119 réponses à ce sujet

[Munktor]

You talk about "indicative trend" while ignoring the single most defining one ? Hu ?

Maybe you should think this through a bit again...

 

 

Simple "lowest common denominator" logic here (and I mean, strictly speaking, without bias nor loading the term) : a mouse + kb interface is just not feasible on console, while a controller interface is "just" subpar on PC.

Impossible (in practice, I know there is keyboards and mouse on consoles, it's just too rare to be relevant) vs unefficient, well, unefficient wins.

 

Except mouse and keyboard is very possible on nxtgen consoles.  I play FFXI realm reborn on console with M&KB just like it was on my PC.  The only difference being a 55" bravia vs a 24" ASUS lol.

 

I think you're misconstruing my words to mean I imply PC gaming is obsolete.  I'm not.  Merely illustrating that there has been a clear and obvious trend towards console direction over pure PC direction (like it was in the past).

 

You would NEVER see games of the same caliber on PC and Console at the same time 10 years ago.  Nowadays, it's a known that major AAA releases will exist multi-platform.

 

Why?  Because developers want to make money.  Consoles have been eating up more and more of the market share across varied genre of games over the years.  They used to be relegated to the simplest of action titles, but now it's MMO/RPG/FPS.   Previously all 3 genre were near exclusively on PC from both dev and consumer perspective.

 

The single most defining trend of the market is not a move to more digital sales on PC.  All that really indicates is less and less retailers are stocking/storing PC titles as they assume PC gamers will purchase online.  Which is hilarious to me being when you're done, you have zero trade in value.  It's almost like buying for PC is always a losing proposition these days.

 

Again, i'm a PC gamer and console gamer.  I just don't ascribe to one or the other like so many gamers do.  This allows me to see both sides of the story.

 

Gaming for so many years, it's hard to not notice the shift.  Are you honestly telling me that PC gaming vs Console gaming is in the same state it was 10 years ago with PC heavily dominating the majority of the market?

 

You're delusional if so.

 

With all of that said, that's why the game seems to be optimized for console gamers over PC gamers.  Have you seen a bunch of griping on this board from PS4 and X1 peeps?  No.  Have you from PC folks?  Yes.  

 

Why?  Because again, console was at the forefront of their thought process, not PC...again, not happy about that.  Just realistic.

[Skeevley]

 

Thankfully, I believe, they are, as we speak, working to improve the kb + m functionality.

 

Really, could you please point me to the thread where someone from Bioware says this? Otherwise my plan is to request a refund just before my 24 hours are up.

[AlanC9]

It is not just the control, it is the entire combat approach. I don't like action RPG's because I don't like/am not very good about running around the screen chasing things. The screwed up controls and the general combat issues mutually re-enforce each other and it is really frustrating.

I'm starting to wonder if the real problem is that Bio does like action RPGs.

[RedLens37]

Thanks for the well-reasoned, tempered post OP. It's a nice change from all the knee-jerk, head-exploding, BIOWAREYOUSUCKGODIEINAFIRE reaction we've seen here. While I'll be playing DAI on console and won't be able to directly empathize with your sentiment, I am sorry that the game isn't all that you expected it to be on your platform, and hopefully Bioware will be able to do some patch work on the controls.

[Akka le Vil]

Except mouse and keyboard is very possible on nxtgen consoles.  I play FFXI realm reborn on console with M&KB just like it was on my PC.  The only difference being a 55" bravia vs a 24" ASUS lol.

It's funny because plugging (several) TV screen on your PC is even easier and much more common, and I'm typing this on a 55'' Samsung, lol.

Nevertheless, I specifically pointed that console could use keyboard but it's very rare (MAYBE IT'S WHY NEARLY ALL THE CONSOLE UI ARE MADE FOR CONTROLLER, WHAT A COINCIDENCE !), so either you didn't bother to read or you're just pointlessly contrarian.

The single most defining trend of the market is not a move to more digital sales on PC.  All that really indicates is less and less retailers are stocking/storing PC titles as they assume PC gamers will purchase online.  Which is hilarious to me being when you're done, you have zero trade in value.  It's almost like buying for PC is always a losing proposition these days.

The first sentence is wrong, as yes going digital is the single most important market trend these recent years.

For the rest, I honestly couldn't make out what your point is. Could you reformulate it ?

Why?  Because again, console was at the forefront of their thought process, not PC...again, not happy about that.  Just realistic.

We are all kinda aware about that. That's actually the entire point we're bitching about.

[Peer of the Empire]

Except mouse and keyboard is very possible on nxtgen consoles.  I play FFXI realm reborn on console with M&KB just like it was on my PC.  The only difference being a 55" bravia vs a 24" ASUS lol.

 

(etc)

 

Obviously consoles are taking over.  That is not a good thing

 

Keyboard mouse is vastly superior for most things.  We can just get a controller or steering wheel if we really want for certain games.

 

If kb+m were ubiquitous on consoles FPS would be a lot more competitive, and Microsoft for example could return to the idea of connecting PC and Xbox multiplayer

[Munktor]

It's funny because plugging (several) TV screen on your PC is even easier and much more common, and I'm typing this on a 55'' Samsung, lol.

Nevertheless, I specifically pointed that console could use keyboard but it's very rare (MAYBE IT'S WHY NEARLY ALL THE CONSOLE UI ARE MADE FOR CONTROLLER, WHAT A COINCIDENCE !), so either you didn't bother to read or you're just pointlessly contrarian.

 

 

The first sentence is wrong, as yes going digital is the single most important market trend these recent years.

For the rest, I honestly couldn't make out what your point is. Could you reformulate it ?

 

 

We are all kinda aware about that. That's actually the entire point we're bitching about.

 

Trust, not implying you can't use a PC on your TV.  Just illustrating the ONLY difference between my play experience of FFXI on the PC vs the console was the manner in which I viewed the game.

 

I don't see digital sales as a positive trend for the PC.  I see that as the resale marketing declining for a product.  I.E. I buy on console, I experience the game, enjoy the game, return the game, then get credit towards a new game.  If you're smart about it, you can actually play games for half-off consistently.  When I buy a PC game, I play the game and that's it.  To me, that's a very NEGATIVE trend for gaming, not positive.  If that's a positive for you (wasting money) ok, but trust me, the secondary markets view it as lower overall consumer demand.  A console game gets bought more than once. A PC game has one sales cycle.  

 

I am not trying to be contrarian (which isn't even really a word).  I'm simply adding my 2 cents as someone that has been a long-time Bioware fan, and a long time gamer.  I've watched this shift in design elements happen over the years.  It isn't surprising to me at all.  Before DA:I released I could tell you the PC experience would be slightly better glitz and glamour but mechanically poorly optimized overall.

 

Low and behold, that's the situation.  Now people are asking "Why?"

 

My answer is simple.  The console market has the developers eyes.  PC market will continue to exist and "worst comes to worst" if enough people keep griping about PC releases, they aren't going to "stop" being gamers.  They're just going to buy a PS4.  The PC gamer has zero recourse at this point.  You either continue to buy software digitally without the possibility of a return on your purchase and understand products will not be optimized for you.  Or you buy a console and lose some FPS for a better optimized experience.

 

Either way, the developers do not care.  Either way, you're not going to stop gaming.  Either way, you purchase their product on one of the platforms it's available.

 

In conclusion, i'm not saying one is better than the other.  Just illustrating how the trends are indicative of a higher focus on the console market than pc these days.

 

If you disagree, I respect that...but my question to you would be...why are so many PC gamers upset with this title and console gamers not? 

[Peer of the Empire]

You don't need to write walls of text to point out the obvious

[AlanC9]

I don't see digital sales as a positive trend for the PC. I see that as the resale marketing declining for a product. I.E. I buy on console, I experience the game, enjoy the game, return the game, then get credit towards a new game. If you're smart about it, you can actually play games for half-off consistently. When I buy a PC game, I play the game and that's it. To me, that's a very NEGATIVE trend for gaming, not positive. If that's a positive for you (wasting money) ok, but trust me, the secondary markets view it as lower overall consumer demand. A console game gets bought more than once. A PC game has one sales cycle.

I don't see the problem with only having one sales cycle. The devs don't get money from the secondary markets anyway, so this won't reduce development.

I also don't think the economics for players are all that different. I hardly miss used PC games when I see older AAA titles with list prices cut to $20 become part of a 75% off Steam sale.

[Akka le Vil]

I don't see digital sales as a positive trend for the PC.  I see that as the resale marketing declining for a product.  I.E. I buy on console, I experience the game, enjoy the game, return the game, then get credit towards a new game.  If you're smart about it, you can actually play games for half-off consistently.  When I buy a PC game, I play the game and that's it.  To me, that's a very NEGATIVE trend for gaming, not positive.  If that's a positive for you (wasting money) ok, but trust me, the secondary markets view it as lower overall consumer demand.  A console game gets bought more than once. A PC game has one sales cycle.

Ah, so you were talking about re-sale. As I don't ever re-sale games (I don't play games only once, and one of my main beef with DRM is precisely that they seriously threaten the ability to keep your games forever), it's not a negative for me, but I see your point.

 

That being said, as your argument is about money, your miss one crucial element : digital migration tends to involve cheaper games (quite cheaper at release already, and MASSIVELY cheaper when digital retailers make seasonal sales). Also, some laws make it illegal to no allow re-sales.

It's more a problem about DRM than PC and console, strictly speaking - X-Box One is a console, and it was aiming for a completely locked system, and only the competitive pressure of the PS4 made Microsoft backpedal for now. Though yes, for now it's one of the very few shortcoming that is mainly on the PC side.

I am not trying to be contrarian (which isn't even really a word).

Yes it is. You're on the Internet, you've no excuse to make such claim without taking five seconds to check them first

I'm simply adding my 2 cents as someone that has been a long-time Bioware fan, and a long time gamer.  I've watched this shift in design elements happen over the years.  It isn't surprising to me at all.  Before DA:I released I could tell you the PC experience would be slightly better glitz and glamour but mechanically poorly optimized overall.

 

Low and behold, that's the situation.  Now people are asking "Why?"

 

My answer is simple.  The console market has the developers eyes.  PC market will continue to exist and "worst comes to worst" if enough people keep griping about PC releases, they aren't going to "stop" being gamers.  They're just going to buy a PS4.  The PC gamer has zero recourse at this point.  You either continue to buy software digitally without the possibility of a return on your purchase and understand products will not be optimized for you.  Or you buy a console and lose some FPS for a better optimized experience.

 

Either way, the developers do not care.  Either way, you're not going to stop gaming.  Either way, you purchase their product on one of the platforms it's available.

 

In conclusion, i'm not saying one is better than the other.  Just illustrating how the trends are indicative of a higher focus on the console market than pc these days.

 

If you disagree, I respect that...but my question to you would be...why are so many PC gamers upset with this title and console gamers not?

Let me repeat what I said above : we're aware of that, that's precisely the point we're complaining about (that they couldn't even bother to make a decent PC version despite promising they would do).

You seem to not differenciate between complaining about situation and understanding a situation. If someone steal my wallet, I'm going to be pretty pissed, but I clearly know why he's doing it. Doesn't mean I have to ACCEPT it (and, really, I shouldn't).

[Munktor]

I thought the focus of this thread is the question "why" is it clearly being optimized for X over Y.

 

I was providing my reasoning based on my experience as a consumer and watching the market change over the years.

[Akka le Vil]

I thought the focus of this thread is the question "why" is it clearly being optimized for X over Y.

 

I was providing my reasoning based on my experience as a consumer and watching the market change over the years.

No, the focus is on Bioware dishonesty : it was purposedly deceitful by making claims that were tailored to make people think the PC version was given a lot of thought, while it ended being a terrible port.

 

You didn't even bother to read the OP, right ?

[Munktor]

No, the focus is on Bioware dishonesty : it was purposedly deceitful by making claims that were tailored to make people think the PC version was given a lot of thought, while it ended being a terrible port.

 

You didn't even bother to read the OP, right ?

 

I read the OP.  

 

You seem to be very off-put by this all.  I apologize for voicing my opinion on the subject lol.

[Akka le Vil]

I read the OP.  

 

You seem to be very off-put by this all.  I apologize for voicing my opinion on the subject lol.

Well, if you read the OP, then how could you misread "don't be dishonest, Bioware" with "I don't understand why the game's interface is oriented toward" console ?

There is no problem to voice an opinion, but it seems you manage to miss the points rather often.

[Munktor]

Didn't miss the point.  I read the entire thread, the discussion changed from something as mindlessly dumb as "they lied" to "direction of the market"

[pasmith31]

They clearly havent, I mean look at how tiny the wor....nvm
Look at how bad the ending i....nvm
umm....look at the lack of tactica.....nvm


Point is, they damn well listened. Expecting perfection out of the gate is stupidity, because it almost never happens. Lucky for you, almost ALL of the PC issues tend to be fixed via patches or mods. Try to enjoy the game for what it is, don't hate on something because you dislike the control scheme. Its annoying yes, but it cant seriously destroy the game :T

Poor controls can't destroy the game? do you really believe that statement? I mean think about it a bit more, this game is what 100 to 150 hours and during that time I am required to do a number of things that I find annoying and tedious every minute or two. Looting is a nightmare to me and to top it off in DAI with the crafting system I have to do it more than ever.

 

How many people would sit and watch a movie if they had to spam the play key on the remote a few times a second during combat and outside of the combat scenes replace it with the "v" key. If I could drive my PC with the mouse it might not be so bad at least one hand would be free for hotkeys as it is now I have both hands in use all the time, for mouse look and movement.

 

A great game the type I'll play more than once and buy DLC for, won't be a game I struggle playing for more than a few hours at a time before I quit in frustration. Only to rinse and repeat with each session getting shorter. Hell I'm even having a hard time forcing myself to give it another chance this morning which is also frustrating as I really want to like the game.

[Brogan]

Yup.  Control scheme is rather critical to a game's success.

[Gaylonn]

I think we can all agree that the PC controls out of the box for DA:I are lacking.   But geez they are nowhere near as bad as some of these threads are suggesting.  Mountains out of molehills IMO. 

 

I ended up choosing to play with controller on my PC because for me it was better.......but if I could not or did not have a controller I would be playing just fine with keyboard/mouse with some remapping, etc.   Its just not as horrible as people claim. 

 

Now the minimal tactics/behaviors to me is perhaps where DA:I really dropped the ball.  Ive been able to make it work for me decently but its really a pretty badly designed system.  This is the one area where I agree that Bioware mislead when advertising.

[Rico01]

I've now played 3 hours and good golly... I have absolutely no problems with the controls! In fact, I play it pretty much just like DA2. I'm left handed so to me its pretty standard to change the key layout to exactly suit my needs regardless of game. First, I change movement to arrow keys, and any "Ctrl" or "Shift" or "Alt" commands to the right side. And switching the "interact" button to "Enter". Sorry to say, I simply do not understand all the angst against the controls.

 

I'll give you this though, the tac cam is useless. I almost never use it. Does it make this game unplayable and sucky? No, not for me.

 

I'm sorry if others have a problem with the control schemes.

 

Now excuse me while I go back into the game.

[joejccva71]

FYI joejccva71 Article in Forbes you should read. http://www.forbes.co...-keep-fighting/

 

I must be blind or stupid then cause I just read that article AND looked at the VG chartz page and it showed in ALL categories that the not only the console hardware sales but also the games blew away the PC hardware and game sales by a landslide.  I'm looking at the charts right now.

 

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong pages?  It says it right here in black and white.

[Munktor]

I must be blind or stupid then cause I just read that article AND looked at the VG chartz page and it showed in ALL categories that the not only the console hardware sales but also the games blew away the PC hardware and game sales by a landslide.  I'm looking at the charts right now.

 

Maybe I'm looking at the wrong pages?  It says it right here in black and white.

 

It's all getting very muddled as "revenue" is being lumped into one large category without differentiating genre of game.

 

We may as well begin analyzing the smartphone gaming (mobile gaming) market as a competitor to console and PC gaming.  

[Bundin]

No, the focus is on Bioware dishonesty : it was purposedly deceitful by making claims that were tailored to make people think the PC version was given a lot of thought, while it ended being a terrible port.

 

You didn't even bother to read the OP, right ?

I don't think Bioware was purposefully dishonest. My guess is that they've been working on this program for ages, played and tested the game from early alpha to the last release candidate and got comfortable with their way of playing. And that obviously was a controller, hooked up to something. Doesn't matter if it's a PC or a console, once you attach a controller to a pc, you'll get a similar experience.

 

This should have been caught in the playtesting and QA departments though, where every last bit of the UI/UX should have been thoroughly tested. And then the internal beta, where people that are familiar with DAO and DA2 on pc with k&m, should have made themselves heard.

 

Bioware failed to manage our expectations. By stating that the pc was the lead platform, people expect certain things. And proper m&k centered camera and control systems, as well as an optimised UI are not unreasonable. Community management is to a large extent expectation management. They failed pre-launch, now let's see what happens post-launch and pre-patch.

 

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out, communication wise. The ball is in their court and I don't think they can wait until after the weekend with an announcement/summary of what issues are identified and what will (more importantly: what will NOT) be addressed in the next month.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

No one is denying consoles sell more games, for the mass market it requires no effort on the end user that is to be expected. The argument however is that Bioware made it a point to stress that the PC version would not be an afterthought, that the controls and mechanics were designed to be PC friendly AS WELL AS consoles - judging from the experience and feedback this was a lie, it seems pretty obvious it was designed purely for a controller. You cant expect your audience to play two preceding games one way, then have no option but to play the 3rd in the opposite, especially after reassuring them you wouldn't have to. (This is to those who say play with controller)

Exactly this. I can't use a controller if my life depended on it. And I shouldn't have to

[xvader]

Update peeps.

 

I plugged in the PS4 controller after say 8-10 hours in. Here are my initial observations: movement is just sooooooooo much better. Feels much more natural with the thumbsticks. Tac Cam is sooooooooo much better. By far. Combat feels more natural, probably due to the movement feeling smoother.

 

The one are where kb + m still feel much better for me is in the menu navigation department. For me, menu's simply navigate better with KB + M rather than the gamepad.

 

Does the menu navigation outweighs the movement, combat, tac cam and general "feel" provided by the gamepad? Hell no. It's the other way around.So I'll have to live with the gamepad navigation. I feel better now, but would switch, to a KB + M, setup in a heartbeat provided they add / fix what needs to be added / fixed for a proper KB + M experience.

 

It's just preference. While I am enjoying it a bit more now with the controller I still prefer and want the M + KB setup fixed. No excuse for the current state of KB + M controls and lack of customization options. If this is with "PC as lead platform" can't fathom if consoles were lead platform. heh.

 

Redlens37 - Thanks.

 

Skeevley - Check the twitter thread in the front page of the forums. I believe its there.

[xvader]

Exactly this. I can't use a controller if my life depended on it. And I shouldn't have to

 

. Nothing but empathy for you friend and the other fans in your exact same position.  Completely agree that you shouldn't have to.

I'll use the controller for now until they fix it since I don't wan't to keep dimishing my gaming experience with an otherwise great game more than it already has.