19127 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

I think the bottom line is none of the people who designed the m&kb interface for Dragon Age Inquisition had any actual experience designing games for mouse and keyboard.

 

I seem to remember thinking this same thing back in August...

 

This is pretty remarkable if true especially given the made for PC video Laidlaw made. If true it is yet more evidence of incompetent project management by those at the top. Plus theres the whole issue of how it wasnt picked up in testing or if it was why it wasnt acted upon.

[KilrB]

This is pretty remarkable if true especially given the made for PC video Laidlaw made. If true it is yet more evidence of incompetent project management by those at the top. Plus theres the whole issue of how it wasnt picked up in testing or if it was why it wasnt acted upon.

 

He has never let the truth stand in his way.

 

He is EA to the core.

[KilrB]

Looks like the revolution has begun ...

[Brogan]

.....From looks of things too the majority of the team has already been reallocated by EA, to them, the product is shipped, now to cut costs ......

 

Ironic, as to many, the product is still in beta, and to me personally, the product has yet to be released.  I look at it that way, at least.

[Archerwarden]

This is very likely, based on what we've seen thus far, including what I've read from other posters who met the new team. "Cultural disconnect", perhaps even a "generation gap". Speaking of the "console generation" there are many young PC gamers but it seems they didn't get the job. Considering DA's success on the console market however I'm sure HR is pleased with themselves and this won't change.
 
The suggestions people have made are not exactly extravagant, it's either industry standard PC controls or controls that already existed in past DA games for PC. We shouldn't have to spell it out for them but we are, and they are having alot of difficulty implementing them. Just treat "Bioware" as you would a JRPG company - expect console ports.
 
From looks of things too the majority of the team has already been reallocated by EA, to them, the product is shipped, now to cut costs for post-release support since they spent a huge amount for marketing. It's typical of them to go big on marketing then to have budget QA. For an AAA title their patching process is very shocking, but it's typical EA. I still remember on R2TW's launch it was absolutely unplayable, but in 3 months it was already a different game thanks to the very active team - and as an apology they gave fans who pre-ordered Empire Edition for free which is pretty much another game. I was already playing after 1 week post launch - not to mention the amount of mods that picked up CA's slack such as STIM (so they got away with alot of crap thanks to mod support like Bethesda)
 
DA doesn't have the luxury of a sizable post-release team or supported moddability. We're using CE and AHS to fix the controls but even then modders are still figuring it out while the game is fighting against them at the same time. It's just a mess. Patch 5 beta will help keep the product from major oversights from now on (if they continue public betas), but in the end I don't see DAI being PC-friendly until late 2015 or 2016. Folks should move on to other games for now, maybe come back when it's all done.

Thank you Jackal1985111
That was very informative.
So what I take from this is the focus is on consoles period. Wonder why they could not hire consultants. Its a shame and if it is another year - I'm not waiting and coming back to DAI- its not worth it. TW3 comes out in May - There is Steam and non EA/Bioware games and that's where my dollar will go. And Bioware doesn't care.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Or maybe they have played other games that use a very similar control scheme for KB+M and, it was a small thing to adapt to it, which is expected with any new game. Sure some functions could be improved and, we could use an auto attack closest target when an ability is activated but, the controls are not horrible, just need a couple fo additions and some improvement to the way some commands function (like Hold)

[Brockololly]

 I still remember on R2TW's launch it was absolutely unplayable, but in 3 months it was already a different game thanks to the very active team - and as an apology they gave fans who pre-ordered Empire Edition for free which is pretty much another game. I was already playing after 1 week post launch - not to mention the amount of mods that picked up CA's slack such as STIM (so they got away with alot of crap thanks to mod support like Bethesda)

 

DA doesn't have the luxury of a sizable post-release team or supported moddability. We're using CE and AHS to fix the controls but even then modders are still figuring it out while the game is fighting against them at the same time. It's just a mess. Patch 5 beta will help keep the product from major oversights from now on (if they continue public betas), but in the end I don't see DAI being PC-friendly until late 2015 or 2016. Folks should move on to other games for now, maybe come back when it's all done.

 

Rome 2 was a hot mess at launch (as was Empire). But to Creative Assembly's credit, they have patched the hell out of their games post release- regularly and they communicated with the community on a regular basis to let them know what was going on.  Even go back to Shogun 2 where people were ticked off that they weren't supporting mods. They communicated with the community and came out with a modding toolset post launch. BioWare could really learn a thing or two from CA.

 

So while the Patch 5 beta seems like a good idea, I expect more from BioWare given their PC roots. Sad thing is that all seems mostly in the past now. They're making console games and porting them to PC with barebones resources being devoted to those efforts. The state of Dragon Age as a PC franchise is really pathetic at this point and BioWare should be embarrassed with the PC version. Is it functional more often than not? Yeah, for some people. Its not completely broken, no. But it would be nice to at least have the same levels of functionality as we had with Origins. It would be nice to think BioWare could top a six year old game in terms of functionality. They could if they wanted to- they've got talented people there. But they didn't and after that whole "Made for PC gamers by PC gamers!" load of bologna, releasing some sort of official toolset would be about the only thing they could do at this point to make me think they were serious about supporting the PC versions of their games beyond the absolute bare minimum.

 

 

Thank god for Obsidian and Pillars of Eternity for picking up where BioWare dropped off after Origins.

[Brogan]

This is very likely, based on what we've seen thus far, including what I've read from other posters who met the new team. "Cultural disconnect", perhaps even a "generation gap". Speaking of the "console generation" there are many young PC gamers but it seems they didn't get the job. Considering DA's success on the console market however I'm sure HR is pleased with themselves and this won't change.

 

The suggestions people have made are not exactly extravagant, it's either industry standard PC controls or controls that already existed in past DA games for PC. We shouldn't have to spell it out for them but we are, and they are having alot of difficulty implementing them. Just treat "Bioware" as you would a JRPG company - expect console ports.

 

From looks of things too the majority of the team has already been reallocated by EA, to them, the product is shipped, now to cut costs for post-release support since they spent a huge amount for marketing. It's typical of them to go big on marketing then to have budget QA. For an AAA title their patching process is very shocking, but it's typical EA. I still remember on R2TW's launch it was absolutely unplayable, but in 3 months it was already a different game thanks to the very active team - and as an apology they gave fans who pre-ordered Empire Edition for free which is pretty much another game. I was already playing after 1 week post launch - not to mention the amount of mods that picked up CA's slack such as STIM (so they got away with alot of crap thanks to mod support like Bethesda)

 

DA doesn't have the luxury of a sizable post-release team or supported moddability. We're using CE and AHS to fix the controls but even then modders are still figuring it out while the game is fighting against them at the same time. It's just a mess. Patch 5 beta will help keep the product from major oversights from now on (if they continue public betas), but in the end I don't see DAI being PC-friendly until late 2015 or 2016. Folks should move on to other games for now, maybe come back when it's all done.

 

If they continue public betas ...  Hmm..  on one hand you can make the argument that doing this (and we've yet to see exactly how Bioware plans to execute this) is a way to cut costs for support as hopefully the community is able to "cut the fat" and give these console designers trying to fix PC code the help they need. 

 

On the other hand, this whole thing could be a stunt, and the community will be given a separate forum, talking points, the whole 9, and eventually no actual "input" used because "unfortunately we were not able to get this feature into the beta, but are working on it for the future."  A gimmick to ensure the PC community (and our money) remain loyal without any actual substance with which loyalty should be earned.

 

In fact, the exact same gimmick they managed by withholding certain key info about the pc UI before the release of the game...

 

Who knows...

[TobyJake]

Why do you need beta testers to implement UI features? I can see the point of beta testing for large plot changes, like Shale or Tallis or &^%$# Coryphenis but why go into this PR stunt of beta testing when there are no tactics and 8 useable slots on the toolbar?

The devil will be in the detail, but after "By PC Gamers for PC Gamers", I do not think BW can afford to put one foot wrong. It will require honesty and truth, something that has been nonexistent since 18 November 2014.

[kalikilic]

is this game good enough to play on PC now? last time i tried it was still hitching and controls were still awful (this was sometime in november last year, but after the first patch i think)

[Bethgael]

Why do you need beta testers to implement UI features? I can see the point of beta testing for large plot changes, like Shale or Tallis or &^%$# Coryphenis but why go into this PR stunt of beta testing when there are no tactics and 8 useable slots on the toolbar?

The devil will be in the detail, but after "By PC Gamers for PC Gamers", I do not think BW can afford to put one foot wrong. It will require honesty and truth, something that has been nonexistent since 18 November 2014.

 

It's because most of the remaining team is genuinely riddled with console expertise, and that, maybe, they now know what they don't know--given they've lost most of their best PC-expertise people from when Bioware was more Bioware-ish. (This is not to say there isn't any, just that, given the focus is now on consoles from EA, it actually makes sense that EA would hire more people that have that experience).

I have come to realise that, perhaps, they have been genuinely surprised by the fact the PC UI has been taken so badly.

 

Also, look up the thread. With the caveat that I agree this has been a cluster-eff from the beginning and it shouldn't've happened (as people on this thread know): Some have asked for more testing and have offered to help.  Others have asked for ways to fix the face issues from Patch 2 (such as  a Black Emporium). We're being given what was asked for. So, why are people now objecting to that?

This is me trying to be generously optimistic about the whole thing.

[DarkAmaranth1966]

Every beta testing program has to start someplace. Bioware might be coming to it a bit late but, they are here now. I hope this works to benefit everyone who plays the game and, I'm willing to let them give it a go and see what it brings. Hopefully as good as other beta programs i have been involved in. If that's the end result, then the game will be better, maybe not 100% bug free and, you'll never please every single person all of the time but, better none the less. No tester is going to find every single little glitch but, with the beta program a lot more of them should be found before public release and, that makes it worth doing.

[Brogan]

It's because most of the remaining team is genuinely riddled with console expertise, and that, maybe, they now know what they don't know--given they've lost most of their best PC-expertise people from when Bioware was more Bioware-ish. (This is not to say there isn't any, just that, given the focus is now on consoles from EA, it actually makes sense that EA would hire more people that have that experience).

I have come to realise that, perhaps, they have been genuinely surprised by the fact the PC UI has been taken so badly.

 

Also, look up the thread. With the caveat that I agree this has been a cluster-eff from the beginning and it shouldn't've happened (as people on this thread know): Some have asked for more testing and have offered to help.  Others have asked for ways to fix the face issues from Patch 2 (such as  a Black Emporium). We're being given what was asked for. So, why are people now objecting to that?

This is me trying to be generously optimistic about the whole thing.

 

It would be interesting to go through the available personnel records of Bioware employees dating back to Origins, looking at each of their backgrounds in programming pre-hire and then seeing what they've gone on to do after leaving.  And to compare them to the current versions, just to see how much overlapping from console to pc developing there actually is.

 

Clearly that's way too much work, it's unlikely those records are open to the public, and it ultimately wouldn't really matter as people get hired for any number of reasons...

 

You make a good point Beth, and the "it is what it is" angle is one that I also usually end up leaning towards.  These programmers are just doing their jobs.  However, Black Emporium notwithstanding, the answer to the question of are we being given what was asked for is, let's just say... open to interpretation.
 

[DavianBurke]

Best thing to come out of these 500+ pages: Exposure to the new D&D game. Looks great. Like I wish this game was. 

[Bethgael]

It would be interesting to go through the available personnel records of Bioware employees dating back to Origins, looking at each of their backgrounds in programming pre-hire and then seeing what they've gone on to do after leaving.  And to compare them to the current versions, just to see how much overlapping from console to pc developing there actually is.

 

Clearly that's way too much work, it's unlikely those records are open to the public, and it ultimately wouldn't really matter as people get hired for any number of reasons...

 

You make a good point Beth, and the "it is what it is" angle is one that I also usually end up leaning towards.  These programmers are just doing their jobs.  However, Black Emporium notwithstanding, the answer to the question of are we being given what was asked for is, let's just say... open to interpretation.
 

 

I probably should have said "some of what we asked for" as a point of accuracy.

[spacefiddle]

Only to blow on the smoldering embers of discontent and fan the flames of revolt.

 

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this Beta Emporium;
And all the clouds that low'r'd upon our mouse
In the deep storage of the Undercroft buried.

[TobyJake]

@Bethgael

You make a very good point. I should stop a smell the roses I think. Perhaps BW don't have the people or are suffering from tunnel vision enforced by Microsoft/Sony.

I should take the hint and be more optomistic!

[Jackal19851111]

On the other hand, this whole thing could be a stunt, and the community will be given a separate forum, talking points, the whole 9, and eventually no actual "input" used because "unfortunately we were not able to get this feature into the beta, but are working on it for the future."  A gimmick to ensure the PC community (and our money) remain loyal without any actual substance with which loyalty should be earned.

 

For me personally, I'm reserving judgement for now, it could be a stunt but time will tell.

 

Rome 2 was a hot mess at launch (as was Empire). But to Creative Assembly's credit, they have patched the hell out of their games post release- regularly and they communicated with the community on a regular basis to let them know what was going on.  Even go back to Shogun 2 where people were ticked off that they weren't supporting mods. They communicated with the community and came out with a modding toolset post launch. BioWare could really learn a thing or two from CA.

 

 

Agreed, CA were very accountable as well, they acknowledged the issues at launch, apologised, and worked their ass off patch after patch.

-> In 3 months many major issues were acknowledged and changed (turn wait times optimised, no more magic flags, no more slinger-transport-fleets, etc etc - those were my gamebreakers), and they kept patching, didn't stop, and even if you weren't happy - MODS. Acknowledging they p-ssed off alot of fans they also gave us Empire Edition for free - what R2TW should have been at launch (and yes, I can recommend it).

 

Bioware used to be like that:

-> In 3 months they released the extended cut for free, giving us alot of closure and although many weren't happy in the end - I know I was. Then they released Citadel DLC which proved that they loved the characters as much as their fans did.

 

Enough that I pre-ordered DAI... to encounter this...

 -> 3 months for a walk toggle!!!!

 

 

Oh well, looking forward to Attila: Total War (I still reckon the release will be buggy - CA is quite famous for it, but I trust their post-release support)

DAI and "Bioware" for me is on a pivoting point, faith is lost in the brand but with recent news, it could be a turning point when it comes to proving that the new folks at "Bioware" can fit into the legendary shoes of those before.

 

Skeptical yes, even with public beta testing, and promised transparency between fans/devs, time will tell...

[Archerwarden]

We're being given what was asked for. So, why are people now objecting to that?

Are we? I'm not so sure. Didn't Mr. Pierce say mouse binding, party banter will not be in the next patch?

I am glad they are doing the beta testing but I cannot help I have no expertise to offer and the best I can come up with is Maker That's Wonky! I do not know why things are not working just that they aren't. Its this forum that helped me to understand that I was looking at a console port to disable origin in game.

But even I knew something was very wrong with the pc controls, combat and companion ai and Inventory layout on 19 November. How could Bioware not know if I could? How could they be surprised by anything? Its hard to believe that. Didn't they beta test last March or May? What happened?

You know I don't know how the industry works but I understand business and manufacturing and there is no way possible the Execs atBioware did not know about the PC issues, wonky combat and companion ai, banter bug, dragon glitches, Inventory interface before rollout. There is always someone to speak up - always and QA does know. Whether the Execs listened is another story. How could a pc game not have knowledgeable pc people on team unless it was by design.

Look, I wish it didn't happen either and I feel sorry for all the good hardworking people at that company, they put their heart and soul into the game. I wish only the best for them. And it saddens me greatly.

I am a huge DA fan (ME and all their other games) still play them all, buy the books, gone to the panels. Even with all the issues past and present I still enjoy the DAI game. The companion quest writing, companions, graphics, ceilings are as ever excellent.

But how much good will and patience am I suppose to have. Another year is too long to wait for these fixes. How long must I wait for the ability to bind keys and mouse that is pretty standard in pc games? Not to mention the still Iron Bull dialog bug, dragon bug, disappearing equipped inventory item at each load, poor pc inventory screen, wonky ai companion coding and combat.

When a game franchise is known for its excellent writing, story rich, dialog heavy banter but can not or will not put the banter bug as top or 2nd to top priority something is very very wrong.

So, yes I am frustrated and annoyed and heartbroken and saddened.

Honesty, Integrity, Responsibility, Respect for customers, Goodwill - it matters, it matters to me anyways.

My apologies for the long post.

[Errationatus]

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this Beta Emporium;
And all the clouds that low'r'd upon our mouse
In the deep storage of the Undercroft buried.

Plots have they have laid, inductions dangerous,
By faultless playthroughs, libels, and 'pre-alpha builds',
To set my brother PC and the console
In deadly hate the one against the other;
And if Emporium be as true and just
As the toxic scum are subtle, false, and treacherous,
This day should PC-ers closely be mewed up
About a prophecy which says that EA
Of Bioware's heirs the murderer shall be.
 

[Bethgael]

Archerwarden, if you read my first post on the matter, you'll see I essentially agree with you (it's on the first page). Context for a quote--always good.

[Suhiira]

is this game good enough to play on PC now? last time i tried it was still hitching and controls were still awful (this was sometime in november last year, but after the first patch i think)

No better then it was in November.

In theory after Patch 5 it should be fairly PC friendly.

[Randomguy]

...I just want a (Insert cuss word) RPG game I can play on my computer for my game time, not some silly  childs game that is dumbed down for the mass of idiots that call themselves gamers now a days....

 

Pretty much summs up what i thought not much after i launched the game . Its good for a casual sunday whack'em type of game though at least. If they get patch 5 done properly.

[TobyJake]

I really miss being able to talk to a party member. Origins created some wonderful moments. Immersion was so good.

You could talk to Morrigan or Leliana no matter what you were doing. And banter was excellent too.

Feels very plastic having to go to Skyhold to ask a question!! It all changed with DA2 I guess, but that was a strange game as far as companions were concerned. Oh well.