19127 réponses à ce sujet

[Vash654]

Would "BioWare Hate Forum" be more accurate? Because that's what this is really about. According to some people in this thread, Inquisition was the last straw. BioWare has burned them far too many times now. So I honestly don't know what some of you are expecting from future patches. Do you want to salvage what you can from Inquisition so it's not a total loss? I suspect that if BioWare completely overhauled the game and made it the best PC game ever, it would still be "too little too late".

I think that I could actually enjoy the game if some of these issues with the pc controls were addressed.

[AlyssaFaden]

<snip>
This from a member of the "console generation".

I'm so proud.

 

Good on him.

 

Your EA exception: yes, me, too. In fact if the name EA is tagged onto anything, I pretty much walk away. ONLY Bioware's name stopped me doing that.

 

That said ...

 

You preordered: tsk, tsk.

 

I've been stung a few times across different companies, and unless I am knowingly backing a fledgling company on Greenlight or something, I'm just not going to do it. The bigger the company, the less likely I am to preorder. It seems to me that they cut content out to give pre-order incentives, and then dump buggy crap on your lap and rush to fix it after the fact.

 

The last game that got me like this was Rome: Total War, and I will never pre-order a game again from all bar one company: Bethesda (which will probably get me stoned to death, but I've honestly had no issues with their titles way back to the early days. Um ... wait ... Morrowind and Daggerfall, yeah, they were some buggy masterpieces).

 

I didn't pre-order this one either and I waited, and I read the reviews, and I watched the forums. For me the game is working out (I *AM* stumbling over bugs on a daily session), but my word no company will catch me with that B/S pre-ordering nonsense or "season passes." Don't get me started on "Season Passes."

[SSV Enterprise]

And Bioware is your Developer of the year?
Your loyalties are very clear. The name of this topic is "PC Community Concerns", not "Bioware Apologist Forum"

Nintendo might rather be my dev of the year. But forgive me for having some concerns about DAI on PC while still enjoying it immensely.

[Jackal19851111]

NEEEEED to walk. It's been a month now.

 

Hell even in Divinity you can walk and it's a top-down RPG FFS!

[CatatonicMan]

According to some people in this thread, Inquisition was the last straw. BioWare has burned them far too many times now.

To be fair, those who decided to give up on Bioware after previous games probably aren't hanging around here.

[AlyssaFaden]

Dont know why some people defend this low skill team.of game programmers  Thy have what deserved.

 

Smart and intelligent people learn from own mistakes. So...

 

It's not fair to blame the programmers. I get it, I really do, but it also shows a nativity of software development and the entire team behind this title (yes, I am working at a software company, and yes, I should probably be working and not posting )

 

The programmers are assigned their tasks.

The programmers are given x-amount of time to get it done.

A team lead may well play a part in how it is implemented.

A Technical director may well play a role in influences HOW it is done.

A Production direction will say how quickly it has to be done ... even if that's an unreasonable target.

 

Every programmer, every team, every team lead, will have different skill levels and accuracy; everything rolls up to a QC team/process.

Bugs will be searched for, tracked, and then a team will sit down and prioritize which of those - if found - will get fixed.

While the production director influences what won't get worked on due to time/budget concerns.

 

All of the time a deep management team will be heavily influencing timeline.

 

A design team (User experience) came up with the menus, options available, and dictated how things would work: "you click this, that happens," "on this menu are options X, Y, and Z"

 

So at the end of the day, the programmer is but one piece of a large and complex web: he/she is told what to program, when, and how it will work.

 

You're blaming the guy who wrote the line of code, but not the people who told him how to write it, the fact that he didn't have enough time to write it, the manager who changed his mind half way through, the UX designer who made the decision on the WASD keys, the QC team who missed the bugs, or the team who prioritized what would be fixed and what wouldn't.

 

At the end of the day - with game development - typically the programmers are the last people to blame.

[Jackal19851111]

To be fair, those who decided to give up on Bioware after previous games probably aren't hanging around here.

 

I've been with Bioware for 16 years, still hanging around

[Ncongruous]

Yeah. I get that people this is a thread for venting and that some people are frustrated with how the game turned out to be, but some people really should go to a dictionary and read the definition of "impartial". Or "overreacting".

Hyperbole is my milieu and you can only have it if you steal it from my cold dead hands... People overreact all the time. I'm sure we all have something that just agitates us to the right amount and then watch out. They know, we know, everyone knows they are exaggerating when they are speaking hopefully. We do it for pleasure or showmanship. And exaggerating online seems much easier. Still... and I know I've said this almost as many times as I've posted, I'm surprised so many people are civil about their issues. Not that I think we're animals prone to rioting and loss of rationalization. But there are people suffering issues as a result of fixing something and yet there's... just this air to fill. All this air with no guiding voice of reassurance to sway opinion or direction. It's Sisyphean posting here. So I say - Rock on exaggeration if it achieves a bit of catharsis in lieu of an unplayable game.
 

Nintendo might rather be my dev of the year. But forgive me for having some concerns about DAI on PC while still enjoying it immensely.

[CatatonicMan]

The last game that got me like this was Rome: Total War, and I will never pre-order a game again from all bar one company: Bethesda (which will probably get me stoned to death, but I've honestly had no issues with their titles way back to the early days. Um ... wait ... Morrowind and Daggerfall, yeah, they were some buggy masterpieces).

The one thing that can be said about Bethesda is that they've at least been consistent. You can pretty much expect a massive, buggy game with poor UI.

They've also been consistent with their support of modding, which nets them quite a few points. Even if their games are buggy and never officially fixed, we still have modders to pick up the slack.

[DisturbedJim83]

It's not fair to blame the programmers. I get it, I really do, but it also shows a nativity of software development and the entire team behind this title (yes, I am working at a software company, and yes, I should probably be working and not posting )

 

The programmers are assigned their tasks.

The programmers are given x-amount of time to get it done.

A team lead may well play a part in how it is implemented.

A Technical director may well play a role in influences HOW it is done.

A Production direction will say how quickly it has to be done ... even if that's an unreasonable target.

 

Every programmer, every team, every team lead, will have different skill levels and accuracy; everything rolls up to a QC team/process.

Bugs will be searched for, tracked, and then a team will sit down and prioritize which of those - if found - will get fixed.

While the production director influences what won't get worked on due to time/budget concerns.

 

All of the time a deep management team will be heavily influencing timeline.

 

A design team (User experience) came up with the menus, options available, and dictated how things would work: "you click this, that happens," "on this menu are options X, Y, and Z"

 

So at the end of the day, the programmer is but one piece of a large and complex web: he/she is told what to program, when, and how it will work.

 

You're blaming the guy who wrote the line of code, but not the people who told him how to write it, the fact that he didn't have enough time to write it, the manager who changed his mind half way through, the UX designer who made the decision on the WASD keys, the QC team who missed the bugs, or the team who prioritized what would be fixed and what wouldn't.

 

At the end of the day - with game development - typically the programmers are the last people to blame.

I Blame all of them equally for this mess especially those who appeared in that video claiming that "the UI was specifically designed for PC" they are guilty a thousand times over for appearing in that video spouting B.S like they did.

[Bethgael]

Good on him.

 

Your EA exception: yes, me, too. In fact if the name EA is tagged onto anything, I pretty much walk away. ONLY Bioware's name stopped me doing that.

 

That said ...

 

You preordered: tsk, tsk.

 

I've been stung a few times across different companies, and unless I am knowingly backing a fledgling company on Greenlight or something, I'm just not going to do it. The bigger the company, the less likely I am to preorder. It seems to me that they cut content out to give pre-order incentives, and then dump buggy crap on your lap and rush to fix it after the fact.

 

The last game that got me like this was Rome: Total War, and I will never pre-order a game again from all bar one company: Bethesda (which will probably get me stoned to death, but I've honestly had no issues with their titles way back to the early days. Um ... wait ... Morrowind and Daggerfall, yeah, they were some buggy masterpieces).

 

I didn't pre-order this one either and I waited, and I read the reviews, and I watched the forums. For me the game is working out (I *AM* stumbling over bugs on a daily session), but my word no company will catch me with that B/S pre-ordering nonsense or "season passes." Don't get me started on "Season Passes."

 

Yes. First pre-order in 30 years. I even waited until 2 weeks before release to do so, thinking, "ah, just this once. It's Bioware, my expectations re story/bugs/what they'll do with Alistair/Warden/etc/buggy Keep issues/imports/ remember DA2!/etc are managed, how bad could it be?"

I said further up the thread they "got" me with the only thing I didn't expect. Wowsers. That's actually almost impressive. I am the world's worst cynic with just about everything. They surprised me with screwing up the controls, for goodness' sake. On a PC game. From a company known for being good at PC controlled games, in a franchise in which I've never had an issue with KB&M, with a game in which all of their marketing said "by PC users for PC users, developed on PC.... DA2-like combat with Origins-style story" I have to give them some props for that, because mea culpa.
 

[ironhorse384]

It's not fair to blame the programmers. I get it, I really do, but it also shows a nativity of software development and the entire team behind this title (yes, I am working at a software company, and yes, I should probably be working and not posting )

 

The programmers are assigned their tasks.

The programmers are given x-amount of time to get it done.

A team lead may well play a part in how it is implemented.

A Technical director may well play a role in influences HOW it is done.

A Production direction will say how quickly it has to be done ... even if that's an unreasonable target.

 

Every programmer, every team, every team lead, will have different skill levels and accuracy; everything rolls up to a QC team/process.

Bugs will be searched for, tracked, and then a team will sit down and prioritize which of those - if found - will get fixed.

While the production director influences what won't get worked on due to time/budget concerns.

 

All of the time a deep management team will be heavily influencing timeline.

 

A design team (User experience) came up with the menus, options available, and dictated how things would work: "you click this, that happens," "on this menu are options X, Y, and Z"

 

So at the end of the day, the programmer is but one piece of a large and complex web: he/she is told what to program, when, and how it will work.

 

You're blaming the guy who wrote the line of code, but not the people who told him how to write it, the fact that he didn't have enough time to write it, the manager who changed his mind half way through, the UX designer who made the decision on the WASD keys, the QC team who missed the bugs, or the team who prioritized what would be fixed and what wouldn't.

 

At the end of the day - with game development - typically the programmers are the last people to blame.

Do you think that part of the problem is that they spread themselves thin over too many platforms?

[AlyssaFaden]

I Blame all of them equally for this mess especially those who appeared in that video claiming that "the UI was specifically designed for PC" they are guilty a thousand times over for appearing in that video spouting B.S like they did.

 

Ah, that's where we differ. If I were to be the type to throw "blame" at someone - and I rarely am - I tend to apportion it according to who made the decisions, and typically for that you have to start looking higher up the food chain. Then the people who spread the misinformation (although at the time of them spreading it, they honestly may not have known),

 

By the time you hack your way down the pecking order, the guy who writes the code or the guy who created an armor mesh, these are the guys who should shoulder the least blame.

 

They're also the first to get laid off after a big title is released.

 

Management man, every time. And that comes from someone who is management. And, yeah, I try my damnedest to try and avoid the development teams being put in a position where they just can't succeed through my (or other's) decisions.

[AlyssaFaden]

Do you think that part of the problem is that they spread themselves thin over too many platforms?

 

I'd be guessing; having no firsthand knowledge of how they approached this project, the resources available, how it was managed, the decisions from EA (oh yes, they had influence here), then anything I or anyone else says would be completely made up (unless they were there, of course).

 

I would anticipate that developing for multiple platforms - for an AAA house - would be a "walk in the park," and would not be the cause of issues.

 

Typically too little time to get the job done, is. Management interference (including stopping production and deciding to go another way, and all of the horror stories we here from other titles) only exasperates that "lack of time."

 

This can further be complicated when the people with the money push for quick deliveries: bugs get surfaced, management decides not to fix them in order to meet deadlines, etc.

[CatatonicMan]

Do you think that part of the problem is that they spread themselves thin over too many platforms?

Possibly, but it smells more of a "designed for the lowest common denominator" problem.

[ironhorse384]

 

Management man, every time. And that comes from someone who is management. And, yeah, I try my damnedest to try and avoid the development teams being put in a position where they just can't succeed through my (or other's) decisions.

Executive bonus will make people do some pretty shady things. You have to think that if the game were delayed due to technical difficulties that performance bonuses would be cut or reduced so there's definitely an incentive to release on time.

[ironhorse384]

I'd be guessing; having no firsthand knowledge of how they approached this project, the resources available, how it was managed, the decisions from EA (oh yes, they had influence here), then anything I or anyone else says would be completely made up (unless they were there, of course).

 

I would anticipate that developing for multiple platforms - for an AAA house - would be a "walk in the park," and would not be the cause of issues.

 

Typically too little time to get the job done, is. Management interference (including stopping production and deciding to go another way, and all of the horror stories we here from other titles) only exasperates that "lack of time."

 

This can further be complicated when the people with the money push for quick deliveries: bugs get surfaced, management decides not to fix them in order to meet deadlines, etc.

micromanagement seems to be the name of the game in this day and age. It's perfect too because you can always blame the people below you for your own incompetence. I've seen enough of the professional buck passers to last me a lifetime. All big and tough when it comes to threatening someone's job but not having the stones to own up to their own bad decisions.

[AlyssaFaden]

Executive bonus will make people do some pretty shady things. You have to think that if the game were delayed due to technical difficulties that performance bonuses would be cut or reduced so there's definitely an incentive to release on time.

 

And on big releases - years of development, multi-millions of funding, teams of hundreds spread all over the world ... things become surreal. Decisions aren't made in your cubicle, or your office, or even your building. Decisions - decisions that can completely turn a timeline on its head or put hundreds of programmers and designers under impossible timelines - are made in other countries, or offices with little contact with your own. Ironically today I watched a multi-million development get "turned off" from an executive decision of someone who just appeared on the scene a couple of months ago. Years of work spanning the entire world ... turned off, just like that.

 

Modern AAA game development sits with the publishing house, and they jump to stock prices and shareholders. They will put game companies under enormous pressure to hit deadlines that were decided before the game had even been designed. "You have x-dollars, x-years: make it awesome. We reserve the right to interfere at any time. The deadline doesn't shift if we do."
 

[AlyssaFaden]

Possibly, but it smells more of a "designed for the lowest common denominator" problem.

 

Without a doubt. It has plagued countless titles recently. This may be a pain point in our current era of game development, and something to be worked through. Even the big houses are trying to figure out the optimal way to design for multiple platforms and thus: audiences. But when everything is really about the $$$ ,,, and it is, at the end of the day ... the need to cover all platforms will remain.

 

And thus so too will a standardized interface, porting from one platform to another, a console user-experience designer will design an interface for a PC, and so on.

 

I hope there's a solution to this in the future, but at the moment I only see worse and worse user-interfaces.

[ironhorse384]

And on big releases - years of development, multi-millions of funding, teams of hundreds spread all over the world ... things become surreal. Decisions aren't made in your cubicle, or your office, or even your building. Decisions - decisions that can completely turn a timeline on its head or put hundreds of programmers and designers under impossible timelines - are made in other countries, or offices with little contact with your own. Ironically today I watched a multi-million development get "turned off" from an executive decision of someone who just appeared on the scene a couple of months ago. Years of work spanning the entire world ... turned off, just like that.

 

Modern AAA game development sits with the publishing house, and they jump to stock prices and shareholders. They will put game companies under enormous pressure to hit deadlines that were decided before the game had even been designed. "You have x-dollars, x-years: make it awesome. We reserve the right to interfere at any time. The deadline doesn't shift if we do."
 

I don't think that having deadlines is necessarily a bad thing as long as you temper that with realistic expectations.

[AlyssaFaden]

I don't think that having deadlines is necessarily a bad thing as long as you temper that with realistic expectations.

 

Oh, completely agreed. In fact NOT having deadlines is a TERRIBLE thing; I've watched a few projects spiral out of control, because no timeline or budget was put into place, or a project manager/production director didn't have firm hands on the rails. Heck, I've been a programmer that caused that very problem back around 2002! lol. I had no one watching me, so I did what I wanted: what I developed kicked ass, but it was 1/10th of the overall project and I'd run out of time and money! uhoh!

 

So, yeah, you absolutely need a good timeframe and budget management, without a doubt. But there is - and should be - a balance. In 99.99% of the projects I have seen, almost all of them are too tight for the programmers to work within, but then I think programmers will always want a little more. That said, you only have to be slightly disconnected from the development teams, only interfere a little, and you turn that fine balance upside down. Now you have a problem on your hands, and there's only so much overtime an individual can do before it actually become counter productive.

[Jackal19851111]

Yes. First pre-order in 30 years. I even waited until 2 weeks before release to do so, thinking, "ah, just this once. It's Bioware, my expectations re story/bugs/what they'll do with Alistair/Warden/etc/buggy Keep issues/imports/ remember DA2!/etc are managed, how bad could it be?"

I said further up the thread they "got" me with the only thing I didn't expect. Wowsers. That's actually almost impressive. I am the world's worst cynic with just about everything. They surprised me with screwing up the controls, for goodness' sake. On a PC game. From a company known for being good at PC controlled games, in a franchise in which I've never had an issue with KB&M, with a game in which all of their marketing said "by PC users for PC users, developed on PC.... DA2-like combat with Origins-style story" I have to give them some props for that, because mea culpa.
 

 

Same, I don't know how any PC player would have seen this coming.

 

Though looking back there were plenty of hints; like every single promotional video Bioware made - they were all using controllers - except for that one PC marketing video. Either way, I have my guard up now for future Bioware releases. I thought they were over their console favoritism that began with JE but I guess not.

[Jackal19851111]

micromanagement seems to be the name of the game in this day and age. It's perfect too because you can always blame the people below you for your own incompetence. I've seen enough of the professional buck passers to last me a lifetime. All big and tough when it comes to threatening someone's job but not having the stones to own up to their own bad decisions.

 

Hence why I've flattened the management structure of my business. Hierachy encourages too much incompetence from management.

[ironhorse384]

Oh, completely agreed. In fact NOT having deadlines is a TERRIBLE thing; I've watched a few projects spiral out of control, because no timeline or budget was put into place, or a project manager/production director didn't have firm hands on the rails. Heck, I've been a programmer that caused that very problem back around 2002! lol. I had no one watching me, so I did what I wanted: what I developed kicked ass, but it was 1/10th of the overall project and I'd run out of time and money! uhoh!

 

So, yeah, you absolutely need a good timeframe and budget management, without a doubt. But there is - and should be - a balance. In 99.99% of the projects I have seen, almost all of them are too tight for the programmers to work within, but then I think programmers will always want a little more. That said, you only have to be slightly disconnected from the development teams, only interfere a little, and you turn that fine balance upside down. Now you have a problem on your hands, and there's only so much overtime an individual can do before it actually become counter productive.

What are your thoughts on the kickstarter program? I purchased Wasteland 2 early access on steam and since the full version was released in Sept there have been five major patches. They seem to be working really hard at supporting the game and fixing the bugs but it is for the pc only.

[ironhorse384]

Hence why I've flattened the management structure of my business. Hierachy encourages too much incompetence from management.

Yes, it seems to be a layers game. The more insulation you have the stronger your position will be.