19127 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylveria_Relden]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

 

Because consoles.

 

People can continue to regurgitate the same arguments over and over and eventually your circular argument will come right back to this time and time again. Anything's possible. But not everything is probable.

 

Very simply put, Bioware/EA isn't planning on "fixing" PC issues because they simply don't see it to be a problem for them. Their focus will remain on making content "better" for the new UI they've developed using the Frostbite engine, and they will not spend development time re-coding the entire thing for PC because they simply don't care. I'm disappointed, because I would have expected better from a company like EA/Bioware, but as the saying goes... "Fool me once..."

 

They hard-coded the controls for "controllers" instead of mice and keyboards- or what would have been wiser was to add a control interface layer they could have developed separate interfaces for hardware instead of direct hardware interface. (think "translator") Does programming direct hardware commands improve response times? Probably. Does it mean you likely need to take the extra step in developing a separate control interface for each platform? Probably. Did they do that this time around? Absolutely not. It's pretty evident that they can't "fix" it because to do so means re-writing the base code which they're just not going to do. (In fact, I'd be willing to lay money if someone took time to reverse engineer the game they'd see exactly what I'm referring to.)

 

All this said- Is EA/Bioware going to continue to simply ignore their customers who paid for a product that was misrepresented? Probably.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

And they need people who tell them what is still missing. Not only bug fixes are expected but mechanics changes too. At least on PC. Not having autoattack was not a bug and there is a lot of issue with tac cam. None of them are bugs. If they handle feedback as bug report nothing will change and personally i think the current situation is a bigger fuckup than ME3 ending was.

 

Edit: angry comment: and they tease you with binding mouse buttons. Almost 4 months after purchasing the game they say its coming soon but its not even in the upcoming beta. And they are talking about priorities in the same blog entry. Cosmetic **** is priority. Ok.

I agree, initially, the focus of the beta testers needs to be patch 5 but, anyone selected does need to be ready to give the devs constructive, respectful feedback on other aspects of the game that are good but, could be better.

 

We all need to remember that this is a new engine for them, and being so tightly under EA's thumb is new as well. If you look into the tech sheets on the engine at all, you see that it is a complex engine with tons of potential. It takes time to figure out which of all of it's capabilities work for DA and which do not. Then more time to figure out how to best use those capabilities in the game. That's where the beta testers can help, yes the devs know we want it and, do their best to make it work, but betas will be able to try it, suggest improvements and, if it can't be done, at least learn why it can't be done and, with permission, perhaps tell the community why it can't be done in terms everyday players understand.

 

"Look at ABC game, the UI is great and, customizable by each player. Can something like that be done in DAI?" is a legitimate question to ask the devs. But, if the answer is not, the engine won't support anything like that, we need to hush and accept that as well.

[Brogan]

I've said it before and I'll say it again.

 

Because consoles.

 

People can continue to regurgitate the same arguments over and over and eventually your circular argument will come right back to this time and time again. Anything's possible. But not everything is probable.

 

Very simply put, Bioware/EA isn't planning on "fixing" PC issues because they simply don't see it to be a problem for them. Their focus will remain on making content "better" for the new UI they've developed using the Frostbite engine, and they will not spend development time re-coding the entire thing for PC because they simply don't care. I'm disappointed, because I would have expected better from a company like EA/Bioware, but as the saying goes... "Fool me once..."

 

They hard-coded the controls for "controllers" instead of mice and keyboards- or what would have been wiser was to add a control interface layer they could have developed separate interfaces for hardware instead of direct hardware interface. (think "translator") Does programming direct hardware commands improve response times? Probably. Does it mean you likely need to take the extra step in developing a separate control interface for each platform? Probably. Did they do that this time around? Absolutely not. It's pretty evident that they can't "fix" it because to do so means re-writing the base code which they're just not going to do. (In fact, I'd be willing to lay money if someone took time to reverse engineer the game they'd see exactly what I'm referring to.)

 

All this said- Is EA/Bioware going to continue to simply ignore their customers who paid for a product that was misrepresented? Probably.

 

Yep, just saw the "patch 5 beta" thread (and it's edit*)...  and this is EXACTLY what I wanted to ask him...

 

I would like to hear the official explanation why this programming group is still unable to provide basic mouse button mapping in a game running on an engine that clearly has the capability for it (Battlefield 4?).  I want to hear somebody like Conal, or Allan (or God forbid, Darrah) say -publicly- that Bioware made this conscious decision to rule out, by way of proprietary hard-coded, foundational programming, common KB&M-specific functionalities like this. 

 

I want to know the person who said - in the room - "it won't effect them", when the question was raised if this philosophy would hinder end user appeal on PC.

 

And I want to know their reasons for it.

 

.......

[Brogan]

Also, in regards to this beta, and who is going to be "chosen" for it, or if it's actually going to be an open beta ...  I honestly don't know what to think. 

 

My $70 was in Bioware's pocket late last summer, however I still have yet to hit the continue button in the CC, and the only spoiler footage I have seen is the pc specific twitch stream Laidlaw did.  I LOVE this universe and I didn't want to ruin my first playthrough.  Still don't.  But I DESPERATELY want to be part of any kind of back and forth with the devs if it's going to affect the pc controls.  I want to hear the answers to those questions. 

 

But seriously?  You wait till patch 5 to make the decision to allow the public to be part of the process?  When many of us have uninstalled the game?  Returned it, stopped playing midway?  Where was this initiative in December?  This is the kind of thing, if done correctly, could have netted you boatloads more cash for Christmas!  It's just amazing.  Who's making these calls fellas?  Some suit in the Bahamas that thinks Dragon Age is some George RR Martin novel?

[House of Dexter]

Conal...I know your game time playing DA:I is probably astronomical...

 

I'm a coder...(not games)...and one of the problems I have...Is to use the controls that I'm most comfortable with...Do you play the game mostly with a Controller or Mouse and Keyboard when you test?  Whats your preferred setup when you use Mouse and Keyboard...do you use Tactical View...or are you a 3rd person view type who pauses and switches...When you test do setups to see if they are playable and fun?  Not trying to point fingers...but I suspect if more time would have been spent playing and not just testingTactical View and Mouse and Keyboard we wouldn't even be having this discussion...

 

This might explain why the disconnect with the PC community...and how in the future BioWare/EA might change things so that it doesn't happen again.

[Sylveria_Relden]

Also, in regards to this beta, and who is going to be "chosen" for it, or if it's actually going to be an open beta ...  I honestly don't know what to think. 

 

As far as I'm concerned, the whole game is still in "beta". You're already part of it, Brogan you accepted it as soon as you hit "Accept" on the purchase button. LOL

[CatatonicMan]

I would like to hear the official explanation why this programming group is still unable to provide basic mouse button mapping in a game running on an engine that clearly has the capability for it (Battlefield 4?).  I want to hear somebody like Conal, or Allan (or God forbid, Darrah) say -publicly- that Bioware made this conscious decision to rule out, by way of proprietary hard-coded, foundational programming, common KB&M-specific functionalities like this.

 

Hard coding is the only reason I can think of that would cause something as simple as a key binding to take months to implement.

 

The thing is, hard coding is bad practice. Really bad. I can't imagine the programmers doing it at all, even for something like a console.

 

It makes no sense. None of this makes sense. Yet here we are.

[Sylveria_Relden]

Hard coding is the only reason I can think of that would cause something as simple as a key binding to take months to implement.

 

The thing is, hardcoding is bad practice. Really bad. I can't imagine the programmers doing it at all, even for something like a console.

 

It makes no sense. None of this makes sense. Yet here we are.

 

I'm in total agreement. I'm actually a designer- and one of my base design philosophies has always been:

 

"modular NOT monolithic".

 

 

When you code, design, or develop anything to be monolithic, it means you've gotta redo from scratch... when you do it modularly, you can simply remove the pieces you wish to improve without breaking everything.

[WAND0]

PLEASE HAVE THE MOUSE MOVEMENT CONTROLS, FIXED FOR PATCH 5.

 

I have about 5 mins playing this game and I wish I could return it until, I knew you fixed this problem because you don't deserve my money. You did not make this game for PC gamers and it was postpone a year so you could work with the next gen consoles, Xbox ONE and PS4. 

 

UNLOCK THE CONTROLS OR LET PEOPLE RETURN THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Archerwarden]

My hope when they do choose people to beta test they will not eliminate those who have been critical of the game/controls etc. Hoping they will be smart enough to pick knowledgeable people like those here (not me by they way).

 

No, I am serious. And a  just a bit concerned.

 

 

Edited to add: I know what I posted is kind of silly but am worried they will only pick yes men and not learned critical thinkers. You guys; Bethgael, Rizilliant, Dark Amanath1966, Sartoz, Ncongruous, Brogan, Jackal19851111, Tobyjake, DisturbedJim83, Errantionatus, CrusaderBin, Hazegurl, Peregrinus, Cyan Griffonclaw, Sylvanie Relden, Asden Nedra ( sorry I think that's right)  (sorry if I forgot any) - are so knowledgeable and  well Bioware could really use your help.

[FOE]

This console focus from the very beginning was only really obvious to me until AFTER I purchased - and tried in vain to play/enjoy this game on my PC.  I had bought into the lies from Bioware, the carefully filmed teasers/trailers omitting the controls being used.  I saw flashy, graphical screens, filled with action and heard a lot of lip service and embellishment.  Hook, line and stinker (pun intended).  They got me.  In programming this game with consoles in mind - from the ground up - they inherently limited the functionality of the game on a PC (with M+KB controls).  Five months passed as programmers struggled to finally code in a "walk toggle button"...simply amazing.  That's the big fix for PC gamers, this time around.  Maybe we'll finally get "auto-fire" in the next proposed patch (#5)?  This shouldn't have been that laborious of a process, but their direction from the beginning was flawed.  FOUR years it took to bring this to market, and 5 months after, it's still unplayable by many* PC gamer's standards.  Bioware, EA and Microsoft can take their controllers and stick them where the sun don't shine.


*I will just say "many" (PC gamer's) and not "most", as I won't talk for the masses and I don't have the hard figures to back them up - It might not be a "majority", but there is definitely a significant portion of PC gamer's that are upset with the controls/UI.  That's obvious at this point.

[FOE]

You know, considering how vocal and demanding us PC gamers can be, I wonder if this trend will continue in the future.  Hopefully it doesn't.  PC games should be developed with traditional PC controls (and gamers) in mind.  Surely, EA/Booware have received a PR black-eye with this latest error in judgment.  Console games sell, there are a lot of casual gamers, but they don't outnumber PC gamers.  Maybe we've all made a difference.  A refocus of what's ultimately important and what drives an industry is needed for this franchise.  Unless they really do desire for us to "play" a slightly interactive action movie.  I hope not.  I miss great tactical, challenging games like Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age:Origins.

[Elhanan]

You know, considering how vocal and demanding us PC gamers can be, I wonder if this trend will continue in the future.  Hopefully it doesn't.  PC games should be developed with traditional PC controls (and gamers) in mind.  Surely, EA/Booware have received a PR black-eye with this latest error in judgment.  Console games sell, there are a lot of casual gamers, but they don't outnumber PC gamers.  Maybe we've all made a difference.  A refocus of what's ultimately important and what drives an industry is needed for this franchise.  Unless they really do desire for us to "play" a slightly interactive action movie.  I hope not.  I miss great tactical, challenging games like Neverwinter Nights and Dragon Age:Origins.

Considering the little I know, both XCOM and Shadowrun Returns: Dragonfall are fairly successful tactical lauches. XCOM was even mentioned in the descriptive part of DAI Tac-Cam mode at some point, so hopefully more will be considered in future titles.

But only speaking for myself, but as a PC only user, consoles are here to stay, even if only for systems that run from the PC. And seeing as I focus mostly on RPG's, I would say that I am the casual gamer in the mix. So likely, PC only games will likely be rare, IMO.

[Wbino]

I have a question for you guys since Ive recently playing DAO for the first time since 2009 .....

 

When they did the publicity ramp up for this game with video playthroughs, did they show what the players were using(controller/kbm?)

[FOE]

@Elhanan - I realize that consoles are here to stay, there definitely has been a market for the casual gaming experience ever since I was a child.  Our family had a Atari2600 back in the 1977 or '78, BEFORE I got my first personal computer (Atari800 on Xmas 1979) and started to learn programming.  What I'm saying is that the consoles come and go, but PC's are always there.  There are depressions in certain industries and some companies fold and discontinue producing consoles.  The margins are very slim on console sales and for EA to put their eggs in one basket is foolhardy.  Ignore their core, and they'll suffer the financial consequences.  Bioware's core was PC gamers, and now they're rudderless, trying to appease everyone, and in the worst possible way. Their priorities are off, IMO.  That's what I'm trying to allude to - DA:O was ported to the consoles, and done well.  You simply can't to the opposite.  It doesn't work for this type of game/franchise.


#Wbino - I didn't see any pictures/video of what people's hands were doing.  I just expected (wrongly) that they were using a mouse and keyboard.

[Ghostsaxon]

The truth is PC Users and DA Inquisition suffered because they devolped the game to run on 360 and ps3.  forcing the game to run on that old tech hurt the overall quality of what DA Inquisistion could have been if they devolped it to run only on modern updated tech. PC, PS4 and xbox One..  but its to late now we just have to wait for mass effect 4 and witcher 3 . which was designed only for modern tech.

 

 

DA inquisition is still a great game, just with many flaws

[FOE]

Performance-wise, you're probably correct.  Developing this game to run on legacy console platforms ALSO limited this game for the PC.  It didn't allow for more efficient rigs to take advantage of it's hardware.  The game was initially "dumbed down" to sell more games, and if you believe that it took FOUR years to develop, then that's understandable.  The game's playability, control-wise (and UI)  was limited by ANY console focus from the beginning.  It limited the PC gaming experience.

[Rizilliant]

I don't agree. The game is rated M(ature) and, the beta testers will need to sign a Do Not Disclose Agreement. So for both of those reasons, EA/Bioware needs to screen potential testers and, insure they are 18+ and will be legally bound by the agreement they sign in the country in which they live.

 

In addition, we've all seen the rude, inflammatory posts on these forums, they don't need testers that will simply tell them "it sucks, fix it or I'm never buying anything form you again." or worse so, by making it a closed beta,  they can reject those people as well and, end up with those that are willing to risk it and, who will provide sensible, constructive feedback and, not get angry because it has some problems.

 

Why wasn't it in the game to begin with? My personal guess is that the devs wanted it there but, it needed more work and more testing and, marketing demanded that game be released NOW so, they had to leave it out and continue working on it for later addition.

Im more inclined to agree with "select few" being more their flavor over of age... Not that im in any way suggesting, that these forums/social media play a part.. I just mean, the same "select few" types that may get early review copies, or are known in the industry! I forsee a small, closed, very exclusive club of "fans/associates"!

 

That said, i havent read anywhere that theyre down to "skeleton crew" size already...  Having released a game in less than working order, and having so much in terms still needing fixing.. They know, and we know the game was rushed... I seriously doubt theyre in post game-mode yet..

 

@Wbino: theres a video quite well known for it.. You can actually find it posted allover this forum, and youtibe, etc.. Throughout the vid, your assuming theyre talking about m+kb, and then suddenly, BAM.. You realize its been controller all along..

 

@FOE: that conversation will get you no where, i assure you.. You are wasting your breath...

[Rizilliant]

Nobody's stopping you. Go play another game then  

 Guess he got banned on his real account.... Nothing like the power of anonymity....Make an accoun, post the same exact sentence 7 times, leave.. So sad!  

[Sylveria_Relden]

But only speaking for myself, but as a PC only user, consoles are here to stay, even if only for systems that run from the PC. And seeing as I focus mostly on RPG's, I would say that I am the casual gamer in the mix. So likely, PC only games will likely be rare, IMO.

 

I speak only for myself as well

 

But- I think I also speak for many here when I say that it's not the fact that they made it for consoles that's the issue- it's that not only did they misrepresent the product as being developed for a PC- but then they made it godess-awfully unplayable with a keyboard and mouse. Anyone who doubts this should question why there's proportionally so many archers versus DW rogues. (or any other ranged versus melee class for that matter)

 

Quite simply if they hadn't misrepresented the product- many here would have simply not bought it and would in turn be much happier, and it likely would have saved the customer relationships with EA/Bioware, instead of driving an arrogant "we'll do as we please and you'll give us your money anyway" wedge in between everyone.

[Sylveria_Relden]

 Guess he got banned on his real account.... Nothing like the power of anonymity....Make an accoun, post the same exact sentence 7 times, leave.. So sad!  

 

Nothing like "internet courage".

[Elhanan]

I speak only for myself as well
 
But- I think I also speak for many here when I say that it's not the fact that they made it for consoles that's the issue- it's that not only did they misrepresent the product as being developed for a PC- but then they made it godess-awfully unplayable with a keyboard and mouse. Anyone who doubts this should question why there's proportionally so many archers versus DW rogues. (or any other ranged versus melee class for that matter)
 
Quite simply if they hadn't misrepresented the product- many here would have simply not bought it and would in turn be much happier, and it likely would have saved the customer relationships with EA/Bioware, instead of driving an arrogant "we'll do as we please and you'll give us your money anyway" wedge in between everyone.

Personally am content with the game, though I do look forward to the next patch. As for melee characters, it would seem that the closing abilities are helpful. In my brief tutorial experiences, I prefer the 2H.

Some here think it is poor; I do not. And based on commentary elsewhere, hours played, and reviews seen beyond here, I am hardly alone in this view.

Hope those with real troubles (eg; CTD) get fixes soon.

[DisturbedJim83]

The truth is PC Users and DA Inquisition suffered because they devolped the game to run on 360 and ps3.  forcing the game to run on that old tech hurt the overall quality of what DA Inquisistion could have been if they devolped it to run only on modern updated tech. PC, PS4 and xbox One..  but its to late now we just have to wait for mass effect 4 and witcher 3 . which was designed only for modern tech.

 

 

DA inquisition is still a great game, just with many flaws

mostly true though its very disingenuous to call XB1 and PS4 "modern" by PC standards they are very slow and antiquated you'd be looking at some $350-$450 entry level "everyday PC" or laptop from Dell etc if you were going to compare spec for spec.

[TobyJake]

I'm in total agreement. I'm actually a designer- and one of by base design philosophies has always been:

 

"modular NOT monolithic".

 

 

When you code, design, or develop anything to be monolithic, it means you've gotta redo from scratch... when you do it modularly, you can simply remove the pieces you wish to improve without breaking everything.

This!! 1000 times this!

Computer Programming 101!

Someone did not read Game Development for Dummies

Its not Frostbyte that's the problem, its bad design from the ground up.

If they have made the mistake I think they have, then a beta tested patch will not be enough to save them. If it is too hard to include a mouse button or an extra ability, then it is far too late. Shifting the deck chairs on the Titanic.