definitely not going to micromanage that stuff myself via constant pausing. Yuck. I despise turn-based combat, which is what that would essentially become.

[DrekorSilverfang]

I use 2 S&S warriors and 2 mages. The warriors basically trade taunts back and forth keeping everything on them and spreading the damage between the two of them making it very easy for guard and barriers to manage. The group has good single target damage, fantastic AoE damage and is damn near indestructible even on nightmare.

[Khevar]

Yuck. I despise turn-based combat, which is what that would essentially become.

 

So why not just turn down the difficulty?

[Dussan2]

 

 

Case in point, I run a healer in SW:TOR.  When I wind up with a group of crappy players that have no idea what they're doing I have to work my butt off trying desperately to keep everyone alive.  But when I get a group of good players that follow strategy, know their class, can avoid damage, use CC, etc I have very little healing to do. The fact you think it is a "complete travesty" that healing was changed in this game tells me you rely on it as a crutch.

 

Luckily, this is a single player game, so you can turn the difficulty down until you actually learn how to play.

 

/shrug

Problem is they removed heals from the game and the inbetween fights.  While I agree with you about coordination, when adventuring for long periods of time I find it annoying to have to go back to a camp and heal up.  HOWEVER, I think that Bioware made the right choice.  It feels more authentic in a way.  Healing in a battle and regenning all your health, is out of place if it wasn't necessary for most games to do so for game mechanics. 

 

Imagine a battlefield and every squad had a mage-healer that tossed out wireless heals to you from 20 feet away that could seal all your cuts, mend broken bones in moments. 

 

I like this.  But its taken me 10 hours of gaming to realize that I like this game and having a Wolverine healing factor would diminish the combat.  I take my time and pick my battles.  I think smarter and when I fight I pay attention. 

 

this isn't Origins or DA 2.  this is whole other ball of wax.

[ZeroClues]

While you can certainly do a decent job of minimizing the damage dealt to you party, you cannot avoid it. As a result, you do end up having to repeatedly go back and then spend time retracing your steps. Since a lot of the enemies seem to re-spawn (Hinterlands fighting mages and templars...) you then have to do some of the fights over again. It's definitely an annoying mechanic.

 

I don't really mind potions being the only way to heal, but I don't see anything added with no heal between battles. All it does is add time-consuming and unfun treks back to camp).

[finc.loki]

Sounds like you need to turn the difficulty down.

 

Higher levels of difficulty require actual tactics.  Guard, Barrier, Crowd Control, Combos, Combat Pause, Tac Cam, Kill Order, etc. all reduce your need for health potions.

 

Most players whinging about healing in this game just aren't good at the combat mechanics.  So turn the difficulty down.  Once you figure out what you're doing, turn it back up.

 

Case in point, I run a healer in SW:TOR.  When I wind up with a group of crappy players that have no idea what they're doing I have to work my butt off trying desperately to keep everyone alive.  But when I get a group of good players that follow strategy, know their class, can avoid damage, use CC, etc I have very little healing to do. The fact you think it is a "complete travesty" that healing was changed in this game tells me you rely on it as a crutch.

 

Luckily, this is a single player game, so you can turn the difficulty down until you actually learn how to play.

 

/shrug

Answer me this. 

Do you find yourself in need to run back to a camp every so often to replenish potions, or do you NEVER take damage?

If you answer or lie and not admit to having to restock potions you are a hypocrite.

 

It doesn't matter what level you play on you cannot avoid damage in this game, PERIOD. You can take less damage sure, but you WILL take damage.

This leads the game to sooner or later of you having to fast travel back for potions and then having to run all the way back again.

 

It is FN IDIOTIC as a system. You cannot mitigate ALL the damage via barriers.

 

They should have made it that you still have limitations of potions such as the 8 or 12 with upgrade, but you can LOOT them as you play the game here and there. So you can progress instead of the 2 steps forwards 1 step back.

Second after every fight there should be full auto-regen for your party.

 

Their whole difficulty in this game is 100% centered on your limitations of potions. That is it. Then to hide the fact you in essence have unlimited supply, they make it a NUISANCE and annoyance to have to trek back to camp. Fast travel means nothing since you have to walk all the way back.

 

What the F were they thinking? You make games FUN not a nuisance.

 

There was nothing wrong in previous games. A select few nerdy tactical cam nightmare players complained about the healing/potion system of previous games.

I had FUN playing DA2 combat. Now I play the "potion game".

 

No I do not take excessive damage, I can handle the difficulty. It's the INEVITABLE attrition of potions and needing to go back to get new ones that is so utterly idiotic that I want to hurt kittens.

[Jester]

Answer me this. 

Do you find yourself in need to run back to a camp every so often to replenish potions, or do you NEVER take damage?

If you answer or lie and not admit to having to restock potions you are a hypocrite.

 

Of course I restock potions - I rarely have to go back for it however. Eiher I have enough for doing a certain more difficult quest and then I just fast travel to camp (I have to go back to quest giver usually anyway), or during exploring I just check out where is the next camp I haven't discovered yet, and slowly make my way there. 

 

So far I had to go back to camp before finishing quest like one time (in ~12 hours of gameplay).

In regular fights with 2-4 enemies around my level I usually don't take damage at all. Threat management, AEO, focusing fire on one target, fear/freeze. barrier and guard, tank can use Shield Wall to completely block damage from enemies in front of him...  

Closing Rifts on the other hand usually taxes me to maximum. 

I play on Nightmare with friendly fire on. 

[mav805]

You should save your estus and craft some lifegems (Regeneration Potions). Make great use of barriers and guard to avoid taking damage in the first place. It's highly possible to avoid damage entirely in properly coordinated fights, even on Nightmare.

 

This. Going through the Hinterlands most of the time, I had just as much HP as you got when you are revived. Never bothered going to replenish potions. Then I learned how to use guard and prevent damage altogether. Now I'm in some area fighting enemies double my level on Nightmare, and they can 1 shot you easily if you make a mistake, but it's entirely possible to not take any damage.

 

...also, if you find a Firekeeper's Soul you can upgrade your potions.

[Wizaerd]

Answer me this. 

Do you find yourself in need to run back to a camp every so often to replenish potions, or do you NEVER take damage?

If you answer or lie and not admit to having to restock potions you are a hypocrite.

 

It doesn't matter what level you play on you cannot avoid damage in this game, PERIOD. You can take less damage sure, but you WILL take damage.

This leads the game to sooner or later of you having to fast travel back for potions and then having to run all the way back again.

 

It is FN IDIOTIC as a system. You cannot mitigate ALL the damage via barriers.

 

They should have made it that you still have limitations of potions such as the 8 or 12 with upgrade, but you can LOOT them as you play the game here and there. So you can progress instead of the 2 steps forwards 1 step back.

Second after every fight there should be full auto-regen for your party.

 

Their whole difficulty in this game is 100% centered on your limitations of potions. That is it. Then to hide the fact you in essence have unlimited supply, they make it a NUISANCE and annoyance to have to trek back to camp. Fast travel means nothing since you have to walk all the way back.

 

What the F were they thinking? You make games FUN not a nuisance.

 

There was nothing wrong in previous games. A select few nerdy tactical cam nightmare players complained about the healing/potion system of previous games.

I had FUN playing DA2 combat. Now I play the "potion game".

 

No I do not take excessive damage, I can handle the difficulty. It's the INEVITABLE attrition of potions and needing to go back to get new ones that is so utterly idiotic that I want to hurt kittens.

 

This was an interesting discussion until this post happened...  someone exercising their loudmouth gene.  Everything was civil until...

 

Regardless, it's not a question of NEVER going back to replenish potion stock, it's a question of not having to do so frequently.  If you're going back to camp after every altercation, then you're not mitigating damage very well, and you're not playing smart.  

[cloudblade70]

Sounds like you need to turn the difficulty down.

 

Higher levels of difficulty require actual tactics.  Guard, Barrier, Crowd Control, Combos, Combat Pause, Tac Cam, Kill Order, etc. all reduce your need for health potions.

 

Most players whinging about healing in this game just aren't good at the combat mechanics.  So turn the difficulty down.  Once you figure out what you're doing, turn it back up.

 

Case in point, I run a healer in SW:TOR.  When I wind up with a group of crappy players that have no idea what they're doing I have to work my butt off trying desperately to keep everyone alive.  But when I get a group of good players that follow strategy, know their class, can avoid damage, use CC, etc I have very little healing to do. The fact you think it is a "complete travesty" that healing was changed in this game tells me you rely on it as a crutch.

 

Luckily, this is a single player game, so you can turn the difficulty down until you actually learn how to play.

 

/shrug

 

This is super snarky, but I couldn't have said it better myself. I'm playing on Nightmare on the PC with FF activated, and am loving it. It's easily the *most* involved I've been in with playing strategically compared to both previous DA's. Once you become proficient at managing aggro, guard, and barrier, every fight is like a puzzle to be solved, and it gets easier and easier. Kudos.

[DarthGizka]

The fact you think it is a "complete travesty" that healing was changed in this game tells me you rely on it as a crutch.
 
Luckily, this is a single player game, so you can turn the difficulty down until you actually learn how to play.

 

You might want to work a bit on reading comprehension and a few other skills. The travesty is that the amazing work of large numbers of people over several years gets effectively diminished by a bunch of unnecessary problems that are in people's faces all the time.

With regard to healing it is the fact that they went completely overboard without ensuring that user experience as a whole is not impacted negatively. MetroGlobe has pointed out that the inevitable attrition cannot be remied without undertaking long treks because the game lacks two-way fast travel; that makes the situation similar to loot transport logistics in NWN. Other games complement one-way fast travel with mechanisms like Mark and Recall (as spell, item or single-use scroll) and/or mechanisms like the Mage Express in Morrowind combined with Divine/Almsivi Intervention.

And some attrition is inevitable* in the long run, unless you are playing at a difficulty setting that is too low for your skill, or with too many party members, or with not enough restrictions. That's what made adventuring in DAO so enjoyable - that you could go through the Deep Roads in one single trip, without using a single potion, as long as you managed individual fights well. Because out-of-combat regeneration refilled your 'room for error' window a.k.a. hitpoints. In DAI only tanks are so lucky (building guard).

An example of half-assedness that diminishes enjoyment of the game unnecessarily: my first hero awoke from her three-day post-tutorial slumber in Haven at 2/3 health because she didn't use potions unless it was strictly necessary. Which meant she hadn't used any potions at all during the tutorial. However, several hours later she was still at 2/3 health because it was impossible to use a potion in Haven or to get healing of any kind, and I hadn't discovered the quicksave/reload trick yet. Nor was it possible to build guard (no enemies). After accruing several hundred points of falling damage trying to get a sense for heights she had to halt experiments and adopt more cautious ways of locomotion because the situation was becoming dangerous. Needlessly so.

 

P.S.: the OOC regen situation would be mitigated if we could smoke elf root out of combat, or something similar. That would avoid the DAO problem of bosses being beaten on the strength of big potion stacks. As it is the allowance for 'maximum fsckup' in a single battle is stretched across whole expeditions. That's simply erring on the opposite side of good balance compared to previous games.

 

The simpler solution would be a 'Hold' command that works. Unconditionally. And a camera that left the viewing distance unchanged, instead of constantly messing up by trying to be smart about it.

 

*) if only for the reason that 'Hold' does not work, and companions are prone to incur falling damage when following the hero (and similar things)

[Khevar]

 

The travesty is that the amazing work of large numbers of people over several years gets effectively diminished by a bunch of unnecessary problems that are in people's faces all the time.

 

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

With regard to healing it is the fact that they went completely overboard without ensuring that user experience as a whole is not impacted negatively. MetroGlobe has pointed out that the inevitable attrition cannot be remied without undertaking long treks because the game lacks two-way fast travel;

 

Riddle me this, Batman.  What is stopping you and MetroGlobe from trekking forwards to the next camp to replenish your potions, rather than trekking BACK?

[Vanth]

I am completely fine with the healing side of things. I think making healing potions free and automatically refilling them when you return to camp more than offsets the need for after-battle health regeneration. I am playing on Hard with FF on and I can play for quite a while before needing to refill. Storywise it also makes sense that your characters have to take a break every so often too. I also like how it makes skills like guard more important (though I admit guard took me a while to figure out). 

 

When you head off to a new area, go establish a new camp first so that you don't have to walk too far. 

[Corto81]

Storywise it also makes sense that your characters have to take a break every so often too.

 

Story wise is would make sense for your character not to lay a hand on a dead guy for 3 seconds and revive him.

Story wise and LORE WISE healing magic has always been present in Thedas.

 

My point? Please don't try to defend this mechanic because it fits "story wise".

 

...

 

IMO, they saw a lot of stuff that worked in different RPGs (Dark Souls, Skyrim, etc.) but they failed to see WHY it worked in that game.

 

Estus flasks work in a semi-horror combat-crawler like Dark Souls. And I think they work fine in combat in DA:I.

BUT, and it's a big friggin BUT.

LIMITED ESTUS FLASKS DON'T MIX WELL WITH OPEN WORLD EXPLORATION.

 

I love limited healing in Dark Souls 1 and 2 and Lords of the Fallen etc.

I don't mind it in DA:I.

But like I said, it seriously doesn't mix well with open world exploration.

I mean, seriously. Either idea and concept is fine.

But they don't mix together well. How come noone in BW asked the question of how they mesh together during the whole time they were creating the game.

[DarthGizka]

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

I'm aware of the dictionary definition of 'travesty', and you are right - I should have put the word in inverted commas instead of contributing to language erosion.
 

Riddle me this, Batman.  What is stopping you and MetroGlobe from trekking forwards to the next camp to replenish your potions, rather than trekking BACK?

The point is that we shouldn't have to trek in the first place. One excess is just as bad as the other, except for the fact that DAO's excess gave users a choice and DAI's does not.

 

There's nothing that stops people from doing no-pots runs in DAO. As for DAI, I'm not really interested in a no-pots run (or 'limited-pots) for my first playthrough. Not with such a broken cam married to tac mode, and not with an AI that is so prone to self-injury and party nukage. With 'Hold' nonfunctional we can't even leave the companions at some convenient place to teleport them in when they're needed, as we could in DAO by hitting 'F'.

[Urazz]

I do think bioware went too far by getting rid of almost all healing spells.  It would've been one thing to limit them extremely to not be spammable and all that but I think not having any kind of healing spell really hurt things.  The only potions I've been using are health regen potions and healing potions sadly to combat the need to head back to camp as soon as possible.

[Wizaerd]

There are some contributors to this thread that I keep picturing as chunky babies, holding their breath until they get their way...  Just whining for the sake of whining.  The removal of healing and health regen has boosted the enjoyment of this game significantly.